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Hi all.

If a Necron harbinger of the Storm Fires at an Eldar Titan with its haywire staff, does the Holo field rule make it so that the haywire hits have to be rerolled to see if they hit (4+/3+) or as haywire states that instead of rolling for Armour Penetration normally you roll a D6 and consult the Haywire table.

The 'Eldar Titan Holo-fields" State that. "Before making an armour penetration roll or rolling on a Destroyer Weapon Attack table for attacks against this model, the attacker must roll a D6 to see if the attack hit the target or a holo-field image."

Where as "Haywire" States. "When a weapon with this special rule hits a vehicle, roll a D6 to determine the effect rather than rolling Armour Penetration normally."

It would seem that an attack with the Haywire USR is not making an Armour Penetration roll and thus gets around the holo-fields.

I also make note that both the D-Weapon table, and Armour Pen rolls are specifically called out in the holo-field rule.

So does an attack with the haywire USR get around Holo-Fields? or No?

RAW it would appear so. The trigger for holo fields is armour pen rolls. Haywire means no armour pen roll, there for no trigger. It would be like failing difficult terrain and being immobilized. No pen roll, no holo field.

Not for sure I would ask my opponent to play it that way, but that's not always RAW.

that's how I see it. no Armor Pen roll means no Holo-Field trigger.

plus, I could see it working in fluff, too. a crackling, disruptive energy field would probably screw up a holo-field.

Do you get cover saves vs haywire? how does the wording compare there (not got brb handy)

Yes you can get cover saves vs haywire, as you gain cover for pen or glancing hits which haywire still generates.

You still have a point in time at which you will be looking to make an armour penetration roll, therefore have a point in time at which holofield intercepts.

E.g. steps 1 - 4 are completed, step 5 would be to roll armour pen (I'm guessing on the numbers, wrong hemisphere to my rules) - the haywire states INSTEAD of performing step 5 do X, but step 5 still appears in the time line. Holofield inserts a step 4a meaning you can still roll it , before getting to the haywire effect

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes you can get cover saves vs haywire, as you gain cover for pen or glancing hits which haywire still generates.

You still have a point in time at which you will be looking to make an armour penetration roll, therefore have a point in time at which holofield intercepts.

E.g. steps 1 - 4 are completed, step 5 would be to roll armour pen (I'm guessing on the numbers, wrong hemisphere to my rules) - the haywire states INSTEAD of performing step 5 do X, but step 5 still appears in the time line. Holofield inserts a step 4a meaning you can still roll it , before getting to the haywire effect

Good illustration. Yes you can take cover saves against shooting Haywire attacks.

However, Holo-Fields are not a Saving throw, it is a special roll with its own limitations.

As you illustrated that holo-fields inserts a step into the resolving damage process that step still checks to see if it can affect the attacks that are incoming.

A haywire weapon at str 2 could only hope to glance an AV 8 vehicle if it had to roll armour pen but, instead or rolling armour pen it rolls a D6 and consults a table to see what happens.

I never said holofields is a saving throw, I was answering the query as to whether you can take a cover save against Haywire

A S2 weapon still rolls for armour penetration; it just cannot help but fail against anything AV9 or above

You dont skip the step in that instance - not according to the rules.

Here, the step "roll for armour penetration" exists. INSTEAD of, meaning *when you woudl otherwise do this step* you roll on the chart
Before you even GET to the step, Holofields kicks in

Holofield still operates against Haywire.

I would say that RAW, the holo-field does not protect against Haywire attacks.

The holo-field description explicitly states that it comes in to effect before "armor penetration" and "destroyer weapons."

If the Haywire chart was listed in the Holo-Field rule, then it would come in to play. But because the Haywire chart is neither an "armor penetration" or a "destroyer weapon attack," the holo-field is not triggered.

Holo fields trigger before you even get to trigger the haywire rule.

 Icculus wrote:
I would say that RAW, the holo-field does not protect against Haywire attacks.

The holo-field description explicitly states that it comes in to effect before "armor penetration" and "destroyer weapons."

If the Haywire chart was listed in the Holo-Field rule, then it would come in to play. But because the Haywire chart is neither an "armor penetration" or a "destroyer weapon attack," the holo-field is not triggered.

Normal Shooting (against vehicles)
1. Choose Unit to shoot
2. Choose target
3. Roll To Hit
4. Roll Armour Penetration
5. Allocate hits & Resolve Damage

Haywire Shooting (against vehicles)
1. Choose Unit to shoot
2. Choose target
3. Roll To Hit
4. Roll Haywire effect
5. Allocate hits & Resolve Damage

Holo-fields come into play in between steps 3 and 4.

I agree Haywire effects and Armor penetration rolls take place at the same time.

Does the Holo-field rule say that it comes in to play after all to-hit rolls are made? or does it say "Before making an armour penetration roll or rolling on a Destroyer Weapon Attack table for attacks against this model, the attacker must roll a D6 to see if the attack hit the target or a holo-field image."

Irrelevant. You still have that step, and you don't get to read ahead to see if you skip it after another effect should trigger.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Irrelevant. You still have that step, and you don't get to read ahead to see if you skip it after another effect should trigger.

But by saying "BEFORE" you have to read ahead. this is like giving directions to somebody trying to find your house.

"Before you get to the Church, turn right"

The problem in this instance is that there is no Church. So if there is no Church, I would never turn right. So because there is no armor penetration roll, the rule would never take place.

End of the day, if you want to protect your phantom. Ally a DA and get the 4++ bubble (which stack as holo-field is not a save so not rolling two save rolls). Then cast reroll saves on the titan and got a

Holo-field/4++ re-roll AV13 HP24 titan.

It's specifically states vs destroyer weapons. So no haywire is unaffected.

I thought the trigger for holofields was 'hits' scored.

as such it would since the haywire has to 'hit' for it to take effect.

 nutty_nutter wrote:
I thought the trigger for holofields was 'hits' scored.

as such it would since the haywire has to 'hit' for it to take effect.

Yes, the trigger wording would make all the difference. the OP quoted the rule though, and I am basing my argument on the OP's statement. So if the trigger is "hits scored" then my argument is nullified.

Icculus yet the haywire rules don't let you read ahead. RAW holo fields work. Done.

Query, is haywire a special rule that changes the nature and dynamic of armour penetration, or is haywire a rule that completely forgoes Armour penetration for its own rules?

I was under the impression it was the former, as in the user hits, then rolls to penetrate armour with the note that a 2+ causes a glancing hit and a 6 causes a penetrating hit.

BRB Haywire wrote:When a weapon with this special rule hits a vehicle, roll a D6 to determine the effect rather than rolling Armour Penetration normally:

The haywire effect replaces the Armour Pen roll.

Before the Armour Pen roll you take Holofield saves, then get to armour pen, and replace it with Hayfire.
That's how I see anyway.

 grendel083 wrote:

BRB Haywire wrote:When a weapon with this special rule hits a vehicle, roll a D6 to determine the effect rather than rolling Armour Penetration normally:

The haywire effect replaces the Armour Pen roll.

Before the Armour Pen roll you take Holofield saves, then get to armour pen, and replace it with Hayfire.
That's how I see anyway.

That's How I would play it. IT doesn't say it stops being an armour pen roll, it simply says it isn't a normal armour pen.

As above. Tht was the "reading ahead" i was talking about - you do not evoke Haywire until you reach the "Roll for Armour PEnetration "step. Holofields kicks in before you reach there

The rule is definitely ambiguous, and I see your points. But I think the way the rules are worded and how this is laid out means that Haywire is unaffected.

1. Roll to hit with weapon
2. Cover saves/invuln saves are rolled
3. Depending on the weapon, 1 of 3 things can happen
a. roll armor penetration
b. roll destroyer weapon results
c. roll haywire effects

The holo-field only lists 3a and 3b as the triggers. And yes you can read ahead, why wouldn't you be able to? Rolling armor penetration isn't a phase, like "Scout Moves" is. Rolling armor penetration is a specific result of certain types of weapons. Haywire is a weapon that does not roll armor penetration. If the holo-field was meant to be used in that time-frame then rule would read differently,

"Before determining damage results, the attacker must roll a D6 to see if the attack hit the target or a holo-field image."
Or we can change the underlined to read,
"After any cover or invulnerable saves are made"

But as it stands, the rule singles out "Armor Penetration Rolls" and "Destroyer Weapons"

So from a RAW prospective haywire gets around Holo-fields, where as from a RAI prospective they do not... Or so the argument seems to be flowing.

Haywire is supposed to behave just like a normal weapon hitting a vehicle except it glances on a 2+ and pens on a 6.

I think that haywire is basically a more powerful version of the gauss rule and trying to RAW shenanigan it so that it ignores holofields would be something that would be ruled against in the competitive scene.

Also, it doesn't mention in the rule that you roll on the table instead of rolling for armor penetration. Just that you're not rolling for armor penetration "normally". Which implies that you are still under the same restrictions.

 BLADERIKER wrote:
So from a RAW prospective haywire gets around Holo-fields, where as from a RAI prospective they do not... Or so the argument seems to be flowing.

The RaW seems to be they don't get around them.

You take the Holo saves, then roll for armour pen haywire effect.

 grendel083 wrote:

 BLADERIKER wrote:
So from a RAW prospective haywire gets around Holo-fields, where as from a RAI prospective they do not... Or so the argument seems to be flowing.

The RaW seems to be they don't get around them.

You take the Holo saves, then roll for armour pen haywire effect.

Hah. If you have to change the wording of the rule to make your point, then by definition, that is not RaW. And Armor penetration rolls are not the same thing as Haywire Effects.

 Icculus wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 BLADERIKER wrote:
So from a RAW prospective haywire gets around Holo-fields, where as from a RAI prospective they do not... Or so the argument seems to be flowing.

The RaW seems to be they don't get around them.

You take the Holo saves, then roll for armour pen haywire effect.

Hah. If you have to change the wording of the rule to make your point, then by definition, that is not RaW. And Armor penetration rolls are not the same thing as Haywire Effects.

The rule changes the wording.
You take the haywire effect roll instead of the armour pen roll. I changed nothing. The rule does. The sentence I used reflected that.

I never said they were the same. You take one instead of the other, exactly as the rule tells you to.

 Icculus wrote:
The rule is definitely ambiguous, and I see your points. But I think the way the rules are worded and how this is laid out means that Haywire is unaffected.

1. Roll to hit with weapon
2. Cover saves/invuln saves are rolled
3. Depending on the weapon, 1 of 3 things can happen
a. roll armor penetration
b. roll destroyer weapon results
c. roll haywire effects

The holo-field only lists 3a and 3b as the triggers. And yes you can read ahead, why wouldn't you be able to? Rolling armor penetration isn't a phase, like "Scout Moves" is. Rolling armor penetration is a specific result of certain types of weapons. Haywire is a weapon that does not roll armor penetration. If the holo-field was meant to be used in that time-frame then rule would read differently,

"Before determining damage results, the attacker must roll a D6 to see if the attack hit the target or a holo-field image."
Or we can change the underlined to read,
"After any cover or invulnerable saves are made"

But as it stands, the rule singles out "Armor Penetration Rolls" and "Destroyer Weapons"

Except you've misaligned Haywire as being equal to Armor Penetration. Haywire is actually subordinate to Armor Penetration. Here is why: haywire says "When a weapon with this special rule hits a vehicle, roll a D6 to determine the effect rather than rolling Armour Penetration normally." Thus the sequence is: 1) Roll to Hit 2) Roll Holofields against the number of Hits 3) Roll Armor Penetration. For every successful hit with a haywire weapon, roll on the haywire chart instead of rolling normal armor penetration (i.e. S+d6). Haywire is a special form of armor penetration and not a stand alone rule.

PanzerLeader wrote:

 Icculus wrote:
The rule is definitely ambiguous, and I see your points. But I think the way the rules are worded and how this is laid out means that Haywire is unaffected.

1. Roll to hit with weapon
2. Cover saves/invuln saves are rolled
3. Depending on the weapon, 1 of 3 things can happen
a. roll armor penetration
b. roll destroyer weapon results
c. roll haywire effects

The holo-field only lists 3a and 3b as the triggers. And yes you can read ahead, why wouldn't you be able to? Rolling armor penetration isn't a phase, like "Scout Moves" is. Rolling armor penetration is a specific result of certain types of weapons. Haywire is a weapon that does not roll armor penetration. If the holo-field was meant to be used in that time-frame then rule would read differently,

"Before determining damage results, the attacker must roll a D6 to see if the attack hit the target or a holo-field image."
Or we can change the underlined to read,
"After any cover or invulnerable saves are made"

But as it stands, the rule singles out "Armor Penetration Rolls" and "Destroyer Weapons"

Except you've misaligned Haywire as being equal to Armor Penetration. Haywire is actually subordinate to Armor Penetration. Here is why: haywire says "When a weapon with this special rule hits a vehicle, roll a D6 to determine the effect rather than rolling Armour Penetration normally." Thus the sequence is: 1) Roll to Hit 2) Roll Holofields against the number of Hits 3) Roll Armor Penetration. For every successful hit with a haywire weapon, roll on the haywire chart instead of rolling normal armor penetration (i.e. S+d6). Haywire is a special form of armor penetration and not a stand alone rule.

Now this is the meat of the problem and is bein discussed in another thread via tank-hunters and haywire. So is haywire a form of armor penetration or is it it's own rule. I'm under the impression that haywire is completely separate from armor penetration. Because the rule says instead of rolling armor penetration.