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there is an FAQ for things like that

"Q: Some units have rules that mean their selection permits
other units from that detachment to be selected as if they
belonged to different parts of their Codex army list (Heavy
Support choices chosen as Troops for e xample). If such a
permissive unit is killed, do these rules immediately cease to
apply (e.g. units chosen as Troops that were not Troops
originally cease to count as such and so cannot be Scoring
units, or worse b e com e ille dgal units due to e xce ss choice s from
one or more sections of the army list)? (p109)
A: No."

Easy, your comparing a models getting removed as casualties to them moving into ongoing reserves. In the first case the model is no longer in the game and in the second they are still in it, just not on the board.

If you want to make a case stating 'if models can use special rules while in ongoing reserves then they can use special rules from beyond the grave', it will not go well for you. Aside from the models not being present on the battlefield there is zero correlation between the two states.

Abandon is correct, the only time models of the board are treated as being casualties is when the game ends.

Not in play and not on the battlefield are not the same thing at all. Not in play defines some thing that is not a part of the game while 'not on the battlefield' simply means it is not on the board at the time.

Query. If being off the table means you cannot use special rules, does that mean embarked models cannot use special rules?

 Happyjew wrote:
Query. If being off the table means you cannot use special rules, does that mean embarked models cannot use special rules?

I think he's saying units that are not on the battlefield don't exist in the game. I guess that would include units embarked on transports being the same as casualties.

That to me is a very problematic conflation for people who don't like Vector Striking after leaving the board. When is the unit considered dead? if it is off the board at the end of the game[. Not before that point. Even if you do it on the last turn, the game, of course, isn't over before the end of the Movement Phase, so that's still not a component of this discussion [to me].

@easysauce: Okay, great, you've actually addressed one of the other situations presented. You did so without having to even bring up your own argument. As for the rest...?

coredump wrote:
Never said that, please refrain from putting words in my mouth.

p. 80 defines "a special kind of move called a Zoom", and this takes place during the movement phase.

p. 81 talks about a flyer that "goes Flat Out"

p.81 also says that flyer "making a zoom move" can leave the board. It does not say a "zooming" flyer, it is very specific by saying "a zoom move"

Under FMCs, however, they use the term "swooping" MC

When you are "zooming" you make a "zoom move" during the movement phase. When you use that "Zoom move" you may leave the board.
There is not rule allowing a flyer to leave the board 'while zooming', nor any rule that allows it when moving Flat Out.

"A Zooming Flyer that goes Flat Out must move forwards in a straight line between 12" and 24"." (81)

Flat out is still a zoom move as the flyer is still zooming.

 DeathReaper wrote:

coredump wrote:
Never said that, please refrain from putting words in my mouth.

p. 80 defines "a special kind of move called a Zoom", and this takes place during the movement phase.

p. 81 talks about a flyer that "goes Flat Out"

p.81 also says that flyer "making a zoom move" can leave the board. It does not say a "zooming" flyer, it is very specific by saying "a zoom move"

Under FMCs, however, they use the term "swooping" MC

When you are "zooming" you make a "zoom move" during the movement phase. When you use that "Zoom move" you may leave the board.
There is not rule allowing a flyer to leave the board 'while zooming', nor any rule that allows it when moving Flat Out.

"A Zooming Flyer that goes Flat Out must move forwards in a straight line between 12" and 24"." (81)

Flat out is still a zoom move as the flyer is still zooming.

That assertion is not in the rules, you made it up.

No where in the rules does it say a Flat Out move is also a Zoom move. They are very specific and only talk about a "Zoom Move" twice, once when discussing the move in the movement phase, and once when talking about restrictions for moving off the board.

The restriction for leaving the board does *not* say anything about 'still zooming', nor a 'zooming flyer' etc. It very specifically talks about a "Zoom Move"

They chose to use the term "Swooping" MC to allow FMCs to leave the table, which is why they *can* leave using a Run move.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 easysauce wrote:
look at it this way,

you arrive and move over a unit, and are shot down by interceptor fire.

do you now also attempt a vector strike after being shot down?

situation #2

you move over a unit with one flyer, but cannot place the flyer or move the full distance, so crash.

do you perform the VS in that situation?

yes or no

Yes, and Yes.

You said it yourself, you fulfilled the requirements for a VS. The FMC was on the board, alive, when it flew over the target models. That is what is required.

Note the difference with DE bladvanes... which require you to have LoS to the target.

Page 80 disagrees with you.

"Flyers can usually only make a special kind of move called Zoom." (80)

Flyers can only zoom unless they are n hover mode...

"A Zooming Flyer that goes Flat Out..."(81) flat out whilst zooming is still zooming.

Your 'evidence' is not supporting your conclusion.

A zooming flyer can make a Zoom Move in the movement phase
A zooming flyer can make a Flat Out move in the shooting phase.

A flyer can only leave the board while making a Zoom Move. A zooming flyer has no permission to leave the battlefield, unless it does so using a Zoom Move.

core you are Flat Out wrong on this.

A flat out move from a zooming flyer is still a zoom move and can take you off the board. Ive acctually never seen anyone till you who didnt think it could.

All of the flyers movement is Zoom, unless it is a Hover-type.

Would we say that Flyers going Flat out can now be assaulted too? The ruling says Zooming flyers cannot be assaulted.

coredump wrote:
Never said that, please refrain from putting words in my mouth.

p. 80 defines "a special kind of move called a Zoom", and this takes place during the movement phase.

p. 81 talks about a flyer that "goes Flat Out"

p.81 also says that flyer "making a zoom move" can leave the board. It does not say a "zooming" flyer, it is very specific by saying "a zoom move"

Under FMCs, however, they use the term "swooping" MC

When you are "zooming" you make a "zoom move" during the movement phase. When you use that "Zoom move" you may leave the board.
There is not rule allowing a flyer to leave the board 'while zooming', nor any rule that allows it when moving Flat Out.

I see no rule that the flyer has to zoom to leave the board on page 81. The page does make a reference to a flyer zooming, but doesn't state that it has to zoom. It does, however, state that a Flyer must return to the board by zooming.

With that in mind, I see no reason to quibble over what constitutes a "zoom move" when it won't have any impact on the game.

Eihnlazer wrote:
core you are Flat Out wrong on this.

A flat out move from a zooming flyer is still a zoom move and can take you off the board. Ive acctually never seen anyone till you who didnt think it could.

Thats a great assertion. Now can you show me a rule that says a Flat Out move is a Zoom move?

As far as I can find, the only time they describe a Zoom Move, it happens in the Movement phase. Did you find a rule I could not? Did you find a rule where they say a Flat Out move is also a zoom move?

Notice, they did *not* say a 'zooming flyer' can leave the board... yet they *did* say that a 'swooping MC' can leave the board.
For flyers they used the specific term Zoom Move, and they specifically talk about that being the move in the Movement phase. Where does it say that the movement in the shooting phase is a Zoom Move?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
All of the flyers movement is Zoom, unless it is a Hover-type.

Would we say that Flyers going Flat out can now be assaulted too? The ruling says Zooming flyers cannot be assaulted.

Can you provide a rule that says that all the moves are a zoom moves?

A zooming flyer that does a Flat Out Move, is still a zooming flyer, thus can't be assaulted. A zooming flyer performs a zoom move in the movement phase and a flat out move in the shooting phase. It says so right in the flyer rules....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sonicaucie wrote:


I see no rule that the flyer has to zoom to leave the board on page 81. The page does make a reference to a flyer zooming, but doesn't state that it has to zoom. It does, however, state that a Flyer must return to the board by zooming.

With that in mind, I see no reason to quibble over what constitutes a "zoom move" when it won't have any impact on the game.

Not sure how you missed the very first sentence....

"It's quite likely that a Flyer making a Zoom move will leave the board, either deliberately or by accident." (emphasis mine)

coredump wrote:

sonicaucie wrote:


I see no rule that the flyer has to zoom to leave the board on page 81. The page does make a reference to a flyer zooming, but doesn't state that it has to zoom. It does, however, state that a Flyer must return to the board by zooming.

With that in mind, I see no reason to quibble over what constitutes a "zoom move" when it won't have any impact on the game.

Not sure how you missed the very first sentence....

"It's quite likely that a Flyer making a Zoom move will leave the board, either deliberately or by accident." (emphasis mine)

That was the reference to zooming flyers I was talking about. It doesn't state anywhere that a flyer must zoom to leave the board.

Flyers can usually only make a special kind of move called Zoom. Some can also Hover - see page 81. Zooming allows the Flyer to move at fantastic speeds.... If a Flyer Zooms, it has a combat speed... However, as a certain amount of forward thrust is required for the vehicle to stay in the air, a Zooming Flyer can never voluntarily move less than ... If a Zooming Flyer is forced to move less than ...." (80, Emphasis mine) I removed some rules as they were not involved in this discussion.

This equates zoom move with Zooming.

"A Zooming Flyer that goes Flat Out must move forwards" (81)

Flat out is still a zooming flyer and as such can leave the combat airspace into ongoing reserves.