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Having this out over a few days with a friend: can you inflict Vector Strike hits on a unit after having flown off the board?

Vector Strike rule for reference:

BRB wrote:At the end of the Movement phase, nominate any one unengaged enemy unit the model has moved over that turn. This unit may even be an enemy flyer. The unit takes....

I will refrain from putting in my personal opinion in here for now. Please explain as thoroughly as possible, eh?

Yes. Source:

"At the end of the Movement phase, nominate any one unengaged enemy unit the model has moved over that turn. "

I don't have my rulebook, but going off that isolated quote, I would say the model still flew over the unit. I don't see why that would prevent him from inflicting the hits. It just happens he is in ongoing reserves by the end of his movement.

As with most rules we have a Condition, a Timing and an Effect.

The Condition is; "one unengaged enemy unit the model has moved over that turn".

The Timing is; "At the end of the Movement phase".

The Effect is; "Vector Strike" (paraphrased, of course)

Has the Condition been fulfilled? Yes, I believe it has.
So yes, a vector strike occurs.
How do we actually resolve said vector strike? I don't know.

Why would there be a problem with it resolving?

Follow the instructions in the Rule Book and the Frequently Asked Question answer and it works fine.

I assumed (without having the rule book handy) that there would be some LOS/wound allocation conflict.

Since I have no dog in this race I have no problem being corrected on this.




....

by that logic, basilisks can drop barrage shots from reserves....

no LOS needed for barrage after all, no requirement for the basilisk to be on the table if there isnt one for the flyer....

 easysauce wrote:
by that logic, basilisks can drop barrage shots from reserves....

no LOS needed for barrage after all, no requirement for the basilisk to be on the table if there isnt one for the flyer....

The wound pool empties though if there are not any models in Line of Sight.

 easysauce wrote:
by that logic, basilisks can drop barrage shots from reserves....

no LOS needed for barrage after all, no requirement for the basilisk to be on the table if there isnt one for the flyer....

Not quite the same as you measure if your within range as part of the check range step, which requires you to measure from the model. If your not on the table you cant measure from the unit to the target to check that.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
by that logic, basilisks can drop barrage shots from reserves....

no LOS needed for barrage after all, no requirement for the basilisk to be on the table if there isnt one for the flyer....

The wound pool empties though if there are not any models in Line of Sight.

Wouldn't that also apply to the wounds from the Vector Strike?

Steelmage99 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
by that logic, basilisks can drop barrage shots from reserves....

no LOS needed for barrage after all, no requirement for the basilisk to be on the table if there isnt one for the flyer....

The wound pool empties though if there are not any models in Line of Sight.

Wouldn't that also apply to the wounds from the Vector Strike?

out of sight only applies to shooting attacks. Which is why it is in the section for shooting, specifies shooting and firer in its rules. Neither of which are required or used by vector strike.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
by that logic, basilisks can drop barrage shots from reserves....

no LOS needed for barrage after all, no requirement for the basilisk to be on the table if there isnt one for the flyer....

The wound pool empties though if there are not any models in Line of Sight.

not true for barrage weapons, they ignore LOS

it would be true for vector strike however, as VS does not ignore LOS (although wounds are allocated randomly)

Steelmage99 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
by that logic, basilisks can drop barrage shots from reserves....

no LOS needed for barrage after all, no requirement for the basilisk to be on the table if there isnt one for the flyer....

The wound pool empties though if there are not any models in Line of Sight.

Wouldn't that also apply to the wounds from the Vector Strike?

No, because Vector Strike uses Random Allocation.

blaktoof wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
by that logic, basilisks can drop barrage shots from reserves....

no LOS needed for barrage after all, no requirement for the basilisk to be on the table if there isnt one for the flyer....

Not quite the same as you measure if your within range as part of the check range step, which requires you to measure from the model. If your not on the table you cant measure from the unit to the target to check that.

where in the rules does it say my model has to be on the table to measure range? my basilisk can be two besides the table, and still be in range.

the basilisk has the EXACT same permission to perform actions while not on the table, as a VS'ing flyer has (IE none, neither unit has permission to do ANYTHING from reserves/ongoing reserves except for arrive from reserves)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
by that logic, basilisks can drop barrage shots from reserves....

no LOS needed for barrage after all, no requirement for the basilisk to be on the table if there isnt one for the flyer....

The wound pool empties though if there are not any models in Line of Sight.

Wouldn't that also apply to the wounds from the Vector Strike?

No, because Vector Strike uses Random Allocation.

random allocation is NOT the same as permission to ignore LOS, or permission to perform actions while in ongoing reserves

blaktoof wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
by that logic, basilisks can drop barrage shots from reserves....

no LOS needed for barrage after all, no requirement for the basilisk to be on the table if there isnt one for the flyer....

The wound pool empties though if there are not any models in Line of Sight.

Wouldn't that also apply to the wounds from the Vector Strike?

out of sight only applies to shooting attacks. Which is why it is in the section for shooting, specifies shooting and firer in its rules. Neither of which are required or used by vector strike.

So how are you allocating wounds without the help of the rules for allocating wounds on page 15?

If you are using page 15 (The shootiing rules) to apply wounds why are you cherry picking the rules that you apply?

 Happyjew wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
by that logic, basilisks can drop barrage shots from reserves....

no LOS needed for barrage after all, no requirement for the basilisk to be on the table if there isnt one for the flyer....

The wound pool empties though if there are not any models in Line of Sight.

Wouldn't that also apply to the wounds from the Vector Strike?

No, because Vector Strike uses Random Allocation.

Which of course does not matter as Line of Sight still applies. unless you cherry pick rules from the shooting section to determine how to wound, Line of Sight applies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 easysauce wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
by that logic, basilisks can drop barrage shots from reserves....

no LOS needed for barrage after all, no requirement for the basilisk to be on the table if there isnt one for the flyer....

Not quite the same as you measure if your within range as part of the check range step, which requires you to measure from the model. If your not on the table you cant measure from the unit to the target to check that.

where in the rules does it say my model has to be on the table to measure range?

It is a function of the ruleset that models have to be on the table to measure range.

the flyer enters reserves, before the VS is resolved by RAW.


when in reserves, your only allowed action is to arrive from reserves (or do you contest you can cast powers while in reserves, shoot mortars/basilisks ect)

now quote a rule allowing models to perform ANY attack, shooting, melee, or VS specifically from reserves.

you wont find it, because it is not there... once the flyer leaves the table by RAW it "immediately" is in ongoing reserves.


quote pg and paragraph alowing melee, shooting, or other wise attacks from ongoing reserves or you cannot perform VS from reserves, noting that the standard VS rule does not state it may be done from reserves (so repeating ad finitum that you have passed over something, well it doesnt help you, you need permission to perform this action from reserves or you cannot do it)

as above, no one can quote the rule stating you have to have models on the table to measure range to or from (though it is OBS an assumed convention of the game, or a "function of the ruleset" which is also true for other units that are off the table, as a funtion of the ruleset, unless specified otherwise, models cannot attack, cast powers, or do anything while in reserves, other then arrive from them.)

as it is no attacks/psychic-powers/ect from reserves without a specific rule allowing it... again, if you disagree quote pg # that allows attacks from reserves, or concede your point.

p.12 of the BRB

under choose a target

Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with,
choose a target for them to shoot at. To do so, you must check
the range and line of sight from your unit to the enerny unit
you are targeting.

Vector strike is resolved at the end of a models movement.

A model has permission to make a vector strike at the end of its movement if it moved over that turn.

I can't find any requirement that it begin or end its turn on the board for the vector strike to happen.

As you have to move over the unit, obviously you had to have been on the table for at least one of the above to happen.

Comparing a model being on the table and moving over a unit and off the table, or a model moving from off the table to onto the table and over a unit, to a unit firing from off the table never being on it is odd. Not only that there is a specific rule stating that you must check range from the model firing to the model its firing at, as the model firing is not on the table you cannot do that unless you want to claim you can measure from off the table, but then how do you determine where off the table you are? Can you just move yourself anywhere you want off the table at any time because no rule says you can't then measure the range and fire from off the table?

Furthermore Vector Strike is neither an assault nor a shooting attack. So the rules for those have little to do with it. The closest attack type to a vector strike is a bombing run, and it as well has no rule against it having to have started on the table before it moved, or going into ongoing reserves.

If you mark the start distance of a model and the end distance, which could be marked as the point it left the board you obviously have the path the model moved over and can pick a unit under that line.

 easysauce wrote:

as it is no attacks/psychic-powers/ect from reserves without a specific rule allowing it... again, if you disagree quote pg # that allows attacks from reserves, or concede your point.

Except its not the unit, its you nominating any unit that it flew over.

 Iechine wrote:

 easysauce wrote:

as it is no attacks/psychic-powers/ect from reserves without a specific rule allowing it... again, if you disagree quote pg # that allows attacks from reserves, or concede your point.

Except its not the unit, its you nominating any unit that it flew over.

you are indeed using the VS special rule from a unit that is in reserves. yes, we all know the unit you are nominating is not in reserves, but the unit with the special rule that allows you to nominate something, most certainly IS in reserves. it was in reserves BEFORE the VS rule is activated.

now quote the pg# that lets you use every single special rule you want, from reserves.

Plenty of pyschic powers rules conditions can me "met" whilst in reserves as well, yet you wouldnt argue that those get to be used while in reserves.

so, your flyer is already in reserves, quote a single rule allowing it free use of all its special rules or attacks from reserves.

blaktoof wrote:
p.12 of the BRB

under choose a target

Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with,
choose a target for them to shoot at. To do so, you must check
the range and line of sight from your unit to the enerny unit
you are targeting.

when you check range, by the RAW in BRB it tells you to check range using LOS.

so checking range, with LOS ignoring weapons.... not actually covered by this as they ignore the LOS for targeting, hence why barrage weapons are one of MANY things that could affect things on the board, while not being on the board themselves.

not to mention, no where in that rule does it state they must be on the board. So as long as my LOS ignoring basilisk is physically within 240" of my target, by RAW, I am good (according to what follows from your argument assuming that flyers able to use special rules and or attacks from reserves)





again, quote one rule that allows special rules, or attacks, to be used from reserves.


if you cannot quote the rule, you cannot make attacks or use special rules on models that are in reserve.

when you check range, by the RAW in BRB it tells you to check range using LOS.

so checking range, with LOS ignoring weapons.... not actually covered

not to mention, no where in that rule does it state they must be on the board.

Unfortunately that is not what the rules say.

It is pretty plain RAW that you must check range -and- Line of sight.

Under choose a target it states range and line of sight.

When it then goes on to explain those sections, they are two separate sections which both must be followed. You check line of sight, then you check range. So yes you must check range with weapons the ignore LOS, as you only get to ignore the one rule- LOS.

What you state about being on the board is true, there is not a rule specifically saying you must be on the board to measure range for firing. I do not think that was the RAI to allow you to fire from off the board, and I am not sure how that would go in any tourney or even friendly game setting, but it would make you immune to assaults since models can't move off the board to assault you. But then there is nothing preventing someone from measuring off the board to your models in their movement tray over there all next to each other for their guns, I bet if a template landed on someones really nice army scenic diorama it would hit most of the models. Imagine if it were a D weapon.

You do realize I pointed out that the flyer had to be on the board at some point at least to perform the attack, as it is not in reserves when the attack would happen but would rather be in reserves either before or after the attack takes place. Again I would like to point out that there is no rule preventing you from following the simple rules for vector strikes, or bombs from their own contained rules, and neither is there an external rule preventing you from doing so.

Whereas in your counter point we are required to accept that you can measure from a model that is not only off the table, but will not be on the table at any point of the turn it is making its attack from wherever you may have set it or be holding it, and then further accept that the rules despite not saying you have to measure from a model on the table to a model on the table allow for us to measure from a model anywhere to anywhere. Perhaps I can hold some models I have in reserve above another model and have them shoot at some unit, so I can always be in range of any model I am shooting at from reserve, after all nothing says I can't keep my off table reserves in my hand 2" above your models, and they are not on the table...

Your arguement has no real comparison with an attack that originated from a line that was generated from a model that was actually on the table during its movement phase.

re read checking range, it tells you to measure from the gun to the closest model in LOS.

ignoring LOS, the rule becomes "measure from the gun to the closest model"


no where does it state it must be on the table.


OBS things have to be on the table, thats the whole point.

thats why a flyer must be ON THE TABLE to use its special rules, or make attacks, because it, just like the basilisk, or psychic powers, has no permission to do ANYTHING while in reserves. (other then arrive from reserves)


VS is 100% a special rule, and it 100% does not include a specific exemption for using it while in reserves.

yet you are arguing that this special rule, can be used by a model in reserves.

with no raw quoted, other then the special rule itself, which does not actually prove anything, as plenty of other attacks and special rules can have their conditions met while in reserve, but we all know cannot actually be used when in reserves.

VS is not used by model in reserves. At no time is the model sitting in reserves vector striking you without moving on the table.

re read checking range, it tells you to measure from the gun to the closest model in LOS.

ignoring LOS, the rule becomes "measure from the gun to the closest model"

CHECK RANGE
All weapons have a maximum range, which is the Furthest
distance they can shoot. At least one weapon must be in range
of the target unit. If no weapons are in range, then a different
target must be chosen. Here are examples of weapon ranges:

when checking range, simply measure from each firer to the
nearest visible model in the target unit. Any model that is found
to be out of range of all visible enemy models in the rarger unit
doesn't shoot - his shots would not be not accurate enough to
hit anything.

Barrage weapons

The advantage
of these indirect fire weapons is that they can be used to
engage targets ignoring the limitations of line of sight.

Barrage lets you ignore Line of Sight, it does not let you ignore range.

I do not see anywhere that you get to ignore being in range by being able to ignore line of sight.

This issue comes up occasionally. Some people attempt to argue that the RAW says you cannot allocate the wounds, but I've NEVER seen anyone actually try to make that one fly in a real game. If you think it's an issue, I would put it on your short list of 'questions I should ask the TO before attending an event.'

blaktoof wrote:

You do realize I pointed out that the flyer had to be on the board at some point at least to perform the attack, as it is not in reserves when the attack would happen but would rather be in reserves either before or after the attack takes place. Again I would like to point out that there is no rule preventing you from following the simple rules for vector strikes, or bombs from their own contained rules, and neither is there an external rule preventing you from doing so.

this is a permissive rule set, I do not need to find a rule barring an action, you need to have a rule permitting that action. that you are asking me to find restrictions... well again, no restriction on things shooting from off the board, permissive ruleset man... dont ask for restrictions, ask for permissions.

even in your own quote, you claim you dont understand when the VS happens (its at the END of the movement phase, well after the flyer has immediately left the board into reserves)

you have literally, just repeated that the conditions of VS were met (hey, you flew over someone right) and used it as proof that the special rule itself has explicit permission to be used from reserves.

which has already been addressed up the page as being incorrect, other wise I can cast psychic Communion from reserves, or put a 4++ on myself from reserves, or teleport people to me while in reserves and on and on with every single special rule or power that has conditions on it that are still met while in reserves.



again, OBS your special rule's conditions have been met, that is NOT the argument.

the argument is:

Can you use ANY special rule, psychic power, or make attacks while in reserve?



now, cite a PG and paragraph saying you CAN,

I do not have to cite anything saying you cannot, as it is a PERMISSIVE ruleset

The rules for vector strike say I can make an attack against a unit moved over. A unit under players A control moved over a unit under player Bs control during player As movement phase. It has fulfilled the requirement of moving over something to have the permitted attack.

I have specific permission.

Furthermore there is nothing anywhere denying or barring that permission.

blaktoof wrote:
VS is not used by model in reserves. At no time is the model sitting in reserves vector striking you without moving on the table.
.

are you even listening to what you just said?

yes, it is in reserves.

order of events are :

1. you move your flyer over a unit, and off the board.
2. it IMMEDIATELY enters ongoing reserves. it is now in reserves
3. at the end of the movement phase, you wish to use the special rule VS that your model in reserves has.

Did the model move over the target unit?

seriously blak tooth....


you are repeating yourself,

WE ALL KNOW THE CONDITIONS HAVE BEEN MET.

that is not the arguement.


again, OBS your special rule's conditions have been met, that is NOT the argument.

the argument is:

Can you use ANY special rule, psychic power, or make attacks while in reserve?

 easysauce wrote:
seriously blak tooth....


you are repeating yourself,

WE ALL KNOW THE CONDITIONS HAVE BEEN MET.

that is not the arguement.


again, OBS your special rule's conditions have been met, that is NOT the argument.

the argument is:

Can you use ANY special rule, psychic power, or make attacks while in reserve?

Some, yes. Pretty sure a Psyker in Reserves still generates Warp Charges. Pretty sure Deep Strike works while in Reserves, same as Outflank.

blaktoof wrote:
Did the model move over the target unit?

can you use special rules, or make attacks, or cast psychic powers from reserve.

yes or no, quote pg # if yes.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:


Some, yes. Pretty sure a Psyker in Reserves still generates Warp Charges.

again, quote pg # where it gives permission for any attack, special rule, psychic power, or any action other then arriving from reserves to be done while in reserves.

(only one I can find is the callidus, so there is 100% precedent for the rule having to specifically call out if you can make attacks from reserves)