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I've been hearing rumors of an announcement from GW, in terms of production, new casting methods. Some people are mentioning it's an announcement of the official merger between GW and FW.

My FLGS received one of the limited edition Void Shield pieces. I was surprised that it was a resin cast. But mostly surprised when he mentioned it was made in China.

Could this be a test run of a new production technique where they're going to be casting out of china?

Makes sense to me, bring production cost down but still charge over bloated prices.

Any one else have an opinion.

If they move FW casting to China it could be a way to keep from needing to push those prices up further (as FW stuff is generally cheaper than a lot of other goods for countries outside of the UK and the US).

That's just speculation though.

Prices would drop too .

Didn't FW outsource casting to China before for a brief time? Prices didn't drop then.

I don't think prices would drop (menu pricing pretty much prevents that for all companies unless they have too, or they're so massive they can get away with that kind of thing (ex. Walmart)), just not have to go up.

They still might, but we'd have to wait and see how it plays out I guess.

 Sidstyler wrote:
Didn't FW outsource casting to China before for a brief time? Prices didn't drop then.

Yeah, and it lasted for something like three months because molds kept "disappearing".

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:
Didn't FW outsource casting to China before for a brief time? Prices didn't drop then.

Yeah, and it lasted for something like three months because molds kept "disappearing".

One of the biggest risks you run by making stuff in China is basically giving the bootleggers everything they need to knock off your product.

Makumba wrote:
Prices would drop too .

You must be new around here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:
Didn't FW outsource casting to China before for a brief time? Prices didn't drop then.

Yeah, and it lasted for something like three months because molds kept "disappearing".

One of the biggest risks you run by making stuff in China is basically giving the bootleggers everything they need to knock off your product.

What isn't bootlegged already? Might as well get more cash in the legal market. People like DreamForge and Wargames Factory are already putting out a superior product to GWs and at a fraction of the retail price.

If they are actually made in china, then you can expect a Chinese website selling the same thing in about 10 minutes.

I've always understood that GW doesn't outsource to china because they know it would just create a series of knockoffs made from official cast and devalue their product to nothing.

Hell, there is already a Chinese source for Tyranids that I am almost certain is made using official cast or at least copies of them. A guy in my group bought about 230 models from them (the smaller guys that you can spawn etc.) and the quality was shockingly good.

 Lobukia wrote:
What isn't bootlegged already?

Not producing stuff in China does slow things down a little. Granted they still win in the end, but there are other factors (like quality control) that are a bigger pain when your production facility is in another country.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
What isn't bootlegged already?

Not producing stuff in China does slow things down a little. Granted they still win in the end, but there are other factors (like quality control) that are a bigger pain when your production facility is in another country.

My company won't produce there, even if you put an office of your guys over there to babysit them, they have no imagination, no concept of QC, the list goes on and on. TBH, a lot of companies are discovering that the supposed "savings" associated with Chinese production over the last 10-15 years turned out to not outweigh the loss in revenue associated with IP theft, production/shipping issues, and just general incompetence. Then again, a lot of people just started moving their factories to Bangladesh, so I guess in the end, no one learned a damn thing.

"Well it didn't work the first six times so let's do it twelve more times!"

Mercury and yamaha make a lot of their motors in asian countries and they make a killing. All they need is someone to live there and watch the easily replaceable workers. Their motors arent cheaper just lighter now. And the guy who watches them lives in luxury.

Most of the models GW has have been purchased by re sellers and then a mold is made from them. There is nothing they can do to stop re-casters. Moving to china wont make a difference.

Eh, but toy companies have a harder time with this kind of thing. I mean if Hasbro, one of the biggest toy companies period, can't curb the bootlegging then I don't think GW has a chance.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Eh, but toy companies have a harder time with this kind of thing. I mean if Hasbro, one of the biggest toy companies period, can't curb the bootlegging then I don't think GW has a chance.

Yea GW can in no way stop recasting with china existing haha. They just buy the model and copy it. They sell 3 models and bam they start making profit. Easy for them. So moving to china does nothing because Chinese still have to buy from GW to get the copes (or another store).

It will be cheaper for GW but it wont change what we pay.

Well its actually westerners making the models, selling it to chinese who sell it to us.

Moving to China means instead of buying copies the molds "disappear", like last time they tried it. Which means GW doesn't even get the sale on the box of stuff that gets the recast treatment.

Doesnt matter. The recasts are pretty much the same quality. It wont make a difference. Moving to china will benefit them more than staying away.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Doesnt matter. The recasts are pretty much the same quality. It wont make a difference. Moving to china will benefit them more than staying away.

Yes because the PR of laying off a whole bunch of British employees to move to China will do them well when they're already showing signs of financial troubles right now.

If they were doing strong I'd agree, but in a gakky economy with the company showing a substantial dip during the busiest part of their sales year I'd say "not right now". I don't think they have the ability to take that kind of bad press on the chin right now.

True, but a lot of companies are doing it. But if I went around gamers asking how they feel about it most will ask will it make it cheaper. I dont think people will be concerned.

And a lot of companies are moving back out of China for a whole plethora of reasons.

Frankly it adds costs to their supply chain (like QC issues which means more freebies to cover costs), it won't make things cheaper for the consumer, and it increases how fast their stuff gets janked (if they produce in China, China can have their models out MONTHS in advance of the actual release of the product).

It doesn't really seem like an idea that's good for GW in the long run, or even the short run.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
And a lot of companies are moving back out of China for a whole plethora of reasons.

Frankly it adds costs to their supply chain (like QC issues which means more freebies to cover costs), it won't make things cheaper for the consumer, and it increases how fast their stuff gets janked (if they produce in China, China can have their models out MONTHS in advance of the actual release of the product).

It doesn't really seem like an idea that's good for GW in the long run, or even the short run.

China doesnt mean bad product? Marine motors are better than ever. The USA ones are heavy, expensive and have higher production cost. Light Weights are amazing. In my fields of work china is the place to go. Quality is not sacrificed and whats the difference between shipping from britain and shipping from china?

Also because china is developing any factory there is more advanced than a factory in a place like america (for example). It gets to the point where upgrading is more expensive then starting fresh. Hence why china is the place to go right now. Cheap labor. Same output. Same materials. More money to improve.

In my experience chinese products are the thing to get. I dont work in the models industry but certainly in the other industries its the best way to go.

China is rather famous for not giving half a squat about QC and you really have to watch like a hawk with somethings. And if there is any problem you basically need to stick someone on a plane to go deal with it.

Shipping from China also brings with it different import laws. Did you know that Congress is regularly looking at increasing the cost of Chinese import goods in the US? So if GW goes with China I may face higher prices while they save more money.

And no, Chinese labor is not a guaranteed improvement for any market over domestic labor. Both have advantages and disadvantages and in the end I see more disadvantages for GW than advantages.

At least right now.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
China is rather famous for not giving half a squat about QC and you really have to watch like a hawk with somethings. And if there is any problem you basically need to stick someone on a plane to go deal with it.

Shipping from China also brings with it different import laws. Did you know that Congress is regularly looking at increasing the cost of Chinese import goods in the US? So if GW goes with China I may face higher prices while they save more money.

And no, Chinese labor is not a guaranteed improvement for any market over domestic labor. Both have advantages and disadvantages and in the end I see more disadvantages for GW than advantages.

At least right now.

Do you work or do deals with companies who work in china? They have westerners living there to make sure it goes well and so on.

It just seems you arent hearing the things I am hearing...

Most of what the workers do there is lifting and packaging. Westerners do the repairing of machines and records along with administration. The reason the US is gonna try make it harder to ship from there (for them) is probably because of the amount of businesses moving there.

Heck if things continue as they are ill be starting some stuff in china. Its a gold mine there.

There are consquences yes, but I personally think that the benefits outweigh the cons.

While I do sympathize for all the workers who probably will lose their jobs if this happens, sympathy doesn't make money. Financially its the best thing to do.

The problem with everybody moving production to china is closure of factorys in the west then who are you going to sell the products to as everybody here is unemployed what bankers.
we keep getting told big business needs less taxes & regulations as they are jobcreators but all the jobs are shipped to china india etc

 dekinrie wrote:
The problem with everybody moving production to china is closure of factorys in the west then who are you going to sell the products to as everybody here is unemployed what bankers.
we keep getting told big business needs less taxes & regulations as they are jobcreators but all the jobs are shipped to china india etc

Part of capitalism unfortunately. Soon they will be buying their products. Also why should we have jobs over them?

Makumba wrote:
Prices would drop too .

no they won't. stop pretending they will. this is not a commodity, it is a luxury.

I cannot comment on how things are produced in China but I can talk about the quality of things that I have dealt with that came from China. Chinese Steel is crap. They have NO QC in place and the steel is so bad that it has to be replaced early.

The average lifespan of a bridge where I live is about 10 to 12 years, then you have to go through and replace the concrete deck and put new Nelson studs into the girders. 6 years ago they started using Chinese steel for the girders. Now the state has to come up with more money faster than they anticipated because these bridges are failing prematurely. Normally it is 30 years or so that you have to go in and replace bridge girders or in some cases even longer, not so with the steel from China, I am going in and replacing girders that I actually helped set 5 or 6 years ago. Stress cracks and actual breaks that should not be on 1" steel of this age just friggin floors me.

No, Chinese production is not high quality. You get what you pay for, pay for cheap and you get cheap.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
China is rather famous for not giving half a squat about QC and you really have to watch like a hawk with somethings. And if there is any problem you basically need to stick someone on a plane to go deal with it.

Shipping from China also brings with it different import laws. Did you know that Congress is regularly looking at increasing the cost of Chinese import goods in the US? So if GW goes with China I may face higher prices while they save more money.

And no, Chinese labor is not a guaranteed improvement for any market over domestic labor. Both have advantages and disadvantages and in the end I see more disadvantages for GW than advantages.

At least right now.

Do you work or do deals with companies who work in china? They have westerners living there to make sure it goes well and so on.

It just seems you arent hearing the things I am hearing...

Most of what the workers do there is lifting and packaging. Westerners do the repairing of machines and records along with administration. The reason the US is gonna try make it harder to ship from there (for them) is probably because of the amount of businesses moving there.

Heck if things continue as they are ill be starting some stuff in china. Its a gold mine there.

There are consquences yes, but I personally think that the benefits outweigh the cons.

While I do sympathize for all the workers who probably will lose their jobs if this happens, sympathy doesn't make money. Financially its the best thing to do.

I'm a manufacturing engineer. I'm hearing things from the vendors who are working in China, guys I've known and worked with for years- you know, those guys living in luxury? You are essentially flat wrong in your view here.

QC is appalling. The reason Westerners are frequently flown in to babysit is that not only will the job be done wrong, but they'll lie about having done it wrong. Maintenance on tools is a joke- state subsidies in many industries leads to a "buy new" model instead of fixing things. Lifting and packaging? You apparently know nothing about the reality of manufacture- our fab is nearly entirely automated, and it takes constant alert maintenance to keep running with good product. It's not worthwhile unless you are Chinese.
Thailand, though, sounds like a bit of a different story. Hearing good things about Thailand from a manufacturing perspective. Malaysia has nearly the same professional sh*t reputation as China. India is a mixed bag- seems to be where you're located. Bangladesh is stupid due to the flooding problem, but businessmen aren't up on science.

That said, you can get good product out of China- but not reliably. It's a yield issue. Each unit may cost 50% less to produce, but 60% of units failing means you're losing money on each unit that works. Performance also matters, depending on your product.

The biggest issue, though, isn't QC- it's a well-known phenomenon that many Chinese knockoffs, especially when you include what they sell internally, aren't knockoffs- they're the same product run on the same molds with the same tooling by the same employees but not on the company's dime. Essentially, Company A runs 3 shifts, but the actual factory runs 4- and the 4th is being sold as bootlegs by the workers, with Company A paying the power bills and material costs. It's a horrid toxic climate for actual manufacturing.

Hmmm, very conflicting. I may have to ask a bit more about the subject... I have been misinformed. Maybe.

The recaster I spoke to has to buy the new models and make casts from it. Which are identical. There arent many people making the casts, but they supply almost all the sellers. For example only one person makes a Revenant titan recast in the whole world. Any one selling one has to get it from that guy. They dont use company molds (well I wont say that with 100% certainty) but they certainly buy models then make molds from them. Which takes a fair bit of time apparently.

BrainFireBob wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
China is rather famous for not giving half a squat about QC and you really have to watch like a hawk with somethings. And if there is any problem you basically need to stick someone on a plane to go deal with it.

Shipping from China also brings with it different import laws. Did you know that Congress is regularly looking at increasing the cost of Chinese import goods in the US? So if GW goes with China I may face higher prices while they save more money.

And no, Chinese labor is not a guaranteed improvement for any market over domestic labor. Both have advantages and disadvantages and in the end I see more disadvantages for GW than advantages.

At least right now.

Do you work or do deals with companies who work in china? They have westerners living there to make sure it goes well and so on.

It just seems you arent hearing the things I am hearing...

Most of what the workers do there is lifting and packaging. Westerners do the repairing of machines and records along with administration. The reason the US is gonna try make it harder to ship from there (for them) is probably because of the amount of businesses moving there.

Heck if things continue as they are ill be starting some stuff in china. Its a gold mine there.

There are consquences yes, but I personally think that the benefits outweigh the cons.

While I do sympathize for all the workers who probably will lose their jobs if this happens, sympathy doesn't make money. Financially its the best thing to do.

I'm a manufacturing engineer. I'm hearing things from the vendors who are working in China, guys I've known and worked with for years- you know, those guys living in luxury? You are essentially flat wrong in your view here.

QC is appalling. The reason Westerners are frequently flown in to babysit is that not only will the job be done wrong, but they'll lie about having done it wrong. Maintenance on tools is a joke- state subsidies in many industries leads to a "buy new" model instead of fixing things. Lifting and packaging? You apparently know nothing about the reality of manufacture- our fab is nearly entirely automated, and it takes constant alert maintenance to keep running with good product. It's not worthwhile unless you are Chinese.
Thailand, though, sounds like a bit of a different story. Hearing good things about Thailand from a manufacturing perspective. Malaysia has nearly the same professional sh*t reputation as China. India is a mixed bag- seems to be where you're located. Bangladesh is stupid due to the flooding problem, but businessmen aren't up on science.

That said, you can get good product out of China- but not reliably. It's a yield issue. Each unit may cost 50% less to produce, but 60% of units failing means you're losing money on each unit that works. Performance also matters, depending on your product.

The biggest issue, though, isn't QC- it's a well-known phenomenon that many Chinese knockoffs, especially when you include what they sell internally, aren't knockoffs- they're the same product run on the same molds with the same tooling by the same employees but not on the company's dime. Essentially, Company A runs 3 shifts, but the actual factory runs 4- and the 4th is being sold as bootlegs by the workers, with Company A paying the power bills and material costs. It's a horrid toxic climate for actual manufacturing.

Offtopic but with your experience in mind, should I be worried about kickstarters that are made in china?