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It's been slowly eating at me for a while and I have to ask to get it off my chest... Why are Regular, Non named space marine captains so lame? they do nothing for an amy that a librarian or chaplain cant do, and even melee captains are considered inferior compared to Chapter Masters. They should be leaders of the companies and should have access to tactics and abilities to represent that! (aside from a random roll which you cannot actively effect short of Azreal or Calgar)

When I picture a captain, in my mind I see what is akin to the siege master from the Vanguard list or a Centurion from the Horus Heresy list. Someone who can activly affect a battle field and lead his men to victory, boosting the effectiveness of a squad or adding buffs based around what he is for.

Why don't 40k marines of all varieties have a "Master of Signals" that can call for support and co-ordinate fire at certain targets? Why isn't there a Siege Breaker or Vigilator for regular chapters? If I was a Ravenguard or raptor player I would love to have my captain be a sneaky stealth master.

Special Characters are cool and awesome but I just feel there may be more variety if you can have a vanilla captain add more to an army than just be a buffed up sergeant with no real afect on an army.


(okay, a bit of a rant post)

Captains aren't useful because Chapter Masters exist and are a lot more effective for points.

Hey Titus was a badass!

Honestly, I play BA so...yeah I kind of wonder the same thing too. Maybe we should justs do away with them? They seem pretty superfluous...

Fluff-wise, anything they can do, a Chapter Master should theoretically also be able to do. (And better.) So, unless you want to explain why Chapter Masters somehow forget how to lead their men, the only way to make a Captain appealing is to reduce the cost. But in order to make either option useful, you've got to dump a fethload of points into their Wargear anyways, so you're already spending so much that there is no reason whatsoever to take the thrifty choice.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Fluff-wise, anything they can do, a Chapter Master should theoretically also be able to do. (And better.) So, unless you want to explain why Chapter Masters somehow forget how to lead their men, the only way to make a Captain appealing is to reduce the cost. But in order to make either option useful, you've got to dump a fethload of points into their Wargear anyways, so you're already spending so much that there is no reason whatsoever to take the thrifty choice.

Yep this is pretty much it.

Though it should be noted some of the special characters are essentially captains.

The real problem with the captain is not his price it is the price of his wargear is the same as a chapter master despite him being worse with the same gear. He is pretty great in 500-750 pts games though.

Thats fine, and even vanilla chapter masters should just have something that also boosts them up! make them like preatorians and give the army some extra special for being so elite!

this isn't about the damned point cost it is about rules and buffs they can give out for being a captain of a super human strike force

The problem is that outside of the special character Captains who do have special rules, points costs is the only real major difference between a Chapter Master and a Captain. I'd love for Captains to be more useful (perhaps give them a rule that benefits the army by having it reflect the company they lead be it a Tactical, Assault, Devastator or Scout Company) but as it stands there is no reason to really take a generic captain, and that's sad.

The "damned points costs" are part of the reason. You're asking a question, and that's the answer to the question.

Sure, we can give captains a rule called "tactical master" that gives his squad and every unit within 12'' inches of him a 3+ invulnerable save, and we can give him Imperial Guard-esque orders that allow him to give a squad preferred enemy against a vehicle or a monster, and we can give him all kinds of stuff.

But that would be broken as gak unless it was costed appropriately. And, more to the point, you'd have to give those same abilities to every other captain as well, including the named characters.

So sure. Captains can be hyper badass, and then they'll cost triple their current points. Captains might not be super amazing, but they're fair for what they cost.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
The problem is that outside of the special character Captains who do have special rules, points costs is the only real major difference between a Chapter Master and a Captain. I'd love for Captains to be more useful (perhaps give them a rule that benefits the army by having it reflect the company they lead be it a Tactical, Assault, Devastator or Scout Company) but as it stands there is no reason to really take a generic captain, and that's sad.

Thats the whole point of me asking. there should be no such thing as a "generic captain" or a "generic chapter master" rule wise. they could really do fun things!
http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/6th_Edition_Tactics/Space_Marine_Legion_List_(30k)#HQ_Units

okay I know 1d4chan nluh bluh but look at the centurion section! look at all the things they could be and how that effects the armies they are in! look how a praetorian, the equivalent to a chapter master, can mold the army into something fitting for fluff!

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/6th_Edition_Tactics/Space_Marines/Siege_Assault_Vanguard

go down to the siege master and see how this scrub can boost stuff for an army! he's flipping awesome! and he's just a regular captain in 40k without a name!

I think the only way to really 'fix' captains is to make them buildable from the ground up.

You start with a Vet Sgt in terms of their statline (roughly 34 pts cost) then you add everything from the ground up.

Start with 'specialisations, or the like, allowing them to boost stats, wounds, etc. Then allow things like pysker upgrade, devastator specialist, assault specialist giving specific rules to the character allowing them to buff and then finally wargear.

If someone wants a 2 wound Vet Sgt statline leader for 40 odd points they can, at the same time if someone wants to make a 200pt killing machine one man army they can as well.

Introducing this to all armies leaders would give the flexibility to have what they want or need to buff their particular force.

Tyranid Codex 4th Edition Style? I dunno if that really fits the fluff that well, but it would be interesting.

I think it does fit the fluff to be honest, a captain is the best amongst the best of humanity.

A marine goes from scout to dev to assault to tactical then onwards through the ranks, surely if I want to take a 10th company captain (so a Marine who has returned to the scouts, think Cyrus in DOWII) in scout armour I should be able to.

I would love to be able to build a devastator captain, buffs the ranged units around him and can wield a Heavy Bolter, I don't play for assault, it doesn't fit my army or my fluff and it irritates me I can't put heavy weaponry on a Capt.

Imagine being able to put the points investment into - BS, heavy weapons, buffs for devastators and then put him into a Dev squad...
Or attach a captain to a scout squad who buffs them and wears scout armour and can ride in a Storm with them...
etc etc.

I keep meaning to sit down and write a full house rule setup for it to play and see if it works.

In 4th your whole army could use your captain’s Ld. Was a nice boost. I think 4th was still on the tiered commander scale, I know 3rd was. There was no difference between captains and chapter masters, just different levels of “commanders"

although building them from the ground up is cool, I just think a selectable buff a-la councilor centurion would be cool. buffing BS skill by 1, adding line of sight help to barrage, making one of his allies be able to buff a unit for the situation is awesome. I just want to see if a centurion buff can translate to 40k in a compelling and fluffy way. There are already awesome captain models that are basically useless that would fit so well with these rules and models

If they did what the 30k Legion HQ that is sort of like a captain did that would be amazing and make perfect sense. That's such a well written army list.

This is the kind of thing I would want -


Captain 35pts

WS 4 BS 4 S 4 T 4 W 2 I 4 A 2 LD 10 Save 3+

Wargear -

Power Armour
Bolt Pistol
Boltgun
Chainsword
Frag Grenades
Krak Grenades

Special rules -

ATSKNF
Independent Character
Chapter Tactics
Access to Stable weaponry, as a Captain these brothers have access to the limited artificer quality plasma weaponry available, these weapons do not get hot.

Specialisation (Maximum of one)

Captain of the tenth company (+15pts) -

WS 5 BS 5 S 4 T 4 W 3 I 5 A 3 LD 10 Save 4+

Wargear -
Scout armour
Bolt Pistol
Chainsword
Melta Bombs

Special Rules

ATSKNF
Independent Character
Chapter Tactics
Scout
Infiltrate
Danger Close (when within 12 inches of a unit hit by a barrage weapon the weapon does not scatter)

Wargear upgrades -

Can replace Bolt pistol with -

Grav pistol +10
Stable Plasma Pistol +10

Can replace Bolter with -

Shotgun - Free
Sniper Rifle +5
Flamer +10

Can replace Chainsword with -

Powerfist +20
Power weapon +15


Captain of the Devastators (+25pts)

WS 4 BS 6 S 4 T 4 W 2 I 4 A 2 LD 10 Save 3+

Wargear -

Power Armour
Bolt Pistol
Heavy Bolter
Frag Grenades
Krak Grenades
Target Designator (Allows all members of attached squad to shoot at marked target with +1BS)

Special Rules

ATSKNF
Independent Character
Chapter Tactics
Relentless

Wargear upgrades -

Artificer Armour +20

Can replace Heavy Bolter with -

Lascannon +20
Missile Launcher +15
Multi Melta +10
Stable Plasma Cannon +15

Captain of the Tactical Marines (+25pts)

WS 4 BS 5 S 4 T 4 W 3 I 4 A 2 LD 10 Save 3+

Wargear -

Power Armour
Bolt Pistol
Heavy Bolter
Frag Grenades
Krak Grenades
Special Issue Ammunition

Special Rules

ATSKNF
Independent Character
Chapter Tactics
Bolter Drill (like the Imp Fists tactics, it allows them to re-roll 1's on bolt weapons)

Wargear upgrades -

Can replace Bolter with -

Flamer +5
Combi Weapon +20
Stable Plasma Gun +15
Meltagun +10

Captain of the first Company (+50pts)

WS 6 BS 5 S 4 T 4 W 3 I 5 A 3 LD 10 Save 2+

Wargear -

Terminator Armour
Storm Bolter
Power Weapon

Special Rules

ATSKNF
Independent Character
Chapter Tactics
Deep Strike
Ancient Teleporter (Captain and any attached unit can re-roll scatter for deep strike)

Wargear Options -

May take 2 Lightening Claws +Free
May Take Hammer and Storm Shield +10
Assault Cannon +20
Heavy Flamer +10
Cyclone Missile Launcher +25
Chainfist +5

This issue has persisted since 4th edition, and certainly in 5th when Chapter Masters also sucked and the only way to field a Space Marine HQ was to either take a Biker Captain and a Biker army, or a Libby/Chaplain or an SC. Killed my interest once I realized that.

In terms of why they haven't been made better, probably for three reasons:

1) Cruddace didn't have the balls to make a radical change to them (though the CM buff was fairly radical, to his credit)

2) GW has outlined him a pure combat character, with Chaplains, Libbies and MoTF's as support characters. Unfortunately 2 of those 3 suck beyond repair anyway

3) "Inspiring leadership/tactics" is very, very rarely portrayed in the game rules. Autarchs have the reserve modifier and Company Commanders have orders, but that's about it. GW is timid with giving Captains such rules even if they were to consider it because they probably see them as already being very powerful, which is complete bollocks.

I like the idea you have throwoff, quite a bit! good work =D

@ MrOmega yea, your incredibly right. The leaders of armies should be the best. I really just think the bloke who is writing horus heresy should step up to 40k. I would love better captains so much!

When compared to a tau commander the space marine captain looks like a waste of paper. Im not trying to seem like a whiney bloke, but they could make commanders balanced and cool! I seriously want to lift Vigilators and Signal masters into 40k.

I almost want to go 30k because of this reason. petty I know but still!

Captains are actually pretty usable. I regularly use one for cutting costs a little. I field him with a thunder hammer and usually the shield eternal, and he is effective, but not as expansive as a chapter master with a similar loadout. In very large games I sometimes have both a chapter master and a captain, but at such a point level I have already stopped worrying about effectiveness.
I would love it though if captains would get special abillities like the Master of Signals from 30k.

I agree, I'd love to have special rules that made captains feel like more meaningful choices than "mandatory expensive beatstick" but I guess we can't have everything. Tiny rules differences for their titles (Master of the Fleet, Master of the Arsenal, etc.) would've been cool...dare you face my CHIEF VICTUALLER?!

I play Genesis Marines (Ultra Marines) I like to throw a captain on a bike and put him with a bike unit to make it scoring. I have gravs in the unit so I give him a combi grav. He has been pretty effective for me in that capacity.

Now what if that captain gave your army something more? say a master executioner captain that can grant Monster hunter or furious charge or maybe shred to one unit to represent how much of a veteran he is? wouldn't that be awesome?

Lets say you dont want to spend 200+ points on a single model for hq?

Captain is for you.

Nkt every army needs a massive solo character and that is where the captain fits in.

thing about captains is they're basicly a "discount chapter master" thats how you should look at em. they're the option you take when you want a chapter master, but it's a smaller scale game and your points are tight.

Why should a hero of the bloody space marines be ever seen as a "discount" anything? thats not the bloody point the fething point is that BOTH Chapter Master and Captains should do more. These are the best in the chapter of super human warriors. Should each one have a few extra rules to set each rank apart?


NOPE all vanilla captain characters besides the ones GW shows can do NOTHING but wave shiny sticks around. No leading, no extra rules or buffs that can help anything. just "melee only done lol"

 throwoff wrote:
This is the kind of thing I would want -

Spoiler:

Captain 35pts

WS 4 BS 4 S 4 T 4 W 2 I 4 A 2 LD 10 Save 3+

Wargear -

Power Armour
Bolt Pistol
Boltgun
Chainsword
Frag Grenades
Krak Grenades

Special rules -

ATSKNF
Independent Character
Chapter Tactics
Access to Stable weaponry, as a Captain these brothers have access to the limited artificer quality plasma weaponry available, these weapons do not get hot.

Specialisation (Maximum of one)

Captain of the tenth company (+15pts) -

WS 5 BS 5 S 4 T 4 W 3 I 5 A 3 LD 10 Save 4+

Wargear -
Scout armour
Bolt Pistol
Chainsword
Melta Bombs

Special Rules

ATSKNF
Independent Character
Chapter Tactics
Scout
Infiltrate
Danger Close (when within 12 inches of a unit hit by a barrage weapon the weapon does not scatter)

Wargear upgrades -

Can replace Bolt pistol with -

Grav pistol +10
Stable Plasma Pistol +10

Can replace Bolter with -

Shotgun - Free
Sniper Rifle +5
Flamer +10

Can replace Chainsword with -

Powerfist +20
Power weapon +15


Captain of the Devastators (+25pts)

WS 4 BS 6 S 4 T 4 W 2 I 4 A 2 LD 10 Save 3+

Wargear -

Power Armour
Bolt Pistol
Heavy Bolter
Frag Grenades
Krak Grenades
Target Designator (Allows all members of attached squad to shoot at marked target with +1BS)

Special Rules

ATSKNF
Independent Character
Chapter Tactics
Relentless

Wargear upgrades -

Artificer Armour +20

Can replace Heavy Bolter with -

Lascannon +20
Missile Launcher +15
Multi Melta +10
Stable Plasma Cannon +15

Captain of the Tactical Marines (+25pts)

WS 4 BS 5 S 4 T 4 W 3 I 4 A 2 LD 10 Save 3+

Wargear -

Power Armour
Bolt Pistol
Heavy Bolter
Frag Grenades
Krak Grenades
Special Issue Ammunition

Special Rules

ATSKNF
Independent Character
Chapter Tactics
Bolter Drill (like the Imp Fists tactics, it allows them to re-roll 1's on bolt weapons)

Wargear upgrades -

Can replace Bolter with -

Flamer +5
Combi Weapon +20
Stable Plasma Gun +15
Meltagun +10

Captain of the first Company (+50pts)

WS 6 BS 5 S 4 T 4 W 3 I 5 A 3 LD 10 Save 2+

Wargear -

Terminator Armour
Storm Bolter
Power Weapon

Special Rules

ATSKNF
Independent Character
Chapter Tactics
Deep Strike
Ancient Teleporter (Captain and any attached unit can re-roll scatter for deep strike)

Wargear Options -

May take 2 Lightening Claws +Free
May Take Hammer and Storm Shield +10
Assault Cannon +20
Heavy Flamer +10
Cyclone Missile Launcher +25
Chainfist +5

Gotta say, I love this. I approximate a devastator captain with a tricked out Raukaan MOTF with a conversion beamer - but I'd love to have a 3 wound character with a plasma cannon. Man, that'd be awesome.

All they needed to do was give captains and masters different abilities. Since they're the +1/-1 versions of each other it's just redundant now. If they had given the captain an ability to boost the squad he's in (say +1 BS, +1 WS, or relentless, but can only use each boost once.... or anything along those lines), we'd use them again.

But, as we've seen all 6th edition, creativity just hasn't been the hallmark of these codices. DA and Tau were the only well thought out and innovative codices. With DA bring screwed by every release after CSM and Tau being eclipsed by shortsighted power creep in the "easy button Eldar" 'dex.

What they should have always done is have Captains and Chapter Masters have some passive buffing of the army.

Something like Grand Strategy that GK Grand Masters have.

Captains could choose one unit in the army to gain one of a list of special rules and any unit he joins would also gain the rule. Chapter Master could give the rule to D3+1 units in the army.

Master Tactician:

Captains and Chapter Masters are peerless leaders of men and fearsome warriors, able to simultaneously direct his brothers to victory while also personally bringing death to the enemy.

In an army which includes a Captain, the Captain and one friendly non-vehicle unit from the same codex gain a special rule from the following list. In an army which includes a Chapter Master, the Chapter Master and D3 friendly non-vehicle units from the same codex gain a special rule from the following list.

Stealth
Infiltrate
Scouts
Furious Charge
Hit-and-run
Crusader
Outflank


That would give a gradient between Captains and Chapter Masters while ensuring they are still the same type of character. It would also make them competitive with Librarians and Chaplains who are the only ones who actually do any buffing.

Better basic gear would help too.

I sometimes use the cheapest captain I can when squeezing in an allied space marine force.
That's about the only use I've found for them.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
When compared to a tau commander the space marine captain looks like a waste of paper. Im not trying to seem like a whiney bloke, but they could make commanders balanced and cool! I seriously want to lift Vigilators and Signal masters into 40k.

*Reads the "Are Tau OP?" thread, where the buffmander and the ability to "dole out special rules like candy" is mentioned by what I presume to be mostly Space Marine players as one of the main reasons why Tau are overpowered.*

*Then reads this thread where people are proposing that Space Marine captains/chapter masters not only get the same ability, but better, affecting more than just a single unit at a time and possibly even being army-wide buffs, claiming that it would be both balanced and cool.*

(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

...in case that doesn't show up properly, it's supposed to be the "table flip emoticon"...