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It's a setting not a story...

There's a difference between plot and metaplot.

Plot is the advancement of events within a single story.

Metaplot is the advancement of events within the wider setting.

A black library novel is a plot.

40k as a whole is a metaplot.

To use a real world example, World War 2 would be a plot, while history as a whole is the metaplot.

It is in fact, perfectly possible to keep on moving a metaplot. MMOs are a fairly good example of this, with major content updates moving the "present" of the metaplot further and further; killing off once established characters or introducing new ones, forcibly altering old intra-settings (or zones), introducing new plots set in this later date, and so on. This introduces the risk of annoying people as you kill off characters, destroy intra-settings they liked, revealing how once mysterious things work, or otherwise altering the meta-plot.

Going by GW's statements of having no interest in defining canon to the point where anyone's interpretation is as valid as anything in a codex, I doubt GW cares enough to advance the metaplot, and I don't think they have the skill to do it convincingly anyway.

If they did do it, they're quite likely to do it in a way that pisses off a good chunk of the fanbase, confuses another chunk, and appeals to a third one.

Would you really want to Crack open a 7e rulebook and find that in M42; the 13th black crusade was rolled back and Abaddon was killed resulting in the traitor legions collapsing into internal strife from which they will never recover; resulting in all legions fracturing into WARBANZ, the Imperium has reached an accord with the craftworld Eldar and Tau, the Tyranids are now retconned into being a final "feth you" by the Old Ones and are being lead by their last remnants who are actually the Great Old Ones from H.P Lovecraft with barely altered names, the Orks are all violently posh instead of cockney now because the modeler's son thought they'd look cool in top hats, the Dark Eldar are now just sort of Jerkish and their most obscene acts involve kicking you in the shins, Szarekh was the Deceiver all along, and the Squats were never really dead; no really, just read about it in their new codex.

Because that's about the writing quality I expect from them.

The overall setting of the downfall of man is just the backdrop for what is going on - it doesn't need to be advanced. If you take into account just how big the galaxy is ... it's massive...

As Douglas Adams said "Space is big. Really, really, really big."

There is room in the galaxy for millions of other stories that all make up smaller parts of the larger whole. As I said before in this thread, this is the story of the downfall of mankind. What comes after isn't anything good for 1/2 the armies there are codexes for.

And ultimately either the Necrons or Tyranids eat everything (maybe the orks grow like a fungus unchecked). The point is, it doesn't matter. 40k is the tale of heroes making their last stand and the overwhelming villains at the front door.

Do not expect it to advance - you will just be disappointed.

For those saying GW hasn't written anything good - I would completely disagree when it comes to BL and FW additions to the GW line. IA12 is fantastic story telling. (and a great campaign system to boot!)

And comparing how they advanced the D&D Storyline... good lord what a train wreck it was from 1st to 2nd and into 3rd edition for The Forgotten Realms. You got rid of Bane and replaced him with ... Cyric? There was a reason Ed Greenwood (Tokein hack though he may be I loved his world!) bailed on the whole Forgotten Realms thing for so long.

No clue what happened in 4th as I gave up on that edition (after 30+ years of D&D)



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kain wrote:

If they did do it, they're quite likely to do it in a way that pisses off a good chunk of the fanbase, confuses another chunk, and appeals to a third one.

Oh my God this is such a true statement. I can hear the crying now... You think people lament the fate of squats? Imagine how downhill it would go if half the armies are wiped out...

I think a half decent writer with a good handle on the fluff of the 40k universe and a good vision could move the plot along.
Sure, some players will not like the changes, but that's inevitable. There is literally nothing you could do with writing the future that wouldn't anger someone.
I say, make a separate 50k setting and have it as an alternate game setting where things are different. Maybe the Imperium is pushed back but some of the primarchs come back. Maybe the Eldar are more desperate and as a result go on one last major offensive. Maybe the hive fleets encounter the tomb worlds and a major war between nids and crons happens, like WWII and Germany and Russia with the other factions being Greece, Italy, Ethiopia, and Spain. The SOB become stronger due to paranoia about the crumbling Imperium. SW and BA rebel and go off on their own.

I don't know. Something. It would give GW an excuse to make new units. Cancel out old ones and change existing ones. (Like a grav cannon-type vindicator or whatever.)
If you really didn't like it, stick with 40k. Both would be supported and continue to grow. Or if the 50k setting was really dark, make it a possible future and the 40k games were meant to change the course of that dark future.

That's just one idea, but at least it's doing something. Stagnation will only last so long before people start getting really bored with it.
But maybe I'm wrong. It's been around for a long time without much moving forward so maybe "if it aint broke, don't fix it."

I've said before in another thread that the following needs to happen.

Chaos attacks earth at the same time as the Tyranid Fleet enters the system. The Emperor is awakened and returns because Cypher uses the Sword that is never drawn to free him from the Machine that he was actually imprisoned on, not willingly.

Terra is destroyed the Emperor falls back to Mars and the Machine cult.The Primarchs that are still alive come back. Necrons come after the Void Dragon, Eldar come after the Necrons. Tau come after the Tyranids, Orks come after everyone, Dark Eldar ally with Eldar to fight their greatest enemy because a new Eye of Terror is opening on earth.

The Eldar birth their God , he destroys Slaanesh, Abaddon Ascends to Godhood as the god of Chaos Undivided. The Tau take Advantage of the war to increase their Empire, The Necrons get back the power of the Void Dragon. Eldar get back a God, Slaanesh completely corrupts the Dark Eldar and changes to them forever.

So
Imperium - Loses Earth, Gets the Emperor and the Primarchs back, restarts the 2nd Great Crusade.
Eldar - Get a new God
Dark Eldar - Become corrupted by Slaanesh in his death throws and are committed to actually Bringing back Slaanesh in some form now
Orks - Get the biggest battle in the universe
Tryranids - Devour the Astronomicon
Chaos - Get a new Eye of Terror Region, Lose Slaanesh, Abaddon as a good and the Dark Angels are revealed to be the actual Traitors so they gain the Dark Angels. Lion Nel Johnson become the new champion and warlord of Chaos.
Tau - Grow Larger as a Empire
Necrons - Finish their War with the C'Tan and use the power to fully awaken

Every Body Wins!!

Hollismason wrote:
I've said before in another thread that the following needs to happen.

Chaos attacks earth at the same time as the Tyranid Fleet enters the system. The Emperor is awakened and returns because Cypher uses the Sword that is never drawn to free him from the Machine that he was actually imprisoned on, not willingly.

Terra is destroyed the Emperor falls back to Mars and the Machine cult.The Primarchs that are still alive come back. Necrons come after the Void Dragon, Eldar come after the Necrons. Tau come after the Tyranids, Orks come after everyone, Dark Eldar ally with Eldar to fight their greatest enemy because a new Eye of Terror is opening on earth.

The Eldar birth their God , he destroys Slaanesh, Horus Ascends to Godhood as the god of Chaos Undivided. The Tau take Advantage of the war to increase their Empire, The Necrons get back the power of the Void Dragon. Eldar get back a God, Slaanesh completely corrupts the Dark Eldar and changes to them forever.

So
Imperium - Loses Earth, Gets the Emperor and the Primarchs back, restarts the 2nd Great Crusade.
Eldar - Get a new God
Dark Eldar - Become corrupted by Slaanesh in his death throws and are committed to actually Bringing back Slaanesh in some form now
Orks - Get the biggest battle in the universe
Tryranids - Devour the Astronomicon
Chaos - Get a new Eye of Terror Region, Lose Slaanesh, Gain Horus as a good and the Dark Angels are revealed to be the actual Traitors so they gain the Dark Angels. Lion Nel Johnson become the new champion and warlord of Chaos.
Tau - Grow Larger as a Empire
Necrons - Finish their War with the C'Tan and use the power to fully awaken

Every Body Wins!!

...Getting rid of Slaanesh seems to be for it's own sake.

And Horus is deader than dead. His soul was completely obliterated by the Emperor and even the Chaos Gods can't bring him back.

 Kain wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
I've said before in another thread that the following needs to happen.

Chaos attacks earth at the same time as the Tyranid Fleet enters the system. The Emperor is awakened and returns because Cypher uses the Sword that is never drawn to free him from the Machine that he was actually imprisoned on, not willingly.

Terra is destroyed the Emperor falls back to Mars and the Machine cult.The Primarchs that are still alive come back. Necrons come after the Void Dragon, Eldar come after the Necrons. Tau come after the Tyranids, Orks come after everyone, Dark Eldar ally with Eldar to fight their greatest enemy because a new Eye of Terror is opening on earth.

The Eldar birth their God , he destroys Slaanesh, Horus Ascends to Godhood as the god of Chaos Undivided. The Tau take Advantage of the war to increase their Empire, The Necrons get back the power of the Void Dragon. Eldar get back a God, Slaanesh completely corrupts the Dark Eldar and changes to them forever.

So
Imperium - Loses Earth, Gets the Emperor and the Primarchs back, restarts the 2nd Great Crusade.
Eldar - Get a new God
Dark Eldar - Become corrupted by Slaanesh in his death throws and are committed to actually Bringing back Slaanesh in some form now
Orks - Get the biggest battle in the universe
Tryranids - Devour the Astronomicon
Chaos - Get a new Eye of Terror Region, Lose Slaanesh, Gain Horus as a good and the Dark Angels are revealed to be the actual Traitors so they gain the Dark Angels. Lion Nel Johnson become the new champion and warlord of Chaos.
Tau - Grow Larger as a Empire
Necrons - Finish their War with the C'Tan and use the power to fully awaken

Every Body Wins!!

...Getting rid of Slaanesh seems to be for it's own sake.

And Horus is deader than dead. His soul was completely obliterated by the Emperor and even the Chaos Gods can't bring him back.

Which just goes to show how seriously the Emperor takes his Taco Tuesdays.

I meant Abaddon, I dunno why I wrote Horus.

You can advance the storyline and still create great new scenarios where the Imperials are up against a wall.

Everytime this discussion comes up, I have a single point to make:

advancing the plot is all well and good, but not ultimately neccessary for many reasons. However, if GW doesn't want to take that risk, they ought to start seriously developing the 10k years between the Heresy and 999M41.

Every single piece of fluff they develop or add takes place in the last century of M41, with a great deal happening in 999 as well. The whole setting is groaning under this weight of retconned in events into a very small time frame, where the setting itself is supposed to move glacially slow.

Where's the development of the Macharian Crusade and Heresy? What about the Age of Apostasy, maybe bring the Sabbat Worlds Crusade into the tabletop realm, or give the Gothic War some love again.

There's so much room to develop the setting, tell individual stories, add in interesting wrinkles into specific factions for specific timeframes, but it's not happening. Instead we get more shoehorned events in 999M41, more units which have existed, apparently, for centuries without us knowing, all the while the great majority of 40k's history is, at best, a Black Library series for a few specific cases, but more often are little more than a paragraph of text somewhere, maybe a few old White Dwarf articles from back when GW cared.

Just because "it's a setting," doen't mean GW can sit around and do nothing with it and expect players to keep caring. Honestly, without Black Library, I can't see the setting surviving, and even then, that particular house is becomming the Horus Heresy Library, which doesn't neccessarily appeal to everyone.

Every person that brings up the fact that 40K is a setting and not a story ought to look up the definition of setting and also metaplot, a device which has been present in tabletop gaming for decades. Even 40K used to have a metaplot - the invasion of Tyranids, the Third War for Armageddon or the 13th Black Crusade were results of an advancing storyline. Back then, GW weren't apprehensive about pushing the timeline forward. But then they turned on a dime and halted the clock for whatever reason.

Sure, drastic changes are bound to upset some fans, but so do retcons, and those are bread and butter of 40K nowadays. Besides, at some point, a setting grows stale, and I believe 40K is far past this point. Every time I open up a new publication, I see the same stuff I've read in the '90s. They give me no reason to buy their books for the fluff, which used to be the case.

Hollismason wrote:
I've said before in another thread that the following needs to happen.

Chaos attacks earth at the same time as the Tyranid Fleet enters the system. The Emperor is awakened and returns because Cypher uses the Sword that is never drawn to free him from the Machine that he was actually imprisoned on, not willingly.

Terra is destroyed the Emperor falls back to Mars and the Machine cult.The Primarchs that are still alive come back. Necrons come after the Void Dragon, Eldar come after the Necrons. Tau come after the Tyranids, Orks come after everyone, Dark Eldar ally with Eldar to fight their greatest enemy because a new Eye of Terror is opening on earth.

The Eldar birth their God , he destroys Slaanesh, Abaddon Ascends to Godhood as the god of Chaos Undivided. The Tau take Advantage of the war to increase their Empire, The Necrons get back the power of the Void Dragon. Eldar get back a God, Slaanesh completely corrupts the Dark Eldar and changes to them forever.

So
Imperium - Loses Earth, Gets the Emperor and the Primarchs back, restarts the 2nd Great Crusade.
Eldar - Get a new God
Dark Eldar - Become corrupted by Slaanesh in his death throws and are committed to actually Bringing back Slaanesh in some form now
Orks - Get the biggest battle in the universe
Tryranids - Devour the Astronomicon
Chaos - Get a new Eye of Terror Region, Lose Slaanesh, Abaddon as a good and the Dark Angels are revealed to be the actual Traitors so they gain the Dark Angels. Lion Nel Johnson become the new champion and warlord of Chaos.
Tau - Grow Larger as a Empire
Necrons - Finish their War with the C'Tan and use the power to fully awaken

Every Body Wins!!

Agreed, or a thousand other scenarios like this. GW should have enough creative minds to move us to the "next generation" of the 40k universe, without removing any factions. They could even do something like saying that all 6th ed codices are still valid when the 7th edition "next gen" ones come out (so you can take gen2 necrons against gen1 white scars if you want). They could do all types of stuff with this. To me the fact that they haven't, just says they don't need to yet. I'm fine with that. It leaves them a last ditch ace if they need to play it in the future. Right now, I just wish they'd stop it with all the formations and dataslates and supplements and so called mini-codices... do some playtesting, and release well thought out material at a little bit more reasonable pace. Why does it need to be 10 mph or 100 with these guys?