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So I built 3 lists and they all seem pretty good but im unsure which you guys think is the best so here it goes: (one has csm main but really is daemons tbh)

1)
C:SM

Be'lakor

tz daemon prince
black mace, wings, power armor

10 cultists
10 cultists
10 cultists

heldrake
heldrake

Daemon (allies)

Kairos

10 Daemonettes

Tz Daemon Prince lvl 3
wings, warp-forged armor
1 greater gift , 1 exalted gift (grimoire)

So thats 4 flying monstrous creatures with 2 heldrakes and 4 scoring units. Powerful punch and if imperial knights are at the tourny I would say this army counters them pretty well

2) Daemons

Kairos

Herald of tz lvl 3
Disc, exalted gift(grimoire)
Herald of tz lvl 3
Disc, exalted gift(portalglyph)
Herald of tz lvl 3
Disc, exalted locus
Herald of tz lvl 1
Disc

11 daemonettes
11 daemonettes
10 daemonettes

C:SM

Be'lakor

10 cultists

Heldrake


This is the strongest screamer star I could come up with as it allows me to invisibility kairos (2+ save in cover) be'lakor has shrouded and is a tiny model so he is easy to hide (and packs a punch) and 8/9ths of the time my screamer star has a rerollable 2++ with up to 14d6 str 6 shots(depending on other powers I use in the turn). Also with so much access to divination i have a pretty good chance at Scrier's Gaze making all my troop units more reliable scorers. Also access to the portalglyph is nice for that last extra bit of scoring.

3) Daemons
Kairos

Keeper of secrets lvl 3
greater, exalted(portal glyph)

10 daemonettes
10 daemonettes
10 daemonettes

SL daemon prince lvl 3
wings, warp-forge armor
greater, exalted(grimoire)

SL daemon prince lvl 3
wings, warp-forge armor
2x greater

SL daemon prince lvl 3
wings, warp-forge armor
2x greater


This last list is cool because it give me up to 4 lash of dispair and if I decide to take biomancy on the princes it makes them super deadly. Only issue is no heldrake and no Be'lakor. I could switch a prince and a unit of daemonettes for Be'lakor and cultists + a few points but I'm not sure.

Overall I think all of these lists are very powerful and kind of shows the flexibility of the codex(though kairos is a staple).

Let me know what you guys think and thanks in advance.

List one is interesting for sure, and list 3 has potential, how many points are these lists (too lazy to fire up army builder).

they are all 1850

We'll it seems like you are a fmc circus fan. Are you pretty set on these lists or willing to try another option?

By all mean I'd love to see what other ideas you'd have

This is what I am taking to adepticon

Fateweaver
Lord of change
-ml 3, 2 greater gifts

10 daemonetts
-sgt
10 plague bearers
-sgt

Prince
-ml3 , greater gift, exalted gift, mot, wings, armor
Prince
-ml3 , greater gift, exalted gift, mot, wings, armor

Bastion

Sorc

10 cultists

Helldrake

In testing so far I'm 4-1-1 with it, the only loss so far was the mirror match.

I have played ovessa star, centurion star, seer star, normal tau, farsighted bomb, the mirror. IMO this list shores up the tau match up which IMO Is the worst match up for this army.

Why use the loc? Is it the access to divination? Also what does the sorc do for you?
Thanks

Lamo wrote:
Why use the loc? Is it the access to divination? Also what does the sorc do for you?
Thanks

Sorc is the hell drake tax, and yes access to div means the loc has the potential to be a monster

Maybe it's my misunderstanding of the loc's power but wouldn't Ur list
-loc
-sorc
- maxed out tz dp
+be'lakor
+comms relay
+ maxed out Slanesh dp

be stronger? Be'lakor with all of telepathy his armor bane / flesh bane sword +4 invul and shrouded just feel stronger. Also I think the Slanesh Dp gives you more air control and is still a great delivery system for the portal glyph.

Lamo wrote:
Maybe it's my misunderstanding of the loc's power but wouldn't Ur list
-loc
-sorc
- maxed out tz dp
+be'lakor
+comms relay
+ maxed out Slanesh dp

be stronger? Be'lakor with all of telepathy his armor bane / flesh bane sword +4 invul and shrouded just feel stronger. Also I think the Slanesh Dp gives you more air control and is still a great delivery system for the portal glyph.

The matchups you are worried about (tau, sometimes eldar) all the tele rolls in the world will not save you. and Beles weak save, while it can be improved to a 2+ , cant be rerolled will not help you take advantage of his EW. The lord of change on the other hand has the potential to become a combat monster and the potential to get the 2++ rerollable, with 4+ fnp I also can not down play the importance of scriers gaze which belekor cant get you.

Coms rely is really really nice, but there are just no points to fit it in 1850

I like MOS dps but in this list unless you drop the loc for a keeper (not worth it as the keeper is 2nd tier compared to the loc) you cant fit it.

So FMC circus biggest weakness is tau (namely tau tau) it is by far the worst match up. It is a matchup that is so bad it is almost impossible to make up with even with superior play skill. After adding the bastion and the loc, I have found they do more then belkor ever could. Belkor doesn't add anything that fmcs cant access minus his ew (which you can actually get from a black legion prince, but that list doesnt work until 2k). Sure every tele power is nice, but you will almost always have a workable combation of powers randomally rolling.

Check out this battle report where I take on the inventor of Ovessastar and 2013 nova open winner justin cook to see how much of a difference the bastion made in this previously almost unwinnable matchup.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gBYDEG_TLk

Lost twice this weekend with this list, but it was in the adepticon mission with the relic primary and 4 corner objectives (the worst mission at adepticon for this list) vs a blob and scouting bike star which both can grab the relic very early. Both games were very close considering how poor the match up is for me and I am confident I can get the relic matches down to 2ndaries most of the time which I have about a 50/50 shot of winning. (very good odds imo).

De-La-Warr?!

Damned Heldrakes! I will destroy them all!

Saythings wrote:
De-La-Warr?!

Damned Heldrakes! I will destroy them all!

I won't be there :/

Aww. That's ashame.

About the lists: I liked the 3rd list the best. My brother will be running a similar one. Why Daemonettes over Horrors? Horrors seem to get a least a few wounds off when they deepstrike in.

Any troops in a flying circus don't do much. They usually hide, why not get a few shots off before they die? Daemonettes die too fast and can't really do anything before they get focused. Same for horrors, but they might get a few shots off before doing so.

Saythings wrote:
Aww. That's ashame.

About the lists: I liked the 3rd list the best. My brother will be running a similar one. Why Daemonettes over Horrors? Horrors seem to get a least a few wounds off when they deepstrike in.

Any troops in a flying circus don't do much. They usually hide, why not get a few shots off before they die? Daemonettes die too fast and can't really do anything before they get focused. Same for horrors, but they might get a few shots off before doing so.

the thing about horrors is that if i deepstrike them late game and they land a lil far away...i lose the game. On the other hand fleet + 3 inches more run from daemonettes means i can cover a decent amount of ground with those ladies.

I've been looking hard to make the list better and from what I can see in john parsons list (thanks for those youtube videos bro they are awesome) is that heldrakes, bastions and the ability to control reserves really wins the games. So here goes another shot at a good list.

Be'lakor

10 cultists
10 cultists

Heldrake
Heldrake
Heldrake

Kairos
10 daemonettes
10 plaguebearers
tz daemon prince lvl 2
wings armor exalted (grim)

bastion with comms relay

So now im down to 3 fmc but also have 3 drakes and a comms relay bastion which helps with those reserve rolls. I also have two daemon troop units because they are at least a lil resilient. One question I had was if scriers gaze is so important wouldn't the comms (which is the cost of a greater gift) be a good choice due to the reliability of having it every game?

Let me know what you think

Lamo wrote:

Saythings wrote:
Aww. That's ashame.

About the lists: I liked the 3rd list the best. My brother will be running a similar one. Why Daemonettes over Horrors? Horrors seem to get a least a few wounds off when they deepstrike in.

Any troops in a flying circus don't do much. They usually hide, why not get a few shots off before they die? Daemonettes die too fast and can't really do anything before they get focused. Same for horrors, but they might get a few shots off before doing so.

the thing about horrors is that if i deepstrike them late game and they land a lil far away...i lose the game. On the other hand fleet + 3 inches more run from daemonettes means i can cover a decent amount of ground with those ladies.

I've been looking hard to make the list better and from what I can see in john parsons list (thanks for those youtube videos bro they are awesome) is that heldrakes, bastions and the ability to control reserves really wins the games. So here goes another shot at a good list.

Be'lakor

10 cultists
10 cultists

Heldrake
Heldrake
Heldrake

Kairos
10 daemonettes
10 plaguebearers
tz daemon prince lvl 2
wings armor exalted (grim)

bastion with comms relay

So now im down to 3 fmc but also have 3 drakes and a comms relay bastion which helps with those reserve rolls. I also have two daemon troop units because they are at least a lil resilient. One question I had was if scriers gaze is so important wouldn't the comms (which is the cost of a greater gift) be a good choice due to the reliability of having it every game?

Let me know what you think

That is the debate I have with horrors and daemonetts, that run move into cover or out of los is hugeeeee, but the horrors do have a better save and a "gun" if I need it. That said If I was going to run horrors I would run 11 so I would loose the sargents.

A few things about your list.
I prefer daemons as main as the warpstorm table will help you far more then it will hurt you imo. I rolled a double 1 for the first time I can remember this past weekend and I have played 50+ games with the list. The ability to randomally roll a 10.11.or 12 at a random point in the game is huge and I can't understate how important it is. Also fateweaver is a hard warlord to kill.

But if you want to go chaos main here is what id do.

Note, I always thought you gained much less in your return in investment going from 2 helldrakes to 3 drakes. 2 seems to be the magical number.

A list I would test IF you wanted to go chaos main, and thats a big IF (as I said I prefer daemons main) I would try the following

Be'lakor (warlord) 350
Black legion Daemon prince 270
-mot, gift of mutation, the skull of ker ngar
cultists 50
cultists 50
helldrake 175
helldrake 175
bastion
lord of change 295
-2 greater gifts, ml2
daemonetts 90
daemon prince 330
-mot, armor, wings, ml 2

You loose access to the portol and the fateweaver reroll, but you gain 2 ew princes that could come in handy late game, and the potential for a 2+++ save if you get forwarning. You would have to play this list alot more passively then my 1850 list an have the 2 drakes to the heavy lifting (very possible). However at the end of the game you would have 3 fmcs you could throw into combat with no fear of things like instant death which is important. You would also need potentially roll all 3 of the loc rolls on div to make sure you get scriers gaze

You could also drop the lord of change and gift of mutation on the prince to add fateweaver and put a sargent in the daemonette unit, it would look like this

Both lists are black legion main, daemon allies

Be'lakor (warlord) 350
Black legion Daemon prince 260
-mot, the skull of ker ngar
cultists 50
cultists 50
helldrake 175
helldrake 175
bastion
Fateweaver 300
-2 greater gifts, ml2
daemonetts 95
-sgt
daemon prince 330
-mot, armor, wings, ml 2

With this list you would loose the combat monster that is the lord of change, but you could be MUCH more aggressive with fateweaver (hes not your warlord) and would be able to play this list closer to the daemon main version. The reroll is huge and fateweaver is a much better gun platform then the lord of change is. You also keep your 2++ rerollable inv save. You would have to be very protective of your troops and employ risky plans like force mishaping your daemonetts and burning your reroll to get the result you need to keep them off the table. For the prince if you need the extra gun you take ff, if you need to stay alive and grim things you can take 2 rolls on tele.

Overall I think I like the 2nd list better but those are the 2 builds I would start with if I wanted to attempt chaos main

 krootman. wrote:

Lamo wrote:

Saythings wrote:
Aww. That's ashame.

About the lists: I liked the 3rd list the best. My brother will be running a similar one. Why Daemonettes over Horrors? Horrors seem to get a least a few wounds off when they deepstrike in.

Any troops in a flying circus don't do much. They usually hide, why not get a few shots off before they die? Daemonettes die too fast and can't really do anything before they get focused. Same for horrors, but they might get a few shots off before doing so.

the thing about horrors is that if i deepstrike them late game and they land a lil far away...i lose the game. On the other hand fleet + 3 inches more run from daemonettes means i can cover a decent amount of ground with those ladies.

I've been looking hard to make the list better and from what I can see in john parsons list (thanks for those youtube videos bro they are awesome) is that heldrakes, bastions and the ability to control reserves really wins the games. So here goes another shot at a good list.

Be'lakor

10 cultists
10 cultists

Heldrake
Heldrake
Heldrake

Kairos
10 daemonettes
10 plaguebearers
tz daemon prince lvl 2
wings armor exalted (grim)

bastion with comms relay

So now im down to 3 fmc but also have 3 drakes and a comms relay bastion which helps with those reserve rolls. I also have two daemon troop units because they are at least a lil resilient. One question I had was if scriers gaze is so important wouldn't the comms (which is the cost of a greater gift) be a good choice due to the reliability of having it every game?

Let me know what you think

That is the debate I have with horrors and daemonetts, that run move into cover or out of los is hugeeeee, but the horrors do have a better save and a "gun" if I need it. That said If I was going to run horrors I would run 11 so I would loose the sargents.

But dont the Sargents let you use precision fire for your spells?

Lamo wrote:

 krootman. wrote:

Lamo wrote:

Saythings wrote:
Aww. That's ashame.

About the lists: I liked the 3rd list the best. My brother will be running a similar one. Why Daemonettes over Horrors? Horrors seem to get a least a few wounds off when they deepstrike in.

Any troops in a flying circus don't do much. They usually hide, why not get a few shots off before they die? Daemonettes die too fast and can't really do anything before they get focused. Same for horrors, but they might get a few shots off before doing so.

the thing about horrors is that if i deepstrike them late game and they land a lil far away...i lose the game. On the other hand fleet + 3 inches more run from daemonettes means i can cover a decent amount of ground with those ladies.

I've been looking hard to make the list better and from what I can see in john parsons list (thanks for those youtube videos bro they are awesome) is that heldrakes, bastions and the ability to control reserves really wins the games. So here goes another shot at a good list.

Be'lakor

10 cultists
10 cultists

Heldrake
Heldrake
Heldrake

Kairos
10 daemonettes
10 plaguebearers
tz daemon prince lvl 2
wings armor exalted (grim)

bastion with comms relay

So now im down to 3 fmc but also have 3 drakes and a comms relay bastion which helps with those reserve rolls. I also have two daemon troop units because they are at least a lil resilient. One question I had was if scriers gaze is so important wouldn't the comms (which is the cost of a greater gift) be a good choice due to the reliability of having it every game?

Let me know what you think

That is the debate I have with horrors and daemonetts, that run move into cover or out of los is hugeeeee, but the horrors do have a better save and a "gun" if I need it. That said If I was going to run horrors I would run 11 so I would loose the sargents.

But dont the Sargents let you use precision fire for your spells?

The sargents are there to eat a challenge from a combat character to keep them alive long enough for a prince to back them up. Also in case I roll 3 on the warpstorm, potential throw away characters to take the test over my important ones.

I agree with a lot that's been mentioned. 11 Horrors w/ Sergeants for challenges/precision shots, etc.

I like Fateweaver as warlord and 3 DP (Slannesh with Keeper, or 3 Tzeen) better than 2 Heldrakes (as your primary).

If you did go Heldrakes, I'd only get 1 and keep them as ally with naked Sorcerer.

Saythings wrote:
I agree with a lot that's been mentioned. 11 Horrors w/ Sergeants for challenges/precision shots, etc.

I like Fateweaver as warlord and 3 DP (Slannesh with Keeper, or 3 Tzeen) better than 2 Heldrakes (as your primary).

If you did go Heldrakes, I'd only get 1 and keep them as ally with naked Sorcerer.

The only issue with that list is it get murdered vs tau tau, that was the list I was running before I was convinced, and changed to the current time build

Assuming you're getting murdered by the shooting they can put out by Tau? It's really a race to CC for your FMCs. I'd argue with decent terrain placement and good positioning, even a Tau army can be outplayed.

The more recent GTs are realizing the lack of terrain in 6th's shooting meta is the reason why assault armies are struggling. To compensate, most GTs have been using 8-10 medium pieces of terrain, a minimum of 4 large LOS pieces IIRC. With that kind of terrain, I'd argue that 4 FMCs and a Heldrake would be fine against Tau. Keep them in combat and you're golden. (If you're playing games without 12 (on average) pieces of terrain, there isn't enough. You're suppose to have d3 on each 2x2. ~12 pieces.)

Note that "Not 7th edition" will be coming out this summer. There is word that "Massacering" from one CC to another will be brought back into the game. Obviously not a quick fix, but will making assaulting armies (FMCs) a lot more durable if kept into combat. It'll definitely stop gunlines that turtle up.

Saythings wrote:
Assuming you're getting murdered by the shooting they can put out by Tau? It's really a race to CC for your FMCs. I'd argue with decent terrain placement and good positioning, even a Tau army can be outplayed.

The more recent GTs are realizing the lack of terrain in 6th's shooting meta is the reason why assault armies are struggling. To compensate, most GTs have been using 8-10 medium pieces of terrain, a minimum of 4 large LOS pieces IIRC. With that kind of terrain, I'd argue that 4 FMCs and a Heldrake would be fine against Tau. Keep them in combat and you're golden. (If you're playing games without 12 (on average) pieces of terrain, there isn't enough. You're suppose to have d3 on each 2x2. ~12 pieces.)

Note that "Not 7th edition" will be coming out this summer. There is word that "Massacering" from one CC to another will be brought back into the game. Obviously not a quick fix, but will making assaulting armies (FMCs) a lot more durable if kept into combat. It'll definitely stop gunlines that turtle up.

I'd love this, but I'm fairly skeptical. I feel like GW is more or less going to consolidate, Escalation, Stronghold Assault, FAQ's, maybe even hopefully FAQ other things that need fixing, put it in a hardback and charge us ~$60. If it happens, yay, but I really doubt it.

I like your pessimism! GW thrives off that.

But even if you're right, GTs are adding more terrain to compensate for assault armies. I still think FMCs lists can beat Tau. It just requires more strategy and critical deployment.

Which is totally cool in my book. Assualt oriented armies have always been my favorite. And yes I do agree with you that it's possible to beat Tau with a Flying Circus. Flying Circi are just so stressful to play that I don't really enjoy it (at the moment anyhow, I do want to try one eventually). I much prefer having more models. I'm fine with removing handfuls of hounds because I know that at least some of them will reach the stinking space goats lines

As an avid FMC player myself, I will say, if you take nothing else from this thread, add a Bastion. Comms relay if you have the points.

Being able to survive an alpha strike with 0 wounds is fantastic!

Also, against Tau. Don't be afraid to Grimoir fateweaver and then fly him in front of the entire tau gunline while the rest of your FMCs hide or fly off the board. Do that while strategically targeting troops and you will win a lot of those matchups.

 krootman. wrote:
This is what I am taking to adepticon

Fateweaver
Lord of change
-ml 3, 2 greater gifts

10 daemonetts
-sgt
10 plague bearers
-sgt

Prince
-ml3 , greater gift, exalted gift, mot, wings, armor
Prince
-ml3 , greater gift, exalted gift, mot, wings, armor

Bastion

Sorc

10 cultists

Helldrake

In testing so far I'm 4-1-1 with it, the only loss so far was the mirror match.

I have played ovessa star, centurion star, seer star, normal tau, farsighted bomb, the mirror. IMO this list shores up the tau match up which IMO Is the worst match up for this army.

Thanks for your help making lists and congrats to your team for winning with more or less this list .

 krootman. wrote:
This is what I am taking to adepticon

Fateweaver
Lord of change
-ml 3, 2 greater gifts

10 daemonetts
-sgt
10 plague bearers
-sgt

Prince
-ml3 , greater gift, exalted gift, mot, wings, armor
Prince
-ml3 , greater gift, exalted gift, mot, wings, armor

Bastion

Sorc

10 cultists

Helldrake

In testing so far I'm 4-1-1 with it, the only loss so far was the mirror match.

I have played ovessa star, centurion star, seer star, normal tau, farsighted bomb, the mirror. IMO this list shores up the tau match up which IMO Is the worst match up for this army.

Dude did you just win Adepticon???
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/04/40k-unbeatable-list-adepticon-winning.html

 astro_nomicon wrote:

 krootman. wrote:
This is what I am taking to adepticon

Fateweaver
Lord of change
-ml 3, 2 greater gifts

10 daemonetts
-sgt
10 plague bearers
-sgt

Prince
-ml3 , greater gift, exalted gift, mot, wings, armor
Prince
-ml3 , greater gift, exalted gift, mot, wings, armor

Bastion

Sorc

10 cultists

Helldrake

In testing so far I'm 4-1-1 with it, the only loss so far was the mirror match.

I have played ovessa star, centurion star, seer star, normal tau, farsighted bomb, the mirror. IMO this list shores up the tau match up which IMO Is the worst match up for this army.

Dude did you just win Adepticon???
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/04/40k-unbeatable-list-adepticon-winning.html

No it was his teammate they played more or less the same army besides troop choices.

Add a soul grinder

 astro_nomicon wrote:

 krootman. wrote:
This is what I am taking to adepticon

Fateweaver
Lord of change
-ml 3, 2 greater gifts

10 daemonetts
-sgt
10 plague bearers
-sgt

Prince
-ml3 , greater gift, exalted gift, mot, wings, armor
Prince
-ml3 , greater gift, exalted gift, mot, wings, armor

Bastion

Sorc

10 cultists

Helldrake

In testing so far I'm 4-1-1 with it, the only loss so far was the mirror match.

I have played ovessa star, centurion star, seer star, normal tau, farsighted bomb, the mirror. IMO this list shores up the tau match up which IMO Is the worst match up for this army.

Dude did you just win Adepticon???
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/04/40k-unbeatable-list-adepticon-winning.html

LOL naaa, it was my good friend and roomate who I stole the list from (and have been helping him test) who was also my first loss with the army haha (its on video on the sg utube channel if anyone wants to see it). I went 3 and 1 loosing to crons. Ironically not having a staff of change probably cost me a shot at the top 16 :(


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Trix wrote:
Add a soul grinder

That was my other friend Rob tilly who lost to Nick in the finals, who also made me eat crow because I told him theres no way that version would pull out victories vs tau hahaha.

krootman or trix. How do you go about beating tau without a bastion? (with one i kinda get but if you guys could expand on that as well it be great )