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The attack is not made while in reserves, it is resolved after the model enters reserves at the end of its movement if it went into ongoing reserves, or it is resolved after the model has finished moving if it came on from reserves.

"Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any
abilities or special rules that rnust be used at the start of
the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve."

it is not a special ability used at the start of the turn, so there is no issue with that rule.

I see no rule denying an attack being made from a model before it enters reserves on the same turn it makes the attack, can you find one?

 Happyjew wrote:

Some, yes. Pretty sure a Psyker in Reserves still generates Warp Charges. Pretty sure Deep Strike works while in Reserves, same as Outflank.

at least you understand the argument....the reason why outflank and DS work from reserves, is that the reserves rules on pg 124 say they can be used from reserves.(the outflank and DS rules themselves also allow this)

again, those two specific special rules have been given permission to be used from reserves.

VS, has no such permission to be used from reserves though happy.

see? that simple, if the rule can be used from reserves, it says so in the rule itself, or on pg 124. if you cannot find a rule saying it specifically can be used from reserves, it cannot be used from reserves

blaktoof wrote:

I see no rule denying an attack being made from a model before it enters reserves on the same turn it makes the attack, can you find one?

again blak... you keep saying the flyer isnt in reserves when the VS goes off... which is wrong... the VS does not happen after the flyer moves. it happens at the END of the phase, well after the flyer has entered reserves.

if the text of VS had it going off BEFORE the flyer went into reserves, then sure, go ahead. But that is not the order of events, the flyer is in reserves well before the special rule is supposed to trigger.

you also keep asking for restrictions, in a permissive rule set... thats not how it works.

the question should be:

blaktoof wrote:

I see no rule allowing an attack(or special rule) being made/used from a model after it enters reserves, can you find one?

now find me a rule allowing your specific special rule or attack to be made from reserves please. Im not trying to be a jerk, but that literally is how it works, you HAVE to find a permission for the above, you cannot just ask for restrictions in a permissive ruleset, as that would mean they literally need a rule that says "you cannot flip the board and declare yourself the winner" to prevent that from happening



as has been noted before, the special rules (outflanks, deep strike) that can be used from reserves, are specifically called out as such in their own text, and in the reserve rules on pg 124.

if your special rule does not have specific reserves related text, or is not called out on pg 124, you cannot use it from reserves... period

There isn't a rule that stops you from using special rules from reserves. I mean everybody uses Fateweaver reroll from reserves.

 Tyran wrote:
There isn't a rule that stops you from using special rules from reserves. I mean everybody uses Fateweaver reroll from reserves.

again, there does not need to be a restriction on every single hair braind thing people think they can do, and unless there is a faq for fatey or an exemption in his rule text, he cant either


there is also no rule saying that the distance measured must be on the table, it just says between bases.

there is no rule saying I cant flip the table and call it a draw, ect ect


permissive rule set man, if you are in reserve you have permission to do EXACTLY one thing, albeit in a bunch of different ways, from reserves.

That is to arrive from reserves (in the prescribed manner IE table edge, DS< outflank<callidus special rule><tyranid burrow special rule>< ect)

quote the rule in reserves that lets you do other things while in reserve like use powers, special rules, make attacks ect pls.

Permissive ruleset: We have permission to Vector Strike any unit that fulfils the requirements, it doesn't matter if the model is in your deployment zone, your enemy's deployment zone, in reserves, tap dancing, etc.

Assumption of denial never beats permission granted by rules.

You acctually do not have permission to use vector strike if the model preforming it is in ongoing reserve.


You can vector strike the turn you enter the field from reserves, assuming you remain on the field.


Here i'll give you guys a bonus. There is a way to preform vector strike and still go into ongoing reserves, but it is by Flat Outing in the shooting phase. This means you are still on the board at the end of the movement phase in order to do the vector strike.

Contrary to popular belief there is no restriction on using rules while in reserve, just that most will have no effect.

"At the end of the Movement phase, nominate any one unengaged enemy unit the model has moved over that turn."

1. Did you move over the unit?
2. Is it unengaged?

If the answers to 1 and 2 are "Yes", you have permission to Vector Strike the unit.

For this permission to be denied there needs to be an actual rule denying it according to the operation of a permissive ruleset.

you do not have permission to use every single special rule from reserves. we are given explicit permission to do so for relevant rules, as can be seen for DS, outflank, and in NUMEROUS examples.

these are not "reminders" of the norm, these are specifically noted exceptions to the norm.

that has been established already raven, you are not even close, the "but I flew over it!" argument has been debunked, the flyer was in reserves BEFORE the special rule triggers, so the special rule doe not trigger.

you need permission to use special rules from reserves, thats why some special rules have explicit permission to be used from reserves.

to claim you can VS from reserves, is to claim you can do whatever you freaking want from reserves (shoot, orbital strike(unlimited range, cant argue its out of range), whatever) because hey, theres no rule saying you cant right?

just like there is no rule saying you cant flip the table.. and on it goes with you asking for a rule against everything in a permissive ruleset.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eihnlazer wrote:
You acctually do not have permission to use vector strike if the model preforming it is in ongoing reserve.


You can vector strike the turn you enter the field from reserves, assuming you remain on the field.


Here i'll give you guys a bonus. There is a way to preform vector strike and still go into ongoing reserves, but it is by Flat Outing in the shooting phase. This means you are still on the board at the end of the movement phase in order to do the vector strike.

exaclty, that would be allowed,

but people are literally making up permissions out of thin air...

pafe 124 is VERY clear on what you are allowed to do from reserves. Rules that are allowed in reserves clearly state it within the rules themselves. Claiming VS contains rules in it that allow its use from reserves is making up rules that dont exist, then claiming I have to make up negative-rules that would forbid an imaginary permission.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:
Contrary to popular belief there is no restriction on using rules while in reserve, just that most will have no effect.

there are certain rules with permission to be used in reserves, you have already conceded that.

there are certain rules without explicit permission to be used in reserves.

which one of those is VS.

answer that. because you keep dodging around the fact that certain rules get actual permission to be used from reserves, and then claiming ALL things have permission when they clearly do not.

you really are saying that I do in fact have permission to shoot my basilisk, from reserves, out of LOS, so long as the barrel is 280" or less from the target. even from my pack on the floor.

because hey, shooting rules dont specifically say they CANT be used from reserves right?

happy i expected more from you man... especially above where you ask why DS and outflank can be used from reserves, and its because they are called out specifically as working from reserves.

 easysauce wrote:
you do not have permission to use every single special rule from reserves. we are given explicit permission to do so for relevant rules, as can be seen for DS, outflank, and in NUMEROUS examples.

these are not "reminders" of the norm, these are specifically noted exceptions to the norm.

that has been established already raven, you are not even close, the "but I flew over it!" argument has been debunked, the flyer was in reserves BEFORE the special rule triggers, so the special rule doe not trigger.

you need permission to use special rules from reserves, thats why some special rules have explicit permission to be used from reserves.

So what you're saying is even if I have permission to do something I need further permission to do it in various circumstances? To take that to its logical conclusion, we can never Vector Strike ever, because we don't have specific permission to use it if you're in the enemy's deployment zone, or your own deployment zone, or on a part of the board that isn't in either deployment zone, or against painted models or unpainted models, etc.

The assumption that you cannot use Vector Strike while in reserves does not beat the rule stating you can use it when you fulfil it's conditions. Assumptions never trump rules.

to claim you can VS from reserves, is to claim you can do whatever you freaking want from reserves (shoot, orbital strike, whatever) because hey, theres no rule saying you cant right?

Actually there are, you can't shoot without being able to draw line of sight or measure range. Orbital strikes are treated as ranged weapons, so they have the same restriction.

just like there is no rule saying you cant flip the table.. and on it goes with you asking for a rule against everything in a permissive ruleset.

There also no rules give you permission to move the table at all, so with no rules granting permission or denial the assumption of denial wins. This is not the case for Vector Strike.

There are rules for not flipping the table it's in the don't be a dick part of the rules where they say it's about having fun.

The second thing is that the only restriction on USRs etc is that the start of turn ones only kick in if your start of turn was on the board. That is a specific restriction on the blanket ability to use USRs etc when the conditions are met.

So the USR vector strike has given permission, there is no restriction as it is not a start of turn effect. Ergo close the thread, good night everyone, good hustle, see you on the next thread.

Stop being so sensible liturgies, you'll only confuse them.

 easysauce wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Did the model move over the target unit?

can you use special rules, or make attacks, or cast psychic powers from reserve.

yes or no, quote pg # if yes.

Yes

Your units start the game in reserves.
permissions:
Move: in your turn, you can move any of your units - all of them if you wish. pg 10
shooting: who can shoot: "other game rules or special rules can sometimes affect a unit's ability to shoot - this is explained thoroughly when it occurs pg 12
Assault: choose a unit in your army that is declaring a charge and nominate the enemy unit it is attempting to charge p20

mission special rules pg 124 some eternal war missions use unique special rules. these confer extra abilities, restrictions ...
Reserves,
No restrictions or modifications for movement so fliers should crash at the end of turn one for not moving 18+"
no restrictions listed about shooting, nothing even hinted at, let alone explained thoroughly
Assaults, no restrictions, but odds are you'll never be close enough to declare one.

Reserves is a whole mess of rules that people have house ruled without even understanding what they are house ruling thinking it to be RAW.

Never, ever play this way but these are the RAW.

 easysauce wrote:
you do not have permission to use every single special rule from reserves. we are given explicit permission to do so for relevant rules, as can be seen for DS, outflank, and in NUMEROUS examples.

these are not "reminders" of the norm, these are specifically noted exceptions to the norm.

You have yet to show where a 'norm' is defined for special rules is in regards to this. The idea is entirely unsupported as far as I can tell that the 'norm' for SRs is 'only while on the board'.

Also those are not a specifically noted exception. Those would look more like 'unlike other Special Rules this one works in reserve'. You can have exceptions and specifics but a specific exception must be noted as an exception specifically. These are just flatly stated as operating in reserve with no such 'specifically noted exceptions'.

As has been mentioned one or twice, permission is given to VS if the models passes over an enemy unit and that unit is not engaged. I do not see any further limitations regarding the models final position or lack thereof nor any restriction on using SRs from reserves. Please cite where the rules define this 'norm' you keep referring to.

Edit "Norm!"

Doesn't the controlling player dictate what order things go down at, simultaneously?

Just like the which came first, the vector strike or the intercept issue....

If I fly over your model, I declare a Vector Strike, and then I fly away.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Doesn't the controlling player dictate what order things go down at, simultaneously?

Just like the which came first, the vector strike or the intercept issue....

If I fly over your model, I declare a Vector Strike, and then I fly away.

Not quite, you declare your vector strike at the end of the movement phase so it's:

is everyone done moving? flier, you complete your movement and are now off the table?

ok, vector strike.

Eihnlazer wrote:



Here i'll give you guys a bonus. There is a way to preform vector strike and still go into ongoing reserves, but it is by Flat Outing in the shooting phase. This means you are still on the board at the end of the movement phase in order to do the vector strike.

I think this seems like the best answer.

Actually, you absolutely cannot be doing any Vector Striking after moving Flat Out, because that movement happens in the Shooting Phase, and VSing happens at the end of the Movement Phase.

This thread is a mess! Hah.

I'll throw something else out there. I'm interested in knowing why I haven't seen similar "you can't do that!" statements regarding Imotekh the Stormlord and his storms? Do they take effect if he is off the board? Why or why not?

At this point, as well, I will say that I am very solidly of the "You can VS after moving off the board" camp. Also, my friend now appears to agree with me after a bit of this thread, and some reading of the Rulebook's FAQ (always a healthy activity!). I have nothing new to add to that argument specifically, though.

So, expanding on this, what about Imotekh? Why does he work if VS does not? Care to give a shot at that, detractors?

ork i think you completely misunderstood me.

You dont vector strike after you flat out.


You move, vector strike, then flat out off the board.

Oops. I've seen people do that before, my bad. I was not doing my best job of reading the whole sentence on that one, for sure!

So, that works just fine for the Heldrake, well and good. It does not do much for FMC's, though?

FMCs can run 2d6 inches.

orkdom wrote:
Oops. I've seen people do that before, my bad. I was not doing my best job of reading the whole sentence on that one, for sure!

So, that works just fine for the Heldrake, well and good. It does not do much for FMC's, though?

And Flyers do not have permission to Flat Out off the board. They can only leave airspace with their "zoom move".

coredump wrote:

orkdom wrote:
Oops. I've seen people do that before, my bad. I was not doing my best job of reading the whole sentence on that one, for sure!

So, that works just fine for the Heldrake, well and good. It does not do much for FMC's, though?

And Flyers do not have permission to Flat Out off the board. They can only leave airspace with their "zoom move".

So they are in Hover mode during the shooting phase when they flat out even if they used Zoom mode for movement?

Never said that, please refrain from putting words in my mouth.

p. 80 defines "a special kind of move called a Zoom", and this takes place during the movement phase.

p. 81 talks about a flyer that "goes Flat Out"

p.81 also says that flyer "making a zoom move" can leave the board. It does not say a "zooming" flyer, it is very specific by saying "a zoom move"

Under FMCs, however, they use the term "swooping" MC

When you are "zooming" you make a "zoom move" during the movement phase. When you use that "Zoom move" you may leave the board.
There is not rule allowing a flyer to leave the board 'while zooming', nor any rule that allows it when moving Flat Out.

orkdom wrote:
Actually, you absolutely cannot be doing any Vector Striking after moving Flat Out, because that movement happens in the Shooting Phase, and VSing happens at the end of the Movement Phase.

This thread is a mess! Hah.

I'll throw something else out there. I'm interested in knowing why I haven't seen similar "you can't do that!" statements regarding Imotekh the Stormlord and his storms? Do they take effect if he is off the board? Why or why not?

At this point, as well, I will say that I am very solidly of the "You can VS after moving off the board" camp. Also, my friend now appears to agree with me after a bit of this thread, and some reading of the Rulebook's FAQ (always a healthy activity!). I have nothing new to add to that argument specifically, though.

So, expanding on this, what about Imotekh? Why does he work if VS does not? Care to give a shot at that, detractors?

Last time I saw imotekh come up, everyone seemed to agree that on the first turn he does get his lord of the storm ability. second turn onwards was debated. You'll find people in the yes to VS also claiming no to the storm after the first turn. Not just the detractors from VS, who might also just say no to the storm if Imotekh is in reserves.

His ability is different from Vector strike in many ways though. Most notable, taking Imotekh modifies the night fighting rules to include the storm and keep nightfighting rules in effect. As such it does work from reserves. Just like taking a warlord to make an elite a troop, those elite's are troops for the entire game if the HQ is alive, dead, or in reserves. Just like Ghazgkull can use his WAAAAgh, alive, dead, or in reserves. Those who say no to the second turn onwards while in reserves will reference the FAQ about cryptechs allowing the reroll and what they think that implies.

There is no clear answer to the intent of vector strike, RAW? yes, but it really comes down to how your group has house rulled reserves and VS should be added to your house rules.

look at it this way,

you arrive and move over a unit, and are shot down by interceptor fire.

do you now also attempt a vector strike after being shot down?

situation #2

you move over a unit with one flyer, but cannot place the flyer or move the full distance, so crash.

do you perform the VS in that situation?

yes or no.

keeping in mind, in BOTH those examples, you fulfill the requirements set in VS, as in being in reserves (which counts as dead if you dont exit reserves)

In both examples, and the case of using VS from reserves, the model trying to use a special rule, is not in play (it has either been removed as a casualty, or removed from the board counting as a casualty if the game ends before it is put back into play)

Doesn't Interceptor and VS happen at the same time? As such the current player would get to choose order and would logically elect VS before Interceptor.

I would say "yes" to the first, and "no" to the second.

Remember that because you insisted on a yes/no answer you don't get to ask me to clarify why.
You got your answer. Be happy with it.

 Happyjew wrote:
Doesn't Interceptor and VS happen at the same time? As such the current player would get to choose order and would logically elect VS before Interceptor.

he could choose wrongly,

the point is the scenario exists.

its also important to note, that while in reserves, the unit counts as being "removed as a casualty" if it doesnt come back before the game ends.... so doing stuff from a position of "not being in play" is the whole point


so its last turn, you fly over a unit, and off the table. you are now in reserves, count as dead since you cant come back. your model is not on the table, but is some how attacking models that are.

someone above mentioned that shooting with basilisks was "being a dick, violating the most important rule", and rightly so, its not fair for something OFF the table to attack things on it.

But as you are all arguing that there is no restriction on doing anything from reserves (ie models not in play, get to play), I can technically by RAW measure from my basilisk in my army crate, to your unit on the table and be within the 280 range and I dont need LOS.

Its the same concept with vector striking with a model that is not in play.

 easysauce wrote:

so doing stuff from a position of "not being in play" is the whole point

So how do the other rules mentioned work, from your perspective? Warlord Traits such as Conqueror of Cities? Imotekh's storms? A Warboss used to make Nobs a scoring unit? Ghazghkull's Waaagh? In their most essential aspect, all of these rules would fall under the category of "stuff" in the same sense as the rule Vector Strike does, so can any of these units "do" said "stuff" like this "from a position of 'not being in play'"?

I want to know your personal interpretation of each of these, if you could give it. You are so certain about Vector Strikes, do you have the same line for each of the others? OR, where you don't have the same conclusion, how do you differentiate between each of these in your interpretation in order to make it all fit together?

In the specific example of Imotekh, I want to know if you consider his Storms to be an "attack" made by him in the same sense you apparently consider Vector Strike to be an "attack" made by a Heldrak/FMC, and how that influences your opinion of each.