Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

As far as artifacts are concerned, what is considered an acceptable level of strength before you start adding drawbacks?

I'm playing around with Rogue Space Marines as part of my Rogue Trader Compilation THING and have begun creating some artifacts, alongside being able to take a few Rogue specific artifacts, would it be absurd for there to be a model that could draw artifacts from multiple codexes/ codex supplements?

This isn't an attempt to create an ultimate generic deathstar unit so much as it is a way to represent outcasts and looters.

In MY mind, a Chapter of Operators (Alpha Legion Cough cough) would be more than capable of stealing artifacts (Blood Ravens Cough cough) and using them.

Outcasts themselves could possibly leave with their Chapters Relics.

I'm also messing around with Codexes based on specific theaters of war, armies that lack legitimate fast attack options in favor of automated sentries being dropped from orbit for example.
Lets say taking Sentry Turrets and Turret Emplacements instead of Assault marines, things of that nature.

What I have started to make is a footslogging/Fortification Oriented Legion.

The Blade of Severance………………………………………………………………………………………………….….. 30 Points
Range Str ap
- User - Melee, Severance, Bonds Best Burned
An Archeotech Blade once used to seal Blood Pacts between Bother Astartes, it sees a new use by severing bonds permanently.
(This Weapon doesn't replace any existing wargear, even if you already have two weapons.)

Severance: This Weapon Confers the Strike Down and Concussive special rules and Grants +1 Attack.
Bonds Best Burned: An Army containing a model with this Special Rule may never take any Allies, in addition to never being able to take allies, an army containing a model with this special rule may not take any unique detachments (Inquisition, Tempestus Scions, Knights ect.)

The Tyrant’s Grip………………………………………….........…………………………………………………………… 40 Points
(This Weapon Replaces an existing weapon equipped to the model taking it.)
Range S AP Type
- X2 2 Melee, Unwieldy, Specialist Weapon, An Iron Grip

An Ancient Power Fist, said to have been wielded by the Primarch of the Legion that was the Progenitor of the Astral Claws, this weapon bestows upon its user the vitality necessary to Rule and the Violence necessary to Seize the enemy by the throat and crush them.

An Iron Grip: A Model struck by this weapon must take an initiative check, if the target fails, the model until the end of the combat has a penalty to their Weapon Skill , Ballistic Skill and attacks of two. If this model hits a Vehicle, the side struck has its AV value reduced by one for the rest of the game.

The Mantle of Pride………………………………………………………………………………………………………..… 75 Points
This Suit of Armor was discovered deep within the Maelstorm, a strange hybrid of design, it contains the durability and strength enhancing technologies found in the Centurion War Suits fielded by the Legion, While retaining the Size and agility of a suit of Cataphracti Terminator Armor. The original wearer of this armor is unknown, the armor was scorched of all markings save for one, the symbol XI.

This Armor grants a 2+ Armor Save, +1 Strength, +1 Toughness, +1 Wound, Bulky and Slow and Purposeful. This armor also grants the Bonds Best Burned special rule and the Warriors Salute special rule.

Warriors Salute: While in a challenge, a model with this special rule allows his enemy to attack at I10 for the first round of combat, afterwards, attacks are made normally.

 Clefty wrote:
As far as artifacts are concerned, what is considered an acceptable level of strength before you start adding drawbacks?

Look at what already exists. Don't make your stuff more point-efficient than existing stuff (powerful is ok, but it has to be expensive), and don't make amazing god artifacts that go way beyond the power of things that are already described as being the best possible. And if you find yourself having to add on a ton of drawbacks to make your new toy balanced then you're probably going to have an awkward mess that should be scaled down in power and simplified to a more elegant design that captures the most important aspects of the fluff without adding lots of redundant rules.

The Blade of Severance………………………………………………………………………………………………….….. 30 Points

This is garbage. Adding +1 attack with no STR or AP bonus is not even close to worth 30 points, strikedown/concussive are decent USRs but anyone who can justify spending 30 points on a melee weapon is going to take a power weapon and just kill you instead of screwing around trying to weaken an opponent, and the allies penalty is absurd for something that's probably worse than a basic power fist. You could remove the drawback entirely and it would still probably be so weak that nobody would ever even consider using it.

The Tyrant’s Grip………………………………………….........…………………………………………………………… 40 Points

Also garbage. You're paying 40 points for a power fist with two mostly-irrelevant abilities. A stat penalty to non-vehicle models is very limited in value when most non-vehicle models are going to be killed in one hit, and the vehicle penalty is absolutely worthless since it takes pretty bad dice to fail to destroy a vehicle with a power fist character. There are rare situations where the bonuses will be useful, but 40 points worth of useful?

The Mantle of Pride………………………………………………………………………………………………………..… 75 Points

And yep, still garbage. Those bonuses are obviously powerful, but everyone who is going to potentially get a 75-point upgrade already has terminator armor available so you're paying extra points for the +1 stat bonuses. They'd be worth paying points for, but they're of limited value because the character is still vulnerable to most of the same anti-elite-infantry weapons and will often die just as fast as they would without the upgrade. There's no way that's even close to worth giving up your allies, unless you're making this specifically for an army that you're never going to use with allies. And if that's true then you have a case of inventing a "drawback" which isn't actually a drawback so that you can justify more powerful rules.

Also, the challenge rule doesn't make much sense. I can't imagine a marine character just standing there and letting their opponent take a free shot instead of crushing them in a crude display of overwhelming power. It also needs to be replaced by "that opponent strikes at I10" if you want it to function properly without the risk of breaking something in the initiative system.

 Clefty wrote:
As far as artifacts are concerned, what is considered an acceptable level of strength before you start adding drawbacks?

Look at what already exists. Don't make your stuff more point-efficient than existing stuff (powerful is ok, but it has to be expensive), and don't make amazing god artifacts that go way beyond the power of things that are already described as being the best possible. And if you find yourself having to add on a ton of drawbacks to make your new toy balanced then you're probably going to have an awkward mess that should be scaled down in power and simplified to a more elegant design that captures the most important aspects of the fluff without adding lots of redundant rules.

For sure.

This is garbage. Adding +1 attack with no STR or AP bonus is not even close to worth 30 points, strikedown/concussive are decent USRs but anyone who can justify spending 30 points on a melee weapon is going to take a power weapon and just kill you instead of screwing around trying to weaken an opponent, and the allies penalty is absurd for something that's probably worse than a basic power fist. You could remove the drawback entirely and it would still probably be so weak that nobody would ever even consider using it.

It's a combat blade that confers those special rules to other attacks, so if he an HQ takes that blade and a power weapon, the power weapon would utilize the strike down and concussive special rules. IT is a bit of a poor mans method of getting a little extra in combats.

Also garbage. You're paying 40 points for a power fist with two mostly-irrelevant abilities. A stat penalty to non-vehicle models is very limited in value when most non-vehicle models are going to be killed in one hit, and the vehicle penalty is absolutely worthless since it takes pretty bad dice to fail to destroy a vehicle with a power fist character. There are rare situations where the bonuses will be useful, but 40 points worth of useful?

I personally thought this one was pretty balanced, it COULD be amazing against deathstars.

And yep, still garbage. Those bonuses are obviously powerful, but everyone who is going to potentially get a 75-point upgrade already has terminator armor available so you're paying extra points for the +1 stat bonuses. They'd be worth paying points for, but they're of limited value because the character is still vulnerable to most of the same anti-elite-infantry weapons and will often die just as fast as they would without the upgrade. There's no way that's even close to worth giving up your allies, unless you're making this specifically for an army that you're never going to use with allies. And if that's true then you have a case of inventing a "drawback" which isn't actually a drawback so that you can justify more powerful rules.

Also, the challenge rule doesn't make much sense. I can't imagine a marine character just standing there and letting their opponent take a free shot instead of crushing them in a crude display of overwhelming power. It also needs to be replaced by "that opponent strikes at I10" if you want it to function properly without the risk of breaking something in the initiative system.

No, the idea isn't to justify powerful rules. The Challenge Rule has been revised a bit, thanks for the I10 suggestion, thats what I went with.

While I was messing around with my Rogue Trader Lists, I had the idea to represent a rogue marine looting the wargear of fallen heroes he has killed in the past, by being able to select artifacts from MULTIPLE codexes's. This is obviously incredibly powerful, so I began by creating a few limitations to help represent the price of killing figures of renown, no allies or unique detachments.

I ended up with being able to take 0-2 options from Codex:Space Marines and Codex: Chaos Space Marines, alongside 0-1 options from any supplement for those codexes.

Taking an option from those Codexe's or their supplement would also grant the Bonds Best Burned special rule.

You know, you need to add a rule saying that the Mantle of Pride can't be bought with a bike. Otherwise, I will definitely be building my Rukanaan Chapter Master with one for a T6, 2+3++, 5 Wound, anywhere from 3+ to 6+ FNP, IWND monstrosity. Who gets 7 S10 attacks on the charge. At AP2. And I10.

Where do you get the initiative ten from?

The generic character that can access this is Praetor equivalent without the bike or jump pack options.

 Clefty wrote:
Where do you get the initiative ten from?

I suppose that assumes he's in a challenge. So S10 AP2 I1,unless it's a challenge. (As I said before, this is 'On the charge.'

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Clefty wrote:
Where do you get the initiative ten from?

I suppose that assumes he's in a challenge. So S10 AP2 I1,unless it's a challenge. (As I said before, this is 'On the charge.'

The special rule allows the opposition to strike at initiative ten in a challenge for the first round of combat in that challenge

Ah, I misread that. Even so, he's going to be using a Thunder Hammer or Power Fist, most likely. I2 and I10 aren't any different.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Ah, I misread that. Even so, he's going to be using a Thunder Hammer or Power Fist, most likely. I2 and I10 aren't any different.

You are correct.