Starting to see why people thought we were all complaining about the Nid Dex only cause it wasn't OP

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**Bharring**

Well at least Malantai + Pod is gone... his ability to drop an infantry cluster then kill an army always bothered me more than getting my face smashed in by Iron Arm swarms... If he's not intercepted, and I went infantry heavy, it was GG.

That, and the one time I managed to get into melee with him, he solo'ed Asuraman (I need new dice).

**PrinceRaven**

Ah, Doom, people were so scared of the little bugger and its low average damage output.

**SHUPPET**

PrinceRaven wrote:
Ah, Doom, people were so scared of the little bugger and its low average damage output.

Yeah. Maybe I'm being the revisionist here but I never felt Doom was that great. He was cool and fun, but not very strong. He was cheese in the typical sense of the term. Not how people on here use the term as if its interchangeable with "OP", but cheese in the sense that he will work well and help you table someone if your opponent brought the wrong list, or if your opponent plays badly. However you can't rely on this and it's actually a bad thing to rely on, and he was so inconsistent I generally just packed him when I was building a new list that I knew wasn't refined yet anyway, just so I could show off my model. He was generally the first thing to go when I started tweaking. It was always interesting to see if he would dominate or just feed an expensive kill point for one S8 shot.

**PrinceRaven**

I always found the using the fear of the Doom to distract my opponent's deployment and distract their Strength 8 shooting units to be much more useful than the Doom's actual damage.

It was cheap enough that my opponent could immediately take it down with a few Krak Missiles and I'd still be satisfied that it did its job.

**Kilkrazy**

chaos0xomega wrote:
Kain wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
I'd take a bland codex over a digital only codex that hasn't seen a single new model added to it since 3rd edition.

"Hey, transexuals never faced a concerted effort at genociding them away like the Jews have, so they shouldn't complain."

Extreme, yes.

But your logic is identical and equally fallacious.

And this ladies and gentlemen, right here, is a rather awesomely ironic example of a logical fallacy, in this particular case, the fallacy is known as 'reductio ad absurdum'

Reductio ad absurdam is not a logical fallacy.

**Bharring**

Reducto ad absurdum is a fallacy is a fallacy (that was too much fun to type...)

Doom's damage potential was huge against certain list types. Anything infantry-heavy without ubiquitous invulns. As long as you podded him, allowing him to eat any target before he gets shot at.

**PrinceRaven**

Reductio ad absurdum is a perfectly valid argument form when it isn't being used to construct a straw man argument (in which case the straw man is the invalid part of the argument).

Doom's damage potential was good against low leadership armies, but at the same time low leadership armies normally have cheap enough troops that they can afford to lose a few.

**Makumba**

Reductio ad absurdam is not a logical fallacy.

Plus gay , transsexual etc people were persecuted by the nazis . They even had their own sign . Red was for communits , yellow for jews , black for criminals and pink was gay and transsexual people . Not a good example then.

**rigeld2**

Bharring wrote:
Doom's damage potential was huge against certain list types. Anything infantry-heavy without ubiquitous invulns. As long as you podded him, allowing him to eat any target before he gets shot at.

Doom was good against low LD armies that couldn't grab cover and that didn't have a lot of small arms fire or a lot of S8 shooting.
Doom directly won me ... 1 game? Maybe 2? In all of my time with the 5th edition codex.
The reason he was so effective is because of the fear he instilled. It significantly changed my opponents deployment every time. For the first turn it limited his movement - for the second turn and further everyone literally scattered, tripping over themselves to run away from it.

My worst loss ever was against a Necron silver horde that ignored Doom for two turns because he did 0 wounds (missed my charge distance to get stuck into assault) and when I finally did 3 wounds, he fired a bunch of small arms and killed it. He didn't let it change his deployment. He didn't let it scare him from moving around, or force him to stay in cover... he paid about as much attention to it as he would a tac squad.

Which is about the right amount.

**Eddtheman**

When I first heard that Tyranids were going to be updated, I was very excited. Overall, I feel that the changes to armies and the core rules show GWs main push for 6th edition is that players can and should be able to build whatever they want. Armies can take allies to recreate forces usually only allowed in the fiction. It feels to me like GW is trying to say "Take your IG, add a SM strike force, include an inquisitor to watch over everyone, add a tau battlesuit cadre, add a fortress, add whatever you'd like, it's your game" I'd hoped that the new Tyranid codex would take their 6th edition concepts and add them to Tyranids, an army that used to give players the MOST choices and options.

And then I got the book.
TO say I was let down would be an understatement. This is the first major release in IDK how long that actually lost options. For all its faults, I actually felt like the concepts that Cruddace included in the previous book were great. He made the army rely more on synergy and introduced the all-reserved nid army. I feel like the army lost most of its synergy and it definitely lost it's previous deployment options. It also lost it's BRB psychic powers; now the only book in the game to not have access, either on its own or through allies. Instinctive Behavior became more of a hindrance and Synapse less of a benefit. Besides the venomthrope, units in the previous book that attempted to build synergy lost these options. Units in the previous codex that were auto include lost some of their power (I think everyone expected that) but may of the less played options had at best a lateral shift in terms of effectiveness None of the new options change the feel of the new army or change how the army played in the previous edition.
In the old book, I usually ran either swarm nids or drop nids. My no-shooting drop nid army is not an option any more. I cant use the ymgarls or mycetic spores any longer. My swarm army, which actually included hormagaunts and carnifeces, looks like it stayed roughly the same size as before. Points drops were eaten up by adding options and points increases in other units. When I look at my army with the new book, I see largely the same army with less options and less flavor. Sything talons lost their only rules, Toxin and Adrenal glands on gaunts became prohibitively expensive to the point that they are no longer options, IB made running hordes of small gribblies even less attractive, as the death of a synapse creature can cause the unit to rout or attack itself.

Anyone who played tyranids in the previous edition could tell you the the problems that plagues the tyranid army. Small Gribblies were too expensive to be anything but small unit objective holders. Nids had very few options for dealing with tanks and flyers. Mid-sized monsters were too expensive for only t4, genestealers did not have the staying power to survive in an edition with overwatch, interceptor, and no assaults from the board edge. TMCs were too expensive for a WS 3 3-5 attack model, and died way too easily to most things in the game.

I feel that the reason that most Nid players are complaining, even though many have not had the opportunity to play the new book, is that a single read through will show anyone with an understanding of the previous codex that the fundamental issues that plagued the previous codex and weakened the army overall were not addressed. Yes many options dropped in cost, but I feel that those units ended up being costed what they should have been in the last codex, in addition to receiving a drop in effectiveness. In addition, alot of the options that myself and many tyranid players felt would give us options were not added. In an edition that is all about adding more choices and options to one's army, tyranid players are on the outside looking in and were not given anything to make up for the exclusion of BRB psychic powers, fortifications or allies.

This is what I said when the book came out and I'm sticking to it

**streamdragon**

For the low low price of $14.99 you can have your old scything talons back!*

*For Carnifexes only. Only when taken as part of a formation. Formations not allowed in all gaming settings. Please speak to your TO for tournament information regarding formations. If rashes, chitin or hive mind like thoughts begin, please stop using formations and see your closest inquisitor.

**PrinceRaven**

I would so rather have old Scything Talons than rerolls to wound. You can get that anyway with Toxin Sacs, it's hitting with a WS 3 model that's the problem.

**davethepak**

Most of the nid players in my area still feel the same about the book, the formations have not changed that.

A couple of the new data-slates have some "useful" formations in them, but many folks feel they are a bit too....excessive in their requirements for individual play styles (how many of what????).

Personally, I was a bit disappointed in them (for many of the reasons stated many times before) and also in just the lack of more...options.

I was hoping for things like "add this special zone thrope, and you get to pick your power for your tyrant" or something to boost some of the existing weaknesses.

I mean, I have NEVER played a game with my carnifexes and thought "man, if only I could split fire this unit...".

Or my walking tyrant and said "wow, if only this guy had more synapse...."

Or "man, I just can't seem to wound with my carnifexs, I wish I had rerolls to wound with them..."

No, I said things like -
* the scything talon nerf and a lack of any way to get to hit rerolls is big, I hope I get something in a dataslate.
* a walking tyrant is so easily killed, I hope I get something to make him more survivable.
* I love raveners, I hope they get something to make them more survivable.
* warriors are only useful in a few very distinct builds/playstyles - man it would be nice if they were more useful over all.
* The haurspex is a cool model, and *almost* good enough to take, I hope he gets a boost...

etc.

Again, NONE of this is about power or the book (have not lost a game yet with the new book) - its about all the previous complaints - and after many games, I feel they are still valid.

Take the new slate for example - do any of these guys writing the material actually play the game?

Time for some new blood or less "yes men" in the design studio.

**Rotary**

My army is moving more towards skyblight to help it balance out against my resident tau player but it isn't an answer, just a crutch.
Sure they gave us a few good flyers, flying hive tyrants were already a solid choice before, but they randomly made so-so and balanced units worse. I've given up worrying about this codex because it can't/wont be fixed until the next rewrite.

**davethepak**

Ah, one thing I can say, is that in my experience in ACTUAL PLAY the IB rules are not as bad as they first seemed.

In several of them you still control the movement of the models, and thus can manage the "attack closest" provision.

Oh, its still a pain to not control your own army, but its just not as bad as many had thought (again, people need to actually read them carefully, and play games).

**PrinceRaven**

In my experience Instinctive Behaviour is absolutely awful if you do not build your list to minimise its impact as much as possible, resulting in restrictive list building.

**davethepak**

PrinceRaven wrote:
In my experience Instinctive Behaviour is absolutely awful if you do not build your list to minimise its impact as much as possible, resulting in restrictive list building.

I didn't say it was not bad or annoying, or that I think it should be in the book (it shouldn't - the lack of fearless on models with bad saves is enough) - I just am saying its not the sky is falling as was thought before.

Sure, it sucks, and YES, you are correct, you should build your list to avoid it as much as possible, and YES, that is restrictive.

But its not debilitating as many think, especially if they read WHEN you take the test as well..

Regardless, the book is still bland, has needless nerfs, terrible artifacts, lame psychic mechanics (why couldn't it have been "this is your defualt, or your could roll), bad units that were bad before and popular units just removed.

**BlaxicanX**

People weren't complaining because it "wasn't OP" (some people might have, but certainly not the majority), they were complaining because it's a lazy, half-assed job where a ton of options were nerfed or taken away with no replacements put in their place and with almost zero effort put into the fluff.

And imo that's all absolutely true.

I'm glad that these dataslates are giving Tyranids a much needed and deserved power boost. But the codex is still ass, and frankly it's lame that we needed this dataslates in the first place.

**xttz**

davethepak wrote:
PrinceRaven wrote:
In my experience Instinctive Behaviour is absolutely awful if you do not build your list to minimise its impact as much as possible, resulting in restrictive list building.

I didn't say it was not bad or annoying, or that I think it should be in the book (it shouldn't - the lack of fearless on models with bad saves is enough) - I just am saying its not the sky is falling as was thought before.

Sure, it sucks, and YES, you are correct, you should build your list to avoid it as much as possible, and YES, that is restrictive.

But its not debilitating as many think, especially if they read WHEN you take the test as well..

Regardless, the book is still bland, has needless nerfs, terrible artifacts, lame psychic mechanics (why couldn't it have been "this is your defualt, or your could roll), bad units that were bad before and popular units just removed.

Instinctive Behaviour is a fantastic example of poor game design. Instead of being rewarded for having something, you're actively punished for not having it. Imagine if Marines lost AtSKNF and Chapter Tactics when their captain or sergeant was killed, and then followed up by running away or shooting each other. There'd be a nerdy riot.

Then to make matters worse, we don't even get real tools to protect these critical units. No Synapse creatures can take a 2+ save. Only the easily ID'd T4 model gets an invuln. Venomthropes can't hide in units like their Warlock, Big Mek or Apothecary counterparts in other armies.

BlaxicanX wrote:
I'm glad that these dataslates are giving Tyranids a much needed and deserved power boost. But the codex is still ass, and frankly it's lame that we needed this dataslates in the first place.

The dataslates aren't a power boost so much as a small compensation for not having allies. Only a couple of them (Endless Swarm / Skyblight) open up new abilities (that really should have been in the codex from day 1). The rest is just a convoluted bunch of rules to ignore the usual FOC, often with the 'tax' of taking mediocre units like Warriors to do so. We've replaced the undercosted Tervigon crutch with the easily-spammed Skyblight crutch.

Formations did virtually nothing to address the real issues of the codex, namely:

Unreliable ranged anti-armour options

Survivability of key units (especially synapse and venomthropes)

Poor assault abilities on many melee-focused units (re-rolls / WS3 / single ScyTals on MCs)

Lack of fast transport / deployment options

A single psychic table containing a mish-mash of different roles

The overall effect of all this is that it really feels like Tyranids are an NPC race in 40k. They exist to be beaten by the 'proper' races, rather than played in their own right.

**Purifier**

xttz wrote:
The dataslates aren't a power boost so much as a small compensation for not having allies.

It boosted their power though, so I'd say calling it a power boost is fair.

And WOW the off topic whine in this thread. OP makes a valid point. He is disappointed by his fellow swarms for rolling over and having their bellies tickled by datasheets after ranting and raving about internal balance, and for some reason Sisters and BA (Sisters in particular) come stomping, saying "I HAVE IT WORSE!"

Yes, that's right, but it wasn't what the conversation was about. It's like you don't read the thread at all, you just want a soap box to yell your discontent from.

**Dunklezahn**

Did we ever really think that a good number of the posters complaining weren't coming at it from a power level point of view given the number of Competitive players? We have a whole sub-Forum dedicated to list building and another for tactics, people are trying to win. It's also the Competitive part of the community that tends to be most vocal about power levels so if for you 40k is competitive then the reason you assume people are complaining is going to be power related.

The Dataslates, while annoying they weren't in the core book, didn't just bring additional power, they brought an additional theme. Respawning units is a very cool and very Nid-like thing. Giving us more access to FMC's or Heavy Support options let us make more of an army that was. It appeased all walks of Nid life because who doesn't love more options. However if once again you have that competitive mindset you are gonna assume people are happy about the Skyblight type slates rather than the Tyrant Nodes or Warrior Nodes.

A lot of folks *were* complaining about power levels, some folks were genuinely mostly about the fluff, themes, models etc but I reckon most were complaining we stayed mid/low tier in terms of competition

**AllSeeingSkink**

Dunklezahn wrote:
A lot of folks *were* complaining about power levels, some folks were genuinely mostly about the fluff, themes, models etc but I reckon most were complaining we stayed mid/low tier in terms of competition

Actually I think it was most people complaining about internal balance. I know that's what I was mostly complaining about and seeing most other people complaining about. So many units I like (models and fluff) are crap

**SHUPPET**

BlaxicanX wrote:
People weren't complaining because it "wasn't OP" (some people might have, but certainly not the majority), they were complaining because it's a lazy, half-assed job where a ton of options were nerfed or taken away with no replacements put in their place and with almost zero effort put into the fluff.

And imo that's all absolutely true.

I agree with that sentiment too. Which is why I made the thread. It feels like the majority have shifted from unhappy, across to satisfied about the Tyranid codex with the release of some powerful formations, even though the flaws that there from day 1 are still just as evident as ever. The counter-response at the time was "you are just crying because you didn't get a tau/eldar book and thats what you expected" and our response was "no we wanted diversity". The integrity shown by those Tyranid players who claimed this but yet are saying stuff like "i should have just been patient im very happy with the way things panned out" are being quite hypocritical and merely proving those right, who claimed you were a bunch of powergamers whining about not getting a badass dex.

To me, badass dex is not what I want. I do not care about Skyblight. I like being the underdog. Some of us genuinely wanted to be able to use more than 30% of the units in our codex for something sensible at all.

**Dunklezahn**

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
[Actually I think it was most people complaining about internal balance. I know that's what I was mostly complaining about and seeing most other people complaining about. So many units I like (models and fluff) are crap

I said most, I make no claims to know what you yourself were thinking. The Dataslates do very little to address internal balance however so if that were the majority opinion that wouldn't support SHUPPET's assertion that people seem much happier with the dex post dataslate.

I haven't really studied the Nid community opinion much post codex (So much negativity) but if a more positive trend is being seen post dataslate then It would support the theory that internal balance was not the majority issue for them to have such a mollifying effect.

**rigeld2**

I think a lot of it is "Well, this is what we've got (even though it sucks internally) let's make it work." and post-slate it's "Oh. Well this got easier to make it work. Awesome!"

**PrinceRaven**

From what I've seen the dataslates are like turd polish. Tyranid players are happy that they they can polish their turd, but still unhappy about receiving a turd in the first place. There's also a lot of talk about how splitting the polish into 3 little vials and charging $18 each is a d*** move when the entire bottle of turd polish should've been supplied with the turd.

The dataslates have done a bit for internal balance though. Deathleaper, Genestealers and Lictors have become a bit less terrible, Hormagaunts & Termagaunts got a bit of a boost, and Gargoyles got a massive boost.

**AllSeeingSkink**

PrinceRaven wrote:
The dataslates have done a bit for internal balance though. Deathleaper, Genestealers and Lictors have become a bit less terrible, Hormagaunts & Termagaunts got a bit of a boost, and Gargoyles got a massive boost.

But it's still a kick in the balls you have to buy so many of them to make those units viable.

**PrinceRaven**

Yeah, but it's nice for the people who ran those sorts of lists in previous editions and already have the models. Besides, more options are always better, I'll take as much turd polish as I can.

**Dunklezahn**

PrinceRaven wrote:

The dataslates have done a bit for internal balance though. Deathleaper, Genestealers and Lictors have become a bit less terrible, Hormagaunts & Termagaunts got a bit of a boost, and Gargoyles got a massive boost.

That's not internal balance though, those are simply buffs. Lictors are still objectively worse than the rest of the elites section, except maybe Pyrovores. If anything it made internal balance worse as why take massed Gaunts when you can take super scoring Gargoyles with Skyblight?

Gargoyles were already better than Gaunts, make them Scoring+ with Skyblight and the internal balance is worse.

Stealers are still worse than Hormagaunts because of their high cost/low durability.

They made the Nid dex stronger, they made internal balance at best unchanged and potentially worse.

**PrinceRaven**

Lictors went from borderline unplayable to slightly viable, I'd say that's a positive in terms if internal balance.
You do bring up a good point about Gargoyles competing with other Troops though.