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Hello dakka as the title says. How do the Black Templars get away with there massive numbers? I mean come on theres like upwards of 5000 of them I have seen estimates as high as 8000. How have the inquisition and other chapters not intervened with such emphasis on the codex after the heresy. I know the Space Wolves have large numbers but they can just flip the imperum off if they metion it and use the excuse that there a first founding chapter and so they can do what they like and the Space Wolves are no wear near as big as the Templars. I mean theTemplars are almost as big as the Thousand Sons legion was at its prime (i belive they have about 8000 marines at the beging of the horus heresy). Then theres the logistical issue of equipping, arming and supplying more than 5000 space marines where do the suplies come from? They need the same amount of resources as 5 chapters or more I mean sure it can be from all over the galaxy with them being a crusading chapter but thats still a hell of a lot of resources to gather and then distribute. Then theres the fact that they must have one of the biggest if not the biggest imperial fleet there is that they much keep in good order carry out repairs regualy and supply how do they manage that? I understand that many Black Templars are attached to other fleets and crusades and so they dont use the Black Templar ships for a long period of time but the templars will still need high numbers of ships for distrobuting thoes sqauds and houseing them when they returne to the chapter to embark on there next crusade.

Sorry for any spelling mistakes my spell checkr has desabled its self and i cant get it to work and im dyslexic so that dosent help ither

This was orginaly gona be a small qestion but it ended up turning into a rant of qestions so thanks for spending your time reading it and any answers will be much aperciated.

Starting a civil war with a massive faction possessing numerous ties to other political factions, is a legendary hero and a symbol of hope, and has the fleets to not only rebuke any attack, but blow them out of the water and even destroy planets tends to be a bad idea. Any Inquisitor who was stupid enough would also have a short lifespan, considering the Black Templars are one of the greatest allies of the Imperial Truth by viewing the Emperor as a god.

If I remember correctly, no one really knows how many they are because they're split into different crusades. Given they are constantly crusading, no one really cares I'd imagine, or at least they feel okay looking the other way. The only way it'd be an issue is if they started getting lazy or actually consolidated.

I can actually answer that. Most Templars are in groups of between squad and company levels. On average, most crusades are conducted with a squad or as much as several hundred. You will almost never see more than 500 Black Templars in the same general area, which helps alleviate the tension of their size. They also happen to be extremely fond of the Emperor, which means that not too many people in power would really want to object with them. While the the overall High Marshall keeps tabs on the various crusade fleets of the Black Templars, it is the secular Marshall in charge of the individual crusade to keep track of the accounts at hand. Long story short, as long as they keep crusading in the Emperor's name and don't do anything stupid, no one in their right mind argues with their doctrines. As I recall, these guys were made from the most zealous marines in the Imperial Fist legion, and you you really want to fight zealots whose primary form of killing tends to be at close range and most likely with their bare hands?

Its because they're spread way the frack out.

They are a fleet based Crusading chapter, so you never see their full compliment(or even a full company) at any one time unless some serious &%*^ is going down. And you'll still only see 4-6 companies together at most.


The Codex Astartes 1000 marine limit has never been strictly enforced, I don't think any chapter has ever been called out on it. The Space Wolves basically said "*^&% you Gulliman" and kept their original size anyway. Nobody ever called them out on that because otherwise they are fanatically loyal to the Imperium. The Ecclesiarchy went to war with them once over possibly being mutants, but we all know how that turned out.

Basically, as long as the chapter remains loyal to the Imperium, they are willing to turn a blind eye.

The Codex was also more like guidelines than actual rules, its down to the individual chapter how they want to follow it. Ultramarines and their successors tend to follow it fanatically because "Spiritual Liege", but others rarely comply with it to the letter. Nearly every chapter will have some deviation from its recommendations.

Simply put the Inquisiton has bigger worries given the unwavering loyalty of the Chapter and their devotion / worship of the Emperor..... They keep an eye on them but there are other Chapters that are under much more suspicion - Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Flesh Tearers..........

The BT also seldom unite in any strength and so few have seen their true numbers.

Because nobody sees them often enough to keep track of them. Most Space Marine chapters are self sufficient, providing their own munitions, recruits etc so the Munitorum can't say for sure. There's also the fact the Templars are fleet based, and are sparse in terms of concentration on a galactic scale.

Also, who's counting and who cares?

As far as i know, they are exploiting a loophole in codex astartes that says a crusading chapter is allowed to have more than 1000 marines, and they're on their eternal crusade so... Plus what the others said, they are thinly spread across the galaxy and because only high marshal knows their exact number inquisitors can't say for sure unless he said it to them themselves(they still don't have authority to force him to say theexact num )ber or they're gonna be chopped in half by sword of the high marshals

Too spread out, there forces are spread across a big galexy, rarely if never coming together.

+ there loyalty despite inquisition prying has never been proven nothing but loyal to the death to the emperor. And since they don't,t do impirum trouble, why ruin a good thing.

Also its a big galexy, not hard for some inquisition agents to have a accident in such a big galexy full of so many dangers.

they just do. The BTs believe they will be the first line of defense against another heresy.

ThatSwellFella wrote:
As far as i know, they are exploiting a loophole in codex astartes that says a crusading chapter is allowed to have more than 1000 marines, and they're on their eternal crusade so... Plus what the others said, they are thinly spread across the galaxy and because only high marshal knows their exact number inquisitors can't say for sure unless he said it to them themselves(they still don't have authority to force him to say theexact num )ber or they're gonna be chopped in half by sword of the high marshals

This^. They are totally exploiting a loophole. In addition, the Crusaders are actually independant chapters in all regards. They recruit from different stock and train their own folks.

The BT aren't a Codex-adherent Chapter. The CA, and the fact that they won't follow it, is entirely why they exist. So they're not so much exploiting a loophole as giving it a big middle-finger and rolling on with the Crusade they were fighting over 10,000 years ago.

Well, they're probably the reason the loophole exists...

A lot of the people posting have the truth of it, but partly, it seems like a misapprehension on your part, given the question.

The Black Templars aren't 'getting away' with anything. The Codex isn't a rulebook imposed upon the Chapters by any outside organization. It is a series of guidelines and maxims, written by a primarch, and adopted by the chapters. There was a lot of politicking and leverage applied to get the Legions to agree to adopt the Codex, and not everyone did. The Space Wolves refused entirely, and the Imperial Fists Legion ending up 'splitting up' over it, with some of the Legion adopting it relatively wholesale (the current IF, CF, etc.) and others only agreeing to certain aspects of the reorganization (BT).

Deviating from the Codex can cause a Chapter to be viewed as suspicious or unreliable, but the only 'punishment' for not following the Codex would emerge from within the organizational structure of the Chapter (as seen with the Ultramarines and Uriel Ventris).

Having said that, the Black Templars also managed to address the concerns behind the Codex by operating entirely as a series of Crusades, as others have noted. Guilliman wanted to see the Legions broken apart so that no one commander could control the number of men and resources of a Legion again. The Templar Crusades are largely controlled by each individual Marshall (which minimizes their vulnerability to being misled by a single commander) and operate as crusades, rather than taking and holding territory (minimizing the impact that a rogue commander could have on the Imperial social structure). Given that they are constantly 'on crusade', their numbers probably also stem from a large number of neophytes, as the Templars don't 'rebuild' after a conflict, but continue to crusade while recruiting. That also means that their numbers might be larger, but they might have a higher percentage of novice Marines than many other Chapters.

Black Templars march single file to disguise their true numbers.

Da Butcha wrote:
A lot of the people posting have the truth of it, but partly, it seems like a misapprehension on your part, given the question.

The Black Templars aren't 'getting away' with anything. The Codex isn't a rulebook imposed upon the Chapters by any outside organization. It is a series of guidelines and maxims, written by a primarch, and adopted by the chapters. There was a lot of politicking and leverage applied to get the Legions to agree to adopt the Codex, and not everyone did. The Space Wolves refused entirely, and the Imperial Fists Legion ending up 'splitting up' over it, with some of the Legion adopting it relatively wholesale (the current IF, CF, etc.) and others only agreeing to certain aspects of the reorganization (BT).

Deviating from the Codex can cause a Chapter to be viewed as suspicious or unreliable, but the only 'punishment' for not following the Codex would emerge from within the organizational structure of the Chapter (as seen with the Ultramarines and Uriel Ventris).

Having said that, the Black Templars also managed to address the concerns behind the Codex by operating entirely as a series of Crusades, as others have noted. Guilliman wanted to see the Legions broken apart so that no one commander could control the number of men and resources of a Legion again. The Templar Crusades are largely controlled by each individual Marshall (which minimizes their vulnerability to being misled by a single commander) and operate as crusades, rather than taking and holding territory (minimizing the impact that a rogue commander could have on the Imperial social structure). Given that they are constantly 'on crusade', their numbers probably also stem from a large number of neophytes, as the Templars don't 'rebuild' after a conflict, but continue to crusade while recruiting. That also means that their numbers might be larger, but they might have a higher percentage of novice Marines than many other Chapters.

Shots were fired because the Imperial Fists (and Space Wolves and Salamanders) didn't initially want to split up. There was nearly a civil war, again.

I remember something about how BT would have nothing to do with psykers other than their astropaths. They refused to tolerate any psykers and were therefore EXTREMELY unlikely to be turned to Chaos because of how fanatic they are as a group.

Same as the Space Wolves blowing the Church Task Force..then a following Task Force of Church and SoB out of their solar system..they both fight for the Emperor with great gusto and motivation..dedication.commitment...Hardcore...High Speed Low Drag

They have no psykers like Liberians, but use likes of navigators as they have too, you cannot go to warp long range without them.

Astropatchs for comuncation, they only use what they have to tolerate.

Only ones I think they will trust are grey knights, but there a whole different kettle of psykers. Not one has ever fallen to chaos

How do the Space Wolves get away with mutation, heresey and I subordination bordering on treason?

How do the Dark Angels get away with not following orders?

How do the Blood Angels and their successors get away with mutation and attacking other Imperium forces?

How do the Salamanders get away with mutation and heresey?

How do the Iron Hands get away with worshipping the Machine Cult?

How do the Ultramarines get away with leading an army of 50 marine chapters to Holy Terra?

The answer is that the Imperium can't get by without the Marines, especially the first founders. So the tolerance for being out of line with the exact doctrine is pretty high as long as results for the good of the Imperium continue to roll in.

How do the Space Wolves get away with mutation, heresey and I subordination bordering on treason?

Plot armor.

How do the Dark Angels get away with not following orders?

They're Space Marines, Jim.

How do the Salamanders get away with mutation and heresey?

That's not a mutation, it's a malfunction of their geneseed.

How do the Iron Hands get away with worshipping the Machine Cult?

Because there's no requirement for Space Marines to worship the Emperor as a god, though many Chapters do.

How do the Ultramarines get away with leading an army of 50 marine chapters to Holy Terra?

Because 60% of all Space Marine Chapters currently in existence are UM Successors. When Calgar calls, half the Space Marines currently in the Imperium come running.

Let's sat some inquisitor out there does have an issue with the Templars, let's even say he has irrefutable proof like he stole helbrechts iPad or something. (That was a joke by the way, we all know the space marines are PC people)

What can he do? He's just a man, he has power and influence, but not enough to take on a second founding chapter. I mean look at the stir the minotaurs caused when they messed up one of the ultramarines successors, and the minotaurs have much more powerful friends than some random inquisitor. To take down a marine chapter you need another marine chapter, grey knights or a massive guard and navy force, and all of those organisations would probably be more inclined to side with the Templars.

Sisters of Battle.

The go-to for taking down rogue Space Marine Chapters are the Sisters of Battle.

 troa wrote:
If I remember correctly, no one really knows how many they are because they're split into different crusades.

This the reason I remember for their numbers supposedly being high.

As others said, the codex astartes is more an UNDERSTANDING then a hard core rule. That said chapters that breach them tend to end up under close scrutiny. you can be damned sure the Imperium keeps a close eye on the BTs. However there's never been, as far as I know, ANY reason to question their loyalty

 EmilCrane wrote:
Let's sat some inquisitor out there does have an issue with the Templars, let's even say he has irrefutable proof like he stole helbrechts iPad or something. (That was a joke by the way, we all know the space marines are PC people)

Space Marines aren't PC people. Their gear works nicely...





Why does anyone consider the question: "get away with massive numbers" not resolved at the fact the BT are second founding and may never have to have to organize according to codicium gullimanensis. ?

Chapters followed the codex after the Legions were split up.
The BT were Imperial Fist Space marines. They didn't pick up this codex, they just moved out to keep on crusading.

You can't expect non-codex compliant Space Marines to follow the codex they don't comply to.
So massive numbers are ok. They don't have to organize as a chapter of 10x Marines > 10xsquads > 10x companies.

For the same reason the Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Iron Hands, Blood Angels and others get away with their varying degrees of defiance. They get away with it because they are Astartes; legendary warriors descended from the God-Emperor himself. When a ambitious, overzealous inquisitor does come to stick his nose in their business, they will simply make him 'disappear'. And as long they remain loyal and keep fighting for the Imperium, taking action against them would be more trouble than it is worth.
Also of note is that the Black Templars are spread out a lot, so their huge numbers are not immediately obvious.

As for the supply area, most crusades are self sufficient. There is some fluff saying small crusades may be supporting other Imperial missions and are supported by those mission leaders. As for numbers I think the answer has been given by many. The old BT codex stated there are at times over a dozen major crusades going on. Who knows how many smaller crusades. With their numbers so spread out there is no proof.

http://web.archive.org/web/20030218023652/http://www.armageddon3.com/English/Codex/black_templars_army.html


The Templars may indeed have the largest space fleet and chapter numbers if ever gathered in one place, but unless Terra is being invaded, a Primarch returns, or the Emperor calls, we will not see them all together.

TL;DR because they haven't given anyone a reason to care, because the BT's are usually spread out in difficult to track groups, and because plot armor.

Realistically, 5000 SM's that haven't given any indication of disloyalty, spread out over vast areas with minimal centralized control isn't much of an issue for most people that would care about such things and isn't doing much to raise many flags.

If it were, with the given size of the Imperial Guard and other Imperial forces (PDF, Navy, etc), they could be exterminated in very short order at very little cost.

Remember, for each individual Space Marine, there's about as many guardsmen as all the soldiers/mercenaries/warriors/etc that have ever existed in the real world from all cultures and nations since the beginning of time, there's billions of individual IG regiments, each composed of several thousand soldiers each (not to mention planetary defense forces, Navy forces, etc), unless Plot Armor comes into play.


So with little evidence of a reason to go after them, and a surety that they could be eradicated relatively quickly if need be, why go after the BT's?