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Hi guys, not sure if this has been asked before, but me and my friend were just reading over the rules, and it is our understanding that technically a squad of Chaos Terminators in a Land Raider would be able to Infiltrate. Our thought process is as follows:

1) Master of Deception grants D3 units of Infantry the Infiltrate special rule.

2) Chaos Terminators are Infantry, and therefore can be granted Infiltrate

3) The Infiltrate special rule states that Dedicated Transports can also infiltrate with their unit

4) Chaos Terminators can take a Land Raider as a Dedicated Transport

5) Ergo, a squad of Chaos Terminators in a Land Raider can Infiltrate

This sounds quite odd really, so just wanted some second opinions from you guys!

Cheers!

Your interpretation is correct.

Keep in mind that any unit which has infiltrated can not Assault the first turn, Assault Vehicle or not.

First player turn, so if you go second you can assault.

Thanks for the replies guys!

Do any of you have any experience of this tactic and its effectiveness? Not just limited to Chaos Marines but for any races that can pull this off?

I would say it is devastating even though I have no experience with it;
The single turn an opponent has to try and counter the Assault is unlikely to be successful, they would need to take out the vehicle to prevent it moving into guaranteed assault range.

Alone, the tank will be melta'd / assaulted and killed, and five termies will struggle to survive against that much close range fire power. It is getting in for a third of your army as well...

I am not sure about that Nosferatu1001,
The Land Raider owning player gets to decide the position, and is unlikely to stick the thing close enough to melta's or monstrous Creatures for them to be much of a threat to the thing. Standard, and longer ranged, anti-tank weapons are required to be strength 9 or 10 in order to have a chance at a penetration and even a 10 has as low as 33% of doing so. Glances would be possible, but anything under 8 has a 0% chance of that and the additional Hull Points have to be taken into consideration in those cases which makes it even more unlikely for it to be removed in turn 1.

I can only conclude that it would be pure luck to destroy the vehicle on turn 1, and as a Jinx I know how unreliable that is for any long term battle plans, but the look on your opponents face if you took that for first blood would be priceless....

JinxDragon wrote:
I am not sure about that Nosferatu1001,
The Land Raider owning player gets to decide the position, and is unlikely to stick the thing close enough to melta's or monstrous Creatures for them to be much of a threat to the thing. Standard, and longer ranged, anti-tank weapons are required to be strength 9 or 10 in order to have a chance at a penetration and even a 10 has as low as 33% of doing so. Glances would be possible, but anything under 8 has a 0% chance of that and the additional Hull Points have to be taken into consideration in those cases which makes it even more unlikely for it to be removed in turn 1.

I can only conclude that it would be pure luck to destroy the vehicle on turn 1, and as a Jinx I know how unreliable that is for any long term battle plans, but the look on your opponents face if you took that for first blood would be priceless....

My army consists of quite a few Bright Lances. Land Raiders do not scare me.

Longstriker deals with them for me:
83.5% Hit Rate, 33% penetration with Re-rolling, 50% explode result... but not all armies have the universe's best tank-ace within them.

JinxDragon wrote:
Longstriker deals with them for me:
83.5% Hit Rate, 33% penetration with Re-rolling, 50% explode result... but not all armies have the universe's best tank-ace within them.

You mean Pask?

Longstriker would one shot Pask as well;
We all know that crusty old human just wishes he had a Hammerhead Tank!

I'd still disagree. You know it's coming. Meaning you make the targets it wants to go after tough to go near without the tank dying. It can function to pen them in a little, but without something else fast as a threat, you won't overwhelm them. It's an expensive way to deliver a fast threat

 Happyjew wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
I am not sure about that Nosferatu1001,
The Land Raider owning player gets to decide the position, and is unlikely to stick the thing close enough to melta's or monstrous Creatures for them to be much of a threat to the thing. Standard, and longer ranged, anti-tank weapons are required to be strength 9 or 10 in order to have a chance at a penetration and even a 10 has as low as 33% of doing so. Glances would be possible, but anything under 8 has a 0% chance of that and the additional Hull Points have to be taken into consideration in those cases which makes it even more unlikely for it to be removed in turn 1.

I can only conclude that it would be pure luck to destroy the vehicle on turn 1, and as a Jinx I know how unreliable that is for any long term battle plans, but the look on your opponents face if you took that for first blood would be priceless....

My army consists of quite a few Bright Lances. Land Raiders do not scare me.

Statistically you need about 14 to get the kill shot... Most eldar don't pack that many... Dark eldar on the other hand...

 Massaen wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
I am not sure about that Nosferatu1001,
The Land Raider owning player gets to decide the position, and is unlikely to stick the thing close enough to melta's or monstrous Creatures for them to be much of a threat to the thing. Standard, and longer ranged, anti-tank weapons are required to be strength 9 or 10 in order to have a chance at a penetration and even a 10 has as low as 33% of doing so. Glances would be possible, but anything under 8 has a 0% chance of that and the additional Hull Points have to be taken into consideration in those cases which makes it even more unlikely for it to be removed in turn 1.

I can only conclude that it would be pure luck to destroy the vehicle on turn 1, and as a Jinx I know how unreliable that is for any long term battle plans, but the look on your opponents face if you took that for first blood would be priceless....

My army consists of quite a few Bright Lances. Land Raiders do not scare me.

Statistically you need about 14 to get the kill shot... Most eldar don't pack that many... Dark eldar on the other hand...

Actually 12. 12 shots, 8 hit, 4 will at least glance. 4 HPs gone.

The effectiveness of this will depend on your opponents army and how good a player they are. Tau will struggle to kill that LR as their only effective anti-AV14 is melta. Longstrike has a 20.83% chance to kill it and a 27.778% chance to immobilise or better so he really is not an effective tool for the job at all.

Necrons will quite likely laugh at it. Bike armies will kill it and everything inside it turn 1 (Ravenwing load up on Melta, Scars are all grav). But against mediocre players this tactic is very effective and against certain armies it will cause them a problem. Try it out and see how you go. Personally if using this tactic I'd ensure I had lots of other fast threats too like allied Khorne Dogs, Possessed, Spawn and Maulerfiends to put pressure on at the same time.

@happyjew... Haha! Forgot about HP... My bad... 5th ed habits die hard

FlingitNow:
Every standard Heavy Slot choice for the Tau Army brings a weapon that is threatening to a Land Raider, ranging from Strength 10 rail guns to a volley of Strength 8 Seeker Missiles to strength 8 Heavy Rail Rifles. It is dead simple to get Tank hunter into a team of broadsides, given that the PureTide chip thingy is a must for any 'buff commander,' and they even have a datasheet dedicated to anti-tank Broadsides. A datasheet which grants all models on said sheet tank hunter, including a Riptide which is able to smash hit a Land Raider. The only way a Tau army will struggle if they have gone for an Elite heavy list and even that list has an ace in it's sleeve: All default elite choices can jet-pack 6 inches regardless of terrain and then thrust move the same random distance as a charge. They effectively dance around Terminators....

That ~ 20-30% chance to cripple it is from a single shot from a single source, not something I would dismiss easily... now if only I could find some way to give him a quad-railgun or something.

Jinx not wishing to turn this into a Tau tactics thread. But the HS taken by Tau players at the top end are Broadsides and Skyrays. Neither is a great choice against Landraiders. Broadsides are S7 always and it is not a good use of seekers. Riptides smashing a Landraider is a suicide mission. Longstrike is about 190ish points dependant exact equipement for as stated around a 21% chance to kill an AV14 and that can't really be improved by MLs. Compare to 114 points of double fusion (and flamer) crisis with a couple of ML hits where its 24% per shot with 4 shots even without MLs that 114 unit has a 54% chance. That's potentially a troops choice or an Elite or for 134pts a free HQ slot rather than a valuable HS slot that could be Broadsides or Skyrays.

As I said it depends on the army and the level you play at. In a competitive environment you can afford to use Longstrike at all let alone as anti-AV14 as he's simply not remotely efficient at that job.

You do make a good point about not turning this into a Tactics thread. I started with some light heartened humor related to Longstriker one shooting the thing but for some reason let it get a little bit too serious, all over stupid things such as "probability" and "numbers" which is something a Jinx can never count on in the best of situations. I still feel you are not giving the situation due consideration, for example you seem willing to use marker-lights to fudge the numbers for the crisis suits but do not allow them into your consideration for the hammerhead, but that doesn't matter at this point because we are faaaaar off topic that we might as well be in another forum on this site entirely. I will just like to close by stating that the Tau Empire, an army well known for having access to high strength weapons in nearly every Force Organization Slot, is the least likely to be worried by this tactic.

I do have to point you towards the Heavy Rail Rifle profile again, it should be Strength 8 unless my memory has really shot itself with one.
High Yield Missile Pods should be Strength 7, and often seen because they have many more times the shots and Strength 8 is not much better then 7 in most cases... one exception being against AV-14.

Pretty sure he didn't mean that the HRR doesn't exist, but rather that in competitive play it simply isn't used. 4xS7 vs. 1XS8 at the same points is difficult to justify, even when you go from AP4 to AP1.