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I remember a similar thread popping up here recently. However, I wanted to talk about what I have noticed primarily in the past year, and probably more specifically in the past 6 months. Anyway, most stores around me run 1-2 tournaments a month, in addition to casual game days usually once a week. Out of 4 stores, which are each located 1-1.5 hours away from each other, they have all noticed a significant drop off in 40K recently. In my opinion this is too much to chalk up as coincidence. The store closest to me has seen tournaments go from 12-16 people always showing up to 3-6 on average now. Last month I showed up and nobody else came.

I had a very long chat with the owner of a store about 1.5 hours away from me since I was in the area. He said that ever since the menagerie of releases he has seen the community get burnt out and lose steam. He said there was about a 3 month period where everybody was loving the fast releases and hitting the game hard, but players have since dwindled significantly. He also said it almost seems as if Escalation and Stronghold Assault were the final nail in the coffin to the game. Although there are a few powergamers who love those additions, the vast majority do not see D weapons as fun at all. He's not really a huge 40K player but he knows a problem when he sees it, and he told his GW rep know, and the rep's response was "Well people can play the game however they want."

Does anybody else have similar experiences?

"Playing the game however you want" is clearly something GW is working against, giving everything a book and expansion and eliminating any unit that does not have a specific model. Also trademarking everything and even changing the names of armies so they can trademark them. They have said a definitive no to concepts like kit-bashing, rule modification, conversions, and so on.

But despite GW's attempts, yes, playing t he game however you want is the only way 40k can continue. Playing within the GW structure is impossible if you're sane. Too expensive, rules are terrible, need to buy too much stuff, and the company is actively at war with you/.

Can't wait till these guys finally die out. It's inevitable and I'm really looking forward to seeing some new blood adopt the franchise. Some people with enjoyment and love for tabletop gaming I expect and hope - as I doubt anyone else would see the potential, I imagine all but the most shrewd business bigwigs would just look at diminishing returns and see it as a dying enterprise. Either way, whoever takes over will obviously be doing it under the knowledge of what made GW fail, so being worse would be close to impossible. I expect a few mistakes to begin with until they get into the swing of things, but mistakes that I expect will be errata'd or worked into balancing decisions, as opposed to just swept under the rug like most of us ain't gunna hear about it or will forget about it, if they don't draw attention to it. A new company will also be much more flexible as anybody running anything in 2014 realises they have to. It's the digital age and nothing is irreparable, including codex missteps but the entire company itself.

And no, it is not too early to write GW off. It's a matter of time for them. And it seems to be happening extremely fast.

40k is still the most popular but due to prices the amount being spent on GW has slowed down considerably and many are buying recasts instead of paying GW prices. The rules are alive and kicking but only one 40k guy and the Tournament fantasy players buy huge amounts of GW stuff.

So in a way 40k is dying, but its more in how much people spend there than anything else. But I suspect most groups would be like that at some point. There is only so much 40k you can buy before its wasteful.

Flames of war is growing which is awesome. Infinity had a phase but now there is like 2-4 guys playing it.

My observation:

Local LGS which deals primarily with CCGs and board games decides to expand to wargaming. He orders in 2 full stands worth of GW stock, and a few months later has a very basic single stand of Warmachine stuff (basically just a few rulebooks, the starter battleboxes and paints).

He sets up two gaming nights - Tuesdays for 40k/GW and Wednesdays for Warmachine. There's also Sundays with open gaming so wargaming allowed then. The owner doesn't particularly promote wargaming so no demos or anything, just has some stock and a couple of allocated nights.

40k nights started off being very popular - maybe 8-10 players and warmachine had a couple of people turning up for pre-arranged games.

5 months later, 40k nights are dead and Warmachine nights are heaving with a minimum of 10-12 players turning up. 40k nights have unofficially become a 2nd Warmachine night.

My observation:
40k is still going reasonably strong here, as is Fantasy. I have never seen a Warmachine player in my entire life, and the LGS doesn't even sell it; just board games and GW stuff.


GW is still by far the largest in wargaming, and that is not going to change anytime soon. On the long term however, I think they need to lower their prices as the current ones make it near impossible for kids to get into 40k. And without enough new players, 40k will eventually shrink and die out.

And yet another GW hate thread. What is this? Hate thread #37894?

Seriously though if you guys are noticing the decline and are happy with it please send your unused models to me. I'll put them to good use

This is the problem gw used to own the market for a while in the late 90s and early 2000s they were it for war gaming but that's no longer the case.

I've been playing x-wing for the last six months and I enjoy it alot more than 40k, for well under a £100 I have a full fleet and I can set up and play a game in 45 minutes, my last game of warhammer took three hours, x-wing has clear rules that allow for a fast argument free fun game.

I can't remember the last time a rule book wasn't pulled out during a game of 40k.

I'm also getting back into battletech and their alpha strike rules let you play sweeping large scale games in fast games thanks to well designed rules.

40k is a confusing mess of a game and that's why people are getting frustrated and playing other games.

Gitsmasher wrote:And yet another GW hate thread. What is this? Hate thread #37894?

Seriously though if you guys are noticing the decline and are happy with it please send your unused models to me. I'll put them to good use

It's not a hate thread, it's merely an observation that people are leaving the game in OPs area. People are then free to draw conclusions as to why that is but that doesn't make it a hate thread at all.

Swastakowey wrote:40k is still the most popular but due to prices the amount being spent on GW has slowed down considerably and many are buying recasts instead of paying GW prices. The rules are alive and kicking but only one 40k guy and the Tournament fantasy players buy huge amounts of GW stuff.

Is this something you have actually seen in your area? I've only ever seen 1 guy running recasts where I have seen an entire gaming group simply abandon GW entirely and a few people continuing to play the game with only their 10+ year old models.


40k is very much alive here thanks to a very competitive tourney scene that bring all those BS powergamer lists and a relatively new store (the first we have ever had less than an hours drive away). Outside of that one club though my city is a (gaming) cultural wastland. We have a comic book store that sells some models and the previously mentioned GW shoe closet, and I think there might be a warmachine group still playing somewhere.
Outside of here though the nearest FLGS (maybe half an hour away) GW games seem to have been put to rest a long time ago. They have some things sitting on the shelf but not nearly as many as they do for flames of war or warmahordes. Hell I think they actually have more infinity, dystopian wars and dropzone commander than they do 40k. The more troubling thing from GWs perspective though is that I have seen 10-12 year old kids, GWs target audience, the kind of people they want to draw in, introduce to the hobby and squeeze dry over a year or two, playing warmachine instead of 40k.

40k tends to have a fair few people playing it at mid-high points where I live, Warmachine is a bit more popular though has dwindled since Firestorm Armada took off (probably the most popular oddly) and WH:FB started up in popularity.

95% of the 40k players have painted armies though and I've never seen a single fully/mostly/half painted Warmahordes army, despite having seen about 2 dozen or more individuals. Noone bothers, they just throw a bunch of white metal on the table. Even If I liked the system, I hate the models, and I detest how nobody seems to care about anything other than the gameplay, so its not for me.

In my area Warmachine and 40k seem to be pretty tied, to the point I had seriously considered starting Warmachine instead of 40k.

40k is conspicuously absent from indie stores here. FOW and Malifaux pretty much dominate the scene (by virtue of cheap Zvezda miniatures, and a lively steampunk fandom). Due to some PR and distribition screwups (that PP has recently attempted to fix) Warmachine never quite caught, and Infinity is dead to all effects and purposes.

That doesn't mean that 40k is dead over here. In two years, we 40k players have moved from instore pickup games to clubs and games between close-knit groups of friends. And the local GW store, that is making an awesome job in keeping the crowds active and interested.

Given lack of FLGS and proper GW gaming table support in Mississauga and our relatively small group, we mainly play 40K at our basements but that is being subsumed a bit more by 40K RPG's by FFG like Deathwatch and Black Crusade.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
40k tends to have a fair few people playing it at mid-high points where I live, Warmachine is a bit more popular though has dwindled since Firestorm Armada took off (probably the most popular oddly) and WH:FB started up in popularity.

95% of the 40k players have painted armies though and I've never seen a single fully/mostly/half painted Warmahordes army, despite having seen about 2 dozen or more individuals. Noone bothers, they just throw a bunch of white metal on the table. Even If I liked the system, I hate the models, and I detest how nobody seems to care about anything other than the gameplay, so its not for me.

From my observations, People do try to paint the stuff but a different attitude has crept in especially regarding warmahordes. The game is actually making people want to play it, so if you have a new filthy combo or doing a 'test run' of a list then a grey army it is... What also doesn't help is the fact some of the models are a pain to paint, that is where GW still wins hands down.

And the enthusiasm over warmahordes is the telling thing at my club, as well as the fact the rules actually work consistently well. The gameplay i'll admit is a challenge when coming form 40k but, i can have a game, get battered and know where i went wrong without having an 'auto-lose' situation as happens in 40k (they do occur in warmahordes but where i play this hasn't happened yet...)

An no offense intended the many issues I and others i have with GW are related to the gameplay. GW models maybe very good but the motivation to paint them for me has gone down the pan due to the downward spiral 40k has taken into absurdity, and the fact the warmahordes rules run like a breeze which makes it more importantly fun! Not a single Craptastic screamerstar or other stupidly broke unit in sight...


Whats more Privateer Press seem to care about their game. It comes to something when i am dreading the new IG codex for the simple reason i am sure my current collection is going to get screwed over, and i'll have to start, in effect, again. Which i'm about fed up with to be perfectly honest... more 40k stuff that will be scrap, oh well more funds for warmachine

Just my humble opinion

The most obvious reason for this, to me, is that we're coming up on two years since 6th ed came out. Whenever a new version of rules comes out, you get a bunch of people swarming back out of the woodworks to give it a try and then eventually moving on again. This is also true for codices, and you'll notice that some of the most popular armies also have the oldest books. I bet you'll see a small surge of players once the new guard codex comes out, as it will generate excitement and people will want to try out the new rules for their old army.

This kind of thing is cyclical in nature, where 40k becomes more and less popular slowly over time.

If there is anything structural, perhaps it's that 40k is finally starting to shed people who think 40k is a strategy game. People who are WAAC absolutely love all the new stuff, as it lets them try out a plethora of new game-abusing options, and people who play the game for the purpose of competing or for the purpose of just playing the game and enjoying it aren't going to think poorly about what's going on.

It doesn't surprise me that some people are moving on to fielding unpainted warmahordes armies, as, for whatever reason, there's the impression floating around that the game is more "strategic". If it means that PP gets all the whiners on their forums, I don't see it as a loss to 40k.

Sadly at my FLGS it's all 40k and CCGs of course. There was a guy demoing Warmachine but nothing ever came of it, and everything else is completely unknown - I don't even think they sell anything for Malifaux or Flames of War or anything else, there's a small area of 40k/WHFB and then a tiny area with a few WM boxes, and everything else is tables for playing MtG and a couple of 40k gaming tables. The only game played other than MtG and the occasional RPG is 40k, I think mostly because they are unwilling to give anything else a try.

In my area there's about 3 stores, but this is the closest one - the furthest one has a lot of Warmachine going on and I think less 40k but it's a bit too far for me to consider, and I don't know about the 3rd as I've been meaning to check it out but haven't had the time yet.

In my area during the worst of the recession GW games were still going strong, 5th edition revitalized the game and people were investing in their armies and it was only 40k and WHFB that kept the FLGS going when the magic players had to curtail their spending.

I've seen their Point of sale numbers for 40k, you can see the cliff in sales volume that corresponds to the month that 6th ed came out. The dollars spent per transaction is about the same, but the number of transactions is approaching 0 per week. People don't want to spend 300 bucks in books and models to only just update their armies. WHFB isn't nearly as dead, but its pretty damn close.

The store currently supports Warmachine/hordes, x-wing/startrek, hero clicks, battletech, flames of war, Malifaux, infinity, and a few other niche games. All are much more active than the 40k player base. We have more people show up to DuelMasters events (all 6 players). This was even after the store expanded to 12 gaming tables. Currently we get maybe 3 games in the store in a week. 12 tables, great provided terrain, dedicated 40k night.... Player base has shrunk so low that we have like 5 active players in a college town. The active players are mostly just sunk cost types who don't want to feel like they wasted their time/money. They admit to not really enjoying the game anymore.

 Ailaros wrote:
If there is anything structural, perhaps it's that 40k is finally starting to shed people who think 40k is a strategy game.

I mostly agree with your post, but that line made me chuckle.

I think you're confusing Wargame strategy with MOBA rock-paper-scissors-archmage "strategy", and most gamers who get frustrated with 40k are, too. I, for one, I'm glad that the hypercaffeinated DOTA teens have finally found their place in Warmachine, but 40k has its roots in historical wargames and for good or bad it should stand true to them. It is (or should be) a strategy game, not a set of action figures.

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
If there is anything structural, perhaps it's that 40k is finally starting to shed people who think 40k is a strategy game.

I mostly agree with your post, but that line made me chuckle.

I think you're confusing Wargame strategy with MOBA rock-paper-scissors-archmage "strategy", and most gamers who get frustrated with 40k are, too. I, for one, I'm glad that the hypercaffeinated DOTA teens have finally found their place in Warmachine. 40k has its roots in historical wargames and for good or bad it should stand true to them. It is (or should be) a strategy game, not a set of action figures.

That's exactly what 40k has become ever since GW has pushed larger and larger battles, totally imbalanced rules and hand-waving it all away with this "forge the narrative" gak. 40k is closer to MOBAs now than any sort of historical wargaming, where it's not what you bring it's how you use it. 40k hasn't been like that for at least two editions, if ever.

Have we forgotten GK already with the multi wound shenanigans?

Taudar are dominating the tournament scene so clearly are not balanced.

Lots of imbalance in 40k.

hobojebus wrote:
Have we forgotten GK already with the multi wound shenanigans?

Taudar are dominating the tournament scene so clearly are not balanced.

Lots of imbalance in 40k.

You're out of the loop, Tau haven't been dominating tournaments like they used to for months. Eldar are still grabbing top spots, and GK are nowhere to be seen as top tier. I think I saw one person take a GK+Crons list halfway through last year that got into the finals of a large tourney, but that's about it.

WayneTheGame wrote:
That's exactly what 40k has become ever since GW has pushed larger and larger battles, totally imbalanced rules and hand-waving it all away with this "forge the narrative" gak. 40k is closer to MOBAs now than any sort of historical wargaming, where it's not what you bring it's how you use it. 40k hasn't been like that for at least two editions, if ever.

Well, I see that as close to pushing GI Joes across the floor with no rules to guide you but "this looks good" and "Cobra has cooler uniforms" like I did when I was six

I would say my own experience now around me would be that 40k is on life support, kept alive by a few dedicated. (Not dedicated enough to fix any issues :p)

Warmachine is taking over for just having better rules, and everything we used to do with 40k is now done with warmachine,I still play both. But I am not taking my 40k unless someone asks for a game a week in advance.
If not for the story and universe created I think it would have been tossed out long ago here.

It's all quite disappointing.

I have not seen anything else than 40K here. We lost a few people but that was not an edition thing, more general burnout.

Our player core remains solid.

I think a lot of people are in shock right now with 40k's release schedule, smearing of rules all over the place, and general addition of units that were never part of 40k prior. Once that shock wears off and things solidify(maybe next edition, unfortunately), things should get back to normal.

On the local front, 40k nights have nearly died. They are now a mix of Warmachine/40k nights with Warmachine being played more than 40k by a nearly 3 to 1 margin. The interest in 40k is just not there at the moment.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Have we forgotten GK already with the multi wound shenanigans?

Taudar are dominating the tournament scene so clearly are not balanced.

Lots of imbalance in 40k.

You're out of the loop, Tau haven't been dominating tournaments like they used to for months. Eldar are still grabbing top spots, and GK are nowhere to be seen as top tier. I think I saw one person take a GK+Crons list halfway through last year that got into the finals of a large tourney, but that's about it.

I dont do tournaments so i well may be, but even going off old tourney results its clear only certain armies are performing well

It could be a weather thing, i've noticed summer months tend to bring out gamers much more than cold rainy months. As soon as it starts to rain i'll pretty much only have games at home or a friends house to avoid dealing with the rain.

 herpguy wrote:
I remember a similar thread popping up here recently. However, I wanted to talk about what I have noticed primarily in the past year, and probably more specifically in the past 6 months. Anyway, most stores around me run 1-2 tournaments a month, in addition to casual game days usually once a week. Out of 4 stores, which are each located 1-1.5 hours away from each other, they have all noticed a significant drop off in 40K recently. In my opinion this is too much to chalk up as coincidence. The store closest to me has seen tournaments go from 12-16 people always showing up to 3-6 on average now. Last month I showed up and nobody else came.

I had a very long chat with the owner of a store about 1.5 hours away from me since I was in the area. He said that ever since the menagerie of releases he has seen the community get burnt out and lose steam. He said there was about a 3 month period where everybody was loving the fast releases and hitting the game hard, but players have since dwindled significantly. He also said it almost seems as if Escalation and Stronghold Assault were the final nail in the coffin to the game. Although there are a few powergamers who love those additions, the vast majority do not see D weapons as fun at all. He's not really a huge 40K player but he knows a problem when he sees it, and he told his GW rep know, and the rep's response was "Well people can play the game however they want."

Does anybody else have similar experiences?

Exactly the same that is happening around here, most people are going to MtG, infinity, x-wing or PP. Most of the reasons have to do with the ally system and how it makes absolutely stupid armies that both have no fluff justification and broken as hell to play against. Like Centstar with Missilesides/riptide and a buffmander. It makes for unfun, frustratingly annoying games, and after a while you just don't want to do it anymore. It also doesn't help that assault is dead as hell, the sure fire way to ruin your game is failing a 5" charge. Then there is FMCs which you are practically impotent to stop.

Most of the time you can ignore your hatred for GW and enjoy 40k, but they've managed to weasel their way into the core of the game and cornered many people into dealing with them.

It seems that in the US (and even in parts of Canada) Fantasy is all but extinct, and 40k is holding out only in the hearts and minds of the most loyal gamers. Warmachine/Hordes are the most dominant game in my area, and we see increasing amounts of X-wing, Infinity, Malifaux, and Dropzone Commander being played, and are trying to resuscitate Flames of War, which has about a dozen or more inactive gamers locally. Personally, I WANT to get back into 40k, but GW is making it hard for me to do so, with the pace of releases and the implementation of Allies/Formations and all that utter drivel, and all the extraneous rules sources to be found online, digitally, in white dwarf, sub codecies, codecies, etc. they've basically confused me out of interest. Its too much of a time, energy, and brain investment to figure out IMO.

As a personal observation, 40k isn't dying, but it's no longer the overwhelmingly singular presence it once was, and Fantasy is practically dead.

where once 40k was the major dominant game, with fantasy a distant 2nd and Warmachine a near unheard of 3rd and Flames of War even further behind, now 40k is merely the most popular amongst many, with lots of new competition like Infinity, Dropzone Commander, Firestorm Armada, Dark Age, Malifaux, Bolt Action, X-Wing, etc while Flames of War and Warmahordes have gotten much bigger.

40k is getting more expensive (significantly so), while also getting more and more convoluted and messy with regards to rules (availability, quality, functionality, etc) and the double-whammy is noticeably taking its toll.