Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

WOW. After a LONG time of being out of the hobby, and even longer off dakka, I am back from the astral plane with questions a plenty about my chosen army: Lizardmen. My brother finally get his Dwarf update, and my friend dusting off his Ogres has brought me around to the game once again.

With the Lizardmen FAQ (hopefully) right around the corner, I still have some questions that I don't see many threads asking about. Predatory Fighter has been beaten into the ground (on both sides), so that one will have to wait.

First: The Ark of Sotek and its special shooting attack. My question is: does this work on enemy units engaged in close combat? As it is a shooting attack, taking place in the Shooting Phase; and the BRB explicitly says shooting attacks cannot be aimed into combat - the attack cannot? In a similar-ish vein, direct damage spells cannot be case into combat. The text on pg. 49 of the Lizardmen book says all units within D6" take the 2D6 S2 hits, does the fact that this attack is qualified as 'special' mean anything (pertinent to this question)? Does the fact that it specifically states 'enemy units' remove the restriction laid out in the BRB that shooting into close combat is not permitted as there is a chance to hit friendly models/units/etc.? The Ark can be 'activated' if the Bastiladon has moved (marched/charged/etc.) and/or if it is engaged in close combat; while that doesn't necessarily mean the Ark can target enemy units in close combat, it would certain help the implication that it can.

Second: Regarding the Slann's Focus of Mystery Discipline (FoM) (pg. 61, Lizardmen book). This one seems like a stretch to me, but a friend brought it up and I can't help but wonder. This gives the Slann Loremaster (High Magic). My question: could I still take another Lore of Magic? The point I use to say YES, is that the Wandering Deliberations Discipline (above FoM) specifically states that it is 'Instead of generating spells normally...'; whereas the FoM Discipline does not, it merely gives the Slann the Loremaster (High Magic) special rule. The Loremaster (*) rule one pg. 72 of the BRB does not help clarify this at all. It seems that the procedure for choosing Lores and spells only allow you one choice of Lore and then a number of spells from it. The wording in the Slann's Magic rules (both pg. 31 and pg. 86) both say: '...is a Level 4 Wizard... who uses spells from the Lore of High Magic or one of the eight Lores...'. I realize the basis of this argument hinges on the specific meaning of the word USES here, which is why I think it's a stretch. But this wording could mean that, for example: I take a Slann with FoM and assign it Lore of Metal; I generate my four Metal spells to USE and then also have the whole of High Magic to USE, as well. In addition, we can compare the wording of FoM to another unit in the Lizardmen book: Lord Mazdamundi. Mazzie can select one of the eight, or High Magic, then, due to Mage-Lord of Hexoatl, 'has the Loremaster special rule for whichever Lore of Magic he chooses to select spells from.' (pg. 53).

Third: Skink and Kroxigor mixed units (Skrox). The Spawn-kin rule is long, so I am just going to pick out the parts I am questioning (pg. 38). The third paragraph, first line: 'Unless otherwise stated, close combat attacks can only target a Kroxigor...'. The important words here, are CAN ONLY. So does this mean: Skinks can only be the target of Stomps/Thunderstomps until any and all Kroxigor in the unit are dead? What about wounds caused in excess of a lone or the last Kroxigor's wounds (ex: 5 unsaved wounds against one Kroxigor in a unit of eight Cohorts)? The most confusing situation for me is the way the Kroxigor sit in the second rank is based on the width of the first rank (unlike Tetto'Eko, who follows the rules for Palanquins and five model minimum front rank). The rule seems to allow Cohorts to be attacked directly, so long as the Cohort model is not in base contact with a Kroxigor. But does this mean that offsetting a Kroxigor in a unit, can cause specific forced targeting of attacks? I can draw up/explain an example if my question isn't clear for the last bit.

Thanks guys, good to be back.

1 - No it can't be cast into close combat, unfortunately

2 - If you are a high magic loremaster you known all those spells but if you use a different lore you are not a loremaster of it, but this one i am unsure of.

3 - You fight against the kroxigors, however I think wounds roll over, ie 2 kroxigors suffer 7 wounds, both die and one skink. Thunderstomps and stomps kill skinks directly

Hope that helps

2. If you are a Loremaster, you only know the stated lore. The Slann can use High Magic or any of the 8 lores. If he gets the Mystery Discipline, he now have Loremaster(High Magic). He is unable to chose a different lore.

Boy, that really makes the Ark shooting attack pretty pointless. That's too bad. At least the Swarm addition function is sort of useful.

My further question about the Skrox unit involves not centering the Kroxigor in the Cohorts, or 2+ Cohort on the side of a Kroxigor in the unit. I will try and show it with some crappy letters below.
Where each letter is a base or part of one, and: K = Kroxigor C = Cohort O = Ogre; I won't try and do a model with a different footprint, but the same type question applies.

K K s s s
K K s s s
s s s s s
O O O O
O O O O

So in this crap there are two Ogres attacking the one Kroxigor and eleven Cohorts. Because the ogre on the right (in bold) is corner-to-corner with a Cohort that is corner-to-corner with a Kroxigor, does that mean that both Ogres can only direct attacks at the Kroxigor? That's the way the Spawn-kin rule seems to word it: '...is in base contact with a Skink who is in turn in base contact with a Kroxigor.". If this is the case, then the optimal configuration for the unit is one Cohort on each end, and two Cohorts between each Kroxigor; for the most attacks (especially in horde which is easy to do with Skinks).

Also, would then, a Skrox unit with Tetto'Eko in the second rank allow enemies to attack the (minimum) two Cohorts in front, as they cannot be corner-to-corner with a Kroxigor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But where in the rules does it state that having the Loremaster special rule excludes you from having another lore? In Tetto'Eko's rules, it specifically says he uses Heavens. In Mazzie's rules is specifically says Loremaster for chosen Lore. The FoM only says you have Loremaster (High), and, unlike WD, there is no qualification preventing you from choosing spells normally, chiefly: another Lore and four spells from it.

My question is, why wouldn't the Slann follow the normal rules for spell generation? If he has loremaster in somthing he is bound to that lore and that lore alone just like every other wizard with loremaster. Is there some hidden, read-between-the-lines rule that allows the Slann to have two lores? Occam's Razor (not the mind version) would suggest this is not the case.

I believe it spells it out in the Loremaster(*) section on page 72. It reads "A Wizard with the Loremaster special rule knows all the spells FROM HIS CHOSEN LORE..." Bold added by me for emphasis. When you buy Focus of Mastery it gives you Loremaster(High) which from the wording above essentially chooses your lore for you, since you can't choose more than one lore. Since the Slann has no other rule that says he may generate spells from multiple lores, he only knows High Magic, but knows all the spells. If he could generate another lore what's to stop any wizard from generating a few spells from one lore and a few from another? When wizards can generate spells from multiple lores (Kairos, Count Mannfred, Teclis...) it's pretty clearly spelled out as an exception to the norm in their special rules. I've never understood why there's confusion on this one... it's pretty clear in the rules and it's obvious what they meant by it.

*Edited a stupid typo

 plusARGON wrote:
Boy, that really makes the Ark shooting attack pretty pointless. That's too bad. At least the Swarm addition function is sort of useful.

My further question about the Skrox unit involves not centering the Kroxigor in the Cohorts, or 2+ Cohort on the side of a Kroxigor in the unit. I will try and show it with some crappy letters below.
Where each letter is a base or part of one, and: K = Kroxigor C = Cohort O = Ogre; I won't try and do a model with a different footprint, but the same type question applies.

K K s s s
K K s s s
s s s s s
O O O O
O O O O

So in this crap there are two Ogres attacking the one Kroxigor and eleven Cohorts. Because the ogre on the right (in bold) is corner-to-corner with a Cohort that is corner-to-corner with a Kroxigor, does that mean that both Ogres can only direct attacks at the Kroxigor? That's the way the Spawn-kin rule seems to word it: '...is in base contact with a Skink who is in turn in base contact with a Kroxigor.". If this is the case, then the optimal configuration for the unit is one Cohort on each end, and two Cohorts between each Kroxigor; for the most attacks (especially in horde which is easy to do with Skinks).

Also, would then, a Skrox unit with Tetto'Eko in the second rank allow enemies to attack the (minimum) two Cohorts in front, as they cannot be corner-to-corner with a Kroxigor.

I think you are reading the Spawn kin rule incorrectly if I understand what you are asking. You seem to be reading it as limiting the opponent's ability to attack the skinks, which is not the case. What it does is give an allowance for the opponent to target the kroxigors when they normally would not be able to.

"...close combat attacks can only target Kroxigor within a mixed unit if an enemy model is in base contact with a Kroxigor, or if an enemy model is in base contact with a Skink who is in turn in base contact with a Kroxigor."

Compare this to the statement : "You can only go outside if you put on your shoes.

Now if you were told this, you would not think that if you put your shoes on, the only course of action you may take is to go outside. Rather that you are being given the allowance to go outside if you satisfy the condition of putting your shoes on. It is the same with the rule.

Granted, a better way of making a statement like this is to use "If [condition] you may [action]".

2. Strictly speaking in a RAW stance here, yes, if you take loremaster high magic, it does not lock you into choosing that lore, so you are free to take LM HM and still generate from the lore of life for example.

This is because the Loremaster rule says "you do not have to roll", instead of "do not roll", there is nothing expliciting preventing you from rolling.

It is similar to the Khemrian Sphinx, if it gives you Loremaster (Death) you don't suddenly lose your spells because loremaster does not lock you in.

This is of course assuming that there is nothing in the Slann's Discipline that states you can't choose another lore.

HIWIPI: You buy Loremaster (High Magic) you stay with High Magic.

There was a big ol' thread on the Slann and Loremaster (High) a while back. I don't recall what the consensus was.
The crux of the argument, for those who don't see how there could possibly be a debate, can be seen in the example with the Sphinx Krellnus stated above (great reference, by the way). Most Wizards are a lvlX with Loremaster. So you pick their Lore, and bam! All the spells.
But a Slann is a lvl4, and he can also gain Loremaster (High). Nothing specifically says "this replaces his normal spell generation". He just also happens to gain all the High spells.

...not sure what they really intended, honestly. Hard to say with the Slann. They knocked them down hard since their last book (as they should have; those guys were truly awful to face). But maybe they wanted a Slann with a ton o' spells.

Malestrom808 has it right on #3. The rule is telling you when you're allowed to attack Kroxigor, not when you're not allowed to attack Skinks.
That...that would be a pretty sick unit. T4 4+ Skinks with a handful of S7 attacks coming out of the unit each turn...

And yes, sadly the Ark isn't all that great. I feel like these Swarms are So. Close. to being good. Giving everyone poison sounds awesome. But you'll have to commit a lot of points to a fight to prevent those swarms from crumbling away.
Maybe blocks of Saurus and Rippers?
Anyway, I'd recommend the big Diamond-Sun-Lazor. Potentially scary bound spell, there. And +1I is a nice little buff. 16% less casualties from Pit and Sun, and your Saurus now swing at the same time as Dwarfs and Ogres.

Are you all seriously trying to say that for 35 pts you get Loremaster (High) and 4 spells from some other lore? Which is kind of approaching Kairos Fateweaver awesomeness (who is a 545pt monster who can't join temple guard btw).

Loremaster quite clearly tells you the lore in question is usually given in brackets (well, parens). Which you'll see all across the books. Loremaster (Nekh), Loremaster (High), Loremaster (Vampires), Loremaster (Tzen), etc.

None of those characters chose it, but it doesn't break the Loremaster special rule.

I recently played a small, one-thousand point game revolving around Tehenhuain, Jungle Swarms and and Ark of Sotek. It was actually an amazing set up that I think could work at higher points, making the Jungle Swarms more viable. At thirty-five points AND special, they are a costly unit for what they do. However, the Ark give the unit free Swarm bases and Tehenhuain makes them Unbreakable and ignores the Squish! special rule. It makes the unit impossibly hard to kill, as each swarm has 5W. In the game I played, I was able to kill six Ogres (from a unit of sixteen) and tie it up for a majority of the game; the Ark's shooting attack managed to kill a few Gnoblars with some creative positioning (whomp whomp). I really like Tehenhuain, so I would definitely use the set up again. At the end of the day, I think the DINOLAZER is much better, though, especially with a Slann.

To clarify question two, I don't think at all that taking FoM allows a Slann to take another Lore of Magic. I meant for argument's sake that the wording of the Discipline itself could allow for this. As it does not specify that High Magic is the 'chosen lore' or that you do not 'choose spells normal (rolling)' just because the Slann has taken FoM and been given the Loremaster (High) special rule.

Also, I get the Spawn-kin distinction now. I was taking the 'can only' as direction to attack ONLY the Kroxigor, instead of that's WHEN you can attack the Kroxigor. I GET it now.

The lore being chosen for you doesnt mean the lore wasnt chosen.

The loremaster one requires an FAQ, as the rule does not limit you to a single lore. It just states that the wizard knows all of lore x. And up till now, loremaster was given at the rules stage with a single lore that the character already knows.