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Made in gb
Norn Queen






Since I don't want to have this buried in the Hundred Heresies thread, I'll stick it here in it's own thread in case anyone gives a damn.
Google Doc Link: Link
Also a proposal to change 40k to a D10 based system.

I'm not all that up to date with the current codex's special rules and whatnot, so I would appreciate suggestions as to things that might break with this turn structure.
For those unable to access the Google Doc for some reason:
Spoiler:
Important Note: This document will only document instances were rules or dice rolls have changed. Basically, unless I say that something has changed, assume it has not. This not only will cut down on redundant lines saying that “Rule XYZ remains unchanged” but will also skirt any possibility of being accused of trying to copy-paste rules wholesale.


The Turn
Movement Phase:
The Movement Phase is now split into three distinct sub-phases, the “Move Fleeing Units sub-phase”, the “Movement Pass Point Calculation sub-phase” and the “Move Units sub-phase”

Move Fleeing Units sub-phase:
If no player has any units that are falling back, then this sub-phase is skipped entirely.
If one player has units that are falling back, that player resolves each individual unit's Regrouping rolls and subsequent Fall Backs or Consolidations as needed until all fleeing units have been dealt with.
If both players have units that are falling back, select one player at random by dicing off and then alternate resolving the fleeing units as necessary until one player has no more fleeing units, at which point the remaining player will resolve them one by one as normal.

The reasons for resolving Fall Back moves before other movement is threefold. First is to ensure players don't forget (or “forget” as the case may be. You know who you are!) to move a unit that is falling back.
Secondly, it prevents the currently possible tactic of moving your own units to force the fleeing unit to have to go around the now in the way friendly unit, possibly buying an extra attempt to regroup.
Thirdly, with the alternating movement system now used, it is possible for an enemy unit to move into a position where the falling back unit will be destroyed before it gets an attempt to regroup or flee. While this will still be possible, it would be unfair to do so before the enemy gets a chance to regroup or get the hell out of dodge first.

Movement Pass Point Calculation sub-phase:
At the start of each Movement Pass Point Calculation sub-phase, each player counts the number units they own, though certain units are ignored for this calculation. Units that are ignored include:
Units that are falling back.
Units who have regrouped this turn (and do not have the ATSKNF special rule).
Units who are pinned or have gone to ground or are otherwise rendered unable to move.
Vehicles who are immobile for any reason, whether through damage or inherently immobile.

Units who are inside a transport, dedicated or otherwise, are counted in addition to the transport.

The player with the lower number of applicable units gets a number of “Movement Pass Points” equal to the difference in unit numbers. These Pass Points are used in the Move Units sub-phase in order to choose to not select a unit to move but also not surrender the chance to move later in the movement phase. Basically it is a "free turn" to allow reactionary tactics against an enemy with greater numbers. A player with no Pass Points remaining cannot do this and must select a unit although of course they can elect to not move it that turn.
Example: At the start of the turn, Alice has three units and one transport with a unit inside. Bob has a total of 10 units, one of which is an immobile vehicle and one of which is a unit that is falling back. Alice thus has 3 Pass Points (8 minus 5) that she may use during this turns Move Units sub-phase.

Note that Pass Points are not rolled over between phases or turns and are freshly calculated each turn as needed.

Move Units sub-phase:
Determine a player at random by dicing off. That player decides if they wish to move first or second this turn.

Next, the player who is moving first selects a unit they control that is capable of moving and is not falling back to move or may utilize a Pass Point. If that player has no Pass Points or does not wish to use one, they must still select a unit, although they may elect to not move it. However, electing to not move a unit means it will not be able to be selected later on in the turn to move. It has, in effect, "moved zero".

Once this unit has been moved, the opposing player selects a unit they control that is capable of moving and is not falling back to move or may utilize a Pass Point. If that player has no Pass Points or does not wish to use one, they must still select a unit, although they may elect to not move it. However, electing to not move a unit means it will not be able to be selected later on in the turn to move. It has, in effect, "moved zero".

This continues with players alternating back and forth until all units have been moved or chosen to not move. If a player finishes moving all their units before the opponent due to not using all of their Pass Points or for any other reason, then the remaining player will simply move (or elect to not move) the rest of their units in any order until they have moved all their units or elect to not move any more units for the turn.

Players may at any time before moving a unit declare that they will elect to move no more units for the turn. If they do, then the remaining player will simply move (or elect to not move) the rest of their units in any order until they have moved all their units or elect to not move any more units for the turn. A player who declares that they will elect to move no more units for the turn cannot then choose to move their remaining units after their enemy has moved, so be absolutely sure when deciding to declare this!

Example of a movement phase:
Alice has 3 units of Space Marine Scouts and a unit of Tactical Marines mounted inside it's Rhino.
Bob has 3 units, 2 mobs of Boyz and 1 immobile Battlewagon.
Thus, Alice has a unit count of 4 and Bob has a unit count of 2
Therefore, Alice has 2 Pass Points she may utilise this Movement Phase.

Alice and Bob dice off and Alice wins the roll. She decides to move first. She selects one of her Scout Marine squads to move, then moves it however she likes, then passes the turn to Bob. Bob selects one of his Boyz mobs and moves it however he likes.

The turn now passes to Alice. She selects her second squad of scouts, but chooses to not move it this turn. Bob then elects to use a Pass Point and doesn't need to select a unit to move.

Alice now selects her Tactical Marine's Rhino as the unit to be moved and moves it into position. She wants to disembark the unit inside but must wait until her next opportunity to select a unit as the Rhino and Tactical Squad are separate units. Bob decides not to use his remaining Pass Point and now selects his second squad of Boyz to move and moves them.

The turn now passes to Alice again and she disembarks her Tactical Squad from her Rhino as per the rules for disembarking etc. Bob has no more units left capable of moving this turn, so instead of passing over to him unnecessarily, Alice moves onto one of her remaining units, in this case her third and final scout squad and moves it.

Neither Bob nor Alice now have any other units left to move, so the game proceeds to the Shooting Phase.


Shooting Phase:
The Shooting Phase is structured similarly to the Movement Phase detailed above.
The Shooting Phase is now split into three distinct sub-phases, the “Shooting Pass Point Calculation sub-phase”, the “Declare Shooting sub-phase” and the “Run sub-phase”.

Shooting Pass Point Calculation sub-phase:
At the start of each Shooting Pass Point Calculation sub-phase, each player counts the number units they own, though certain units are ignored for this calculation. Units that are ignored include:
Units where no members have any ranged weapons or other abilities that fire as ranged weapons, including but not limited to psychic powers, special wargear and special rules.
Units where no members have the ability to fire any of their weapons that turn. This includes but is not limited to units that are pinned and units that moved and only have Heavy Weapons that are unable to make Snap Shots.
Units where no members have weapons that are in range of an enemy unit. If it is unclear if they are in range of an enemy unit or not, simply measure to find out. Note that only range is taken into consideration, a unit that is in range of an enemy that they could not possibly damage is still counted at this stage.
Units who are embarked upon a transport vehicle where no members are capable of firing from it due to lack of fire points or any other reason.
Vehicles that have no weapons remaining, whether this is the result of expending all their limited ammunition, through damage results or simply not having any weapons to begin with.

Units who are inside a transport that they can fire from, dedicated or otherwise, are counted in addition to the transport. Don't worry about not being able to count units without ranged weapons that you wish to Run or move Flat out with, this is done in the Run sub-phase. Also keep in mind that, as detailed later, units who could have fired but elect not to can still choose to Run or move Flat out in the Run sub-phase.

The player with the lower number of applicable units gets a number of “Shooting Pass Points” equal to the difference in unit numbers. These Pass Points are used in the Declare Shooting sub-phase in order to choose to not select a unit to shoot but also not surrender the chance to shoot later in the movement phase. Basically it is a "free turn" to allow reactionary tactics against an enemy with greater numbers. A player with no Pass Points remaining cannot do this and must select a unit, although of course they can elect to not shoot with it that turn.
Example: At the start of the turn, Alice has three units and one transport (with no fire points) with a unit inside. Bob has 8 units, one of which is a vehicle with no weapons remaining and one unit that has no ranged weapons. Alice thus has 2 Pass Points (6 minus 4) that she may use during this turns Declare Shooting sub-phase.

Note that Pass Points are not rolled over between phases or turns and are freshly calculated each turn as needed. In particular the Movement Pass Points generated in the Movement Phase are completely separate to the Shooting Pass Points generated in the Shooting phase and in no way roll over or affect the number of Shooting Pass Points generated by a player in any way.

Declare Shooting sub-phase:
Determine a player at random by dicing off. That player decides if they wish to shoot first or second this turn.

Next, the player who is shooting first selects a unit they control to shoot with or may utilize a Pass Point. If that player has no Pass Points or does not wish to use one, they must still select a unit, although they may elect to not shoot with it. However, electing to not shoot with a unit means it will not be able to be selected later on in the turn to shoot. It has given up their chance to shoot this turn. Keep in mind that units selected this way that do not shoot can still elect to run in the Run Sub-Phase, so this is a good method to try and get the enemy to commit more of their shooting before unleashing yours by selecting units you didn't want to shoot anyway!

Once this unit has fired its weapons and resolved it's shooting and any aftermath of it's shooting completely, the opposing player selects a unit they control to shoot with or may utilize a Pass Point. If that player has no Pass Points or does not wish to use one, they must still select a unit, although they may elect to not shoot with it. However, electing to not shoot with a unit means it will not be able to be selected later on in the turn to shoot. It has given up their chance to shoot this turn. Keep in mind that units selected this way that do not shoot can still elect to run in the Run Sub-Phase.

This continues with players alternating back and forth until all units have shot their weapons or chosen to not shoot. If a player finishes shooting with all their units before the opponent due to not using all of their Pass Points, having units destroyed by enemy fire or for any other reason, then the remaining player will simply shoot with (or elect to not shoot with) the rest of their units in any order until they have shot with all their units or elect to not shoot with any more units for the turn.

Players may at any time before shooting with a unit declare that they will elect to shoot with no more units for the turn. If they do, then the remaining player will simply shoot with (or elect to not shoot with) the rest of their units in any order until they have moved all their units or elect to not move any more units for the turn. A player who declares that they will elect to shoot with no more units for the turn cannot then choose to shoot with their remaining units after their enemy has shot their weapons, so be absolutely sure when deciding to declare this!

Run sub-phase:
After all shooting and any consequences that said shooting may cause has been resolved, the Run sub-phase begins. Pass Points do not roll over and are not utilised in the Run sub-phase.

Determine a player at random by dicing off. That player decides if they wish select a unit first or second this turn.

Next, the player who is running with a unit first selects a unit they control they wish to make a run movement or flat out movement with. Please note that unlike in the Movement or Shooting phases, a selected unit may not opt to not run or move flat out, although they can of course choose to not move anyway (such as if you roll a poor result and decide to not move in order to not trigger dangerous terrain tests for example) but the unit will still count as having run or moved flat out.

Once this unit has been moved, the opposing player selects a unit they control they wish to make a run movement or flat out movement with. Please note that unlike in the Movement or Shooting phases, a selected unit may not opt to not run or move flat out, although they can of course choose to not move anyway (such as if you roll a poor result and decide to not move in order to not trigger dangerous terrain tests for example) but the unit will still count as having run or moved flat out.

This continues with players alternating back and forth until all units able to run or move flat out have been moved or chosen to not move. If a player finishes moving all their units before the opponent for any reason, then the remaining player will simply run with the rest of their units in any order until they have run with all their units or elect to not run with any more units for the turn.

Players may at any time before moving a unit declare that they will elect to run or move flat out with no more units for the turn. If they do, then the remaining player will simply run or move flat out the rest of their applicable units in any order until they have run or moved flat with all their applicable units or elect to not move any more units for the turn. A player who declares that they will elect to run or move flat out no more units for the turn cannot then choose to run or move flat out their remaining units after their enemy has moved, so be absolutely sure when deciding to declare this!

Assault Phase:
The Shooting Phase is structured similarly to the Movement and Shooting Phases detailed above. The sub-phases are now the “Select Charging Units sub-phase” and the “Resolve Fights sub-phase.”

Select Charging Units sub-phase:
Unlike the Movement and Shooting phase, the Select Charging Units sub-phase does not use Pass Points. Determine a player at random by dicing off. That player decides if they wish to attempt a charge first or second this turn.

Next, the player who is declaring a charge first selects a unit they control to attempt a charge and declares it.

Weapons and Weapon Modes that fire multiple rounds during an Overwatch suffer a -1 shot penalty. Weapons that only fire a single shot to begin with may still fire this shot. e.g. Rapid Fire weapons only fire one shot each, a Heavy 3 weapon will fire only two shots and a Pistol will still fire a single shot.

Once the charge has been fully resolved, the opposing player now selects a unit they control to attempt a charge and declares it in the same way.

Players alternate selecting units they wish to attempt a charge in this manner. If a player has no more units left capable of launching a charge they wish to attempt a charge, then the remaining player selects units one by one until they too have no more units left to attempt charges with. Remember that much in the same fashion as the Movement and Shooting phases, if a player declares they have no more units they wish to select they cannot go back later and change their mind!

Resolve Combats sub-phase:
Unlike the Movement and Shooting phase, the Resolve Combats sub-phase does not use Pass Points. Determine a player at random by dicing off. That player decides if they wish to resolve a combat first or second this turn.

Next, the player who is resolving a combat first selects a combat in progress and the combat is resolved. Once the combat is fully resolved, the opposing player selects a different combat to resolve and resolves it. (I know it shouldn't need to be said, but you can't fight the same combat twice in one turn!).

This continues with players alternating back and forth until all combats have been resolved this turn.

The minutiæ of how a Close Combat is fought remains unchanged.


Vehicles
Blast Weapons:
Blast weapons that hit a vehicle but have no part of their hull underneath the centre hole of the Blast Marker strike the vehicle with -1 strength. If the centre hole is even partially above the hull the weapon hits at full strength.

Resolving Damage:
If a mobile vehicle would lose it's final Hull Point due to a Glancing Hit, it instead becomes Immobilised. If the vehicle is already immobilised, it will be wrecked as normal.

Mission Special Rules
Reserves:
Reserve rolls are now made at the start of the Move Units sub-phase and thus do not count towards Pass Point calculation. After determining which units are to arrive from reserve the phase proceeds as normal, with the players naturally having to select a unit that is arriving from reserve before selecting other units until no more units are arriving from reserve.
Units arriving from Ongoing Reserves do so at the start of the Move Units sub-phase and thus do not count towards Pass Point calculation.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/28 11:02:04


 
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






I'm prett sure that you have to move the ones who are falling back at the start of your movement phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
U basically add one more hp to vehicles. Will be a problem with wave serpents. They're allready almost immune to penetration hits. Maybe, restrict it to things that are not Fast. It's a pretty good thing for walkers and regular tanks. Those are the ones who should get buffed and not fast floating-around stuff that can shoot more guns and has a free 5+ cover all the time.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/03/29 08:16:36


 
   
Made in nl
Fresh-Faced New User




It all sounds good. I just have to wounder if smaller armies get a boost as in the movement phase they can use pass points to react to the enemy units and in the shooting phase they can fire all their units in a shorter space of time (which probably means a higher rate of damage output) before the opponent can.

Note: I think these are only small things but worth thinking about.
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






koooaei wrote:I'm prett sure that you have to move the ones who are falling back at the start of your movement phase.
That's why there is a subphase for moving them now.

koooaei wrote:
U basically add one more hp to vehicles. Will be a problem with wave serpents. They're allready almost immune to penetration hits. Maybe, restrict it to things that are not Fast. It's a pretty good thing for walkers and regular tanks. Those are the ones who should get buffed and not fast floating-around stuff that can shoot more guns and has a free 5+ cover all the time.

I just think it's silly that a glancing hit can turn a vehicle from perfectly functional to scrap. Perhaps make it so vehicles that moved flat out in the previous movement phase don't apply since they crash and burn?
Dragon_Cultist wrote:It all sounds good. I just have to wounder if smaller armies get a boost as in the movement phase they can use pass points to react to the enemy units and in the shooting phase they can fire all their units in a shorter space of time (which probably means a higher rate of damage output) before the opponent can.

Note: I think these are only small things but worth thinking about.

Yeah, but that's also balanced by the fact that smaller armies will have a lower volume of fire to shoot in the first place and larger armies can attempt to force the use of pass points by selecting units they do not want to move first.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/30 03:39:43


 
   
Made in nz
Disguised Speculo





Strongly, strongly dislike the pass points stuff. Just adds an unnecessary 'phase' to the game, and gives an advantage to smaller armies. If anything, I'd rather the encouragement of larger armies, making chaff a thing, weakening deathstars or Killpoint denial, and adding another layer to list building.

Also smaller armies do not inherently have a smaller volume of fire than larger ones. The inherent disadvantage lies with larger armies that give up more killpoints IMO. Though any reworked 40k that retained that awful mission isn't one I'd pay any attention to


edit; double post somehow

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/03/30 04:42:22


 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Armies are already ridiculously huge. Compare a 2k list from 3rd ed to 6th ed. You can easily fit twice as many models into it.

How would you suggest balance between larger armies being able to steamroll smaller ones in a alternating turn system? Don't just rubbish it, suggest improvements.
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






 BaconCatBug wrote:
Armies are already ridiculously huge. Compare a 2k list from 3rd ed to 6th ed. You can easily fit twice as many models into it.

How would you suggest balance between larger armies being able to steamroll smaller ones in a alternating turn system? Don't just rubbish it, suggest improvements.


Try to steamroll broadside list with a greentide...try to steamroll anything with a horde list actually.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/31 09:45:30


 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 koooaei wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Armies are already ridiculously huge. Compare a 2k list from 3rd ed to 6th ed. You can easily fit twice as many models into it.

How would you suggest balance between larger armies being able to steamroll smaller ones in a alternating turn system? Don't just rubbish it, suggest improvements.


Try to steamroll broadside list with a greentide...try to steamroll anything with a horde list actually.
So do you think that in an alternating move structure the smaller army doesn't need any sort of recourse to balance the fact the larger unit count army can react more to them? I'm just trying to think up of ways to keep things fair.
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User



Mississauga

This is a fantastic way to make my incredibly shooty Farsight Enclaves even more shooty and allow me to table people faster, thus I think it is a terrible idea as I already don't like playing because I feel like my local meta has not caught up to me.

More than two Riptides; live in your mother's basement. 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Markerlight Junkie wrote:
This is a fantastic way to make my incredibly shooty Farsight Enclaves even more shooty and allow me to table people faster, thus I think it is a terrible idea as I already don't like playing because I feel like my local meta has not caught up to me.
Can you explain how? Surely a shooty army benefits more from being able to unleash all their shooting at once with no enemy response possible?
   
Made in nl
Fresh-Faced New User





Honestly I feel any possible imbalances will be outweighed by the fact that going first is not so good as it is now and both sides can react to each other
   
Made in gb
Lieutenant Colonel




Hi folks.
Most people agree that the current Alternating Game Turn , is a poor choice of game turn mechanic to represent the implied fast paced action of 40k.
One army does nothing while all enemy units take all their actions unopposed!

As many have pointed out the disparity of number and size of units found in 40k ,makes alternating unit activation game turn mechanics only viable with heavy restrictions or additional conditional rules.

This leave alternating phases,(or alternating actions variant,) and variable bound game turn alternatives.

Variable bound game turns mean experience players get massive advantages over new players,which could be detrimental.

Alternating phases keeps the familiar sequence of actions in a slightly more interactive format.

A Moves.
B Moves
A Shoots
B Shoots
A Assaults
B Assaults.

This is the simplest game turn option that can be used with current rules with the minimum of alteration.

Some modern games break the phases up in a different format.

A Moves,
B Shoots
A Assaults.

B Moves
A Shoots
B Assaults

Alternating actions means actions are not restricted to phases , but players are free to move , shoot ,assault in their alternating action phases.

If there is more interaction in the game turn, overwatch is not really needed.

I think that current vehicle damage resolution in 40k is a complete dogs breakfast!
I would prefer a single damage resolution process to cover all units in a similar way.

I am happy to discuss more options in detail if anyone is interested?
   
 
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