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Hi Dakka, I'm interested in starting to play warmachine and hordes, and I'm undecided on my first army. I usually like the bad guy armies in warhammer and 40k (dark elves and tyranids respectively). I like how crux and legion of everblight look, but unsure of the different play styles of then. Any suggestions?

Really it comes down to personal preference! Which army do you like the models of the best? Have the read up on the fluff/background of them? The is really no army that is better than the other, just so you know. They all have there strengths!

I just started warmachine a few weeks ago and its the best choice ever. Only played a handful of games with my Khador battlebox but im already hooked haha!! Welcome to the hobby!!

Ok, "bad guys"! That's something to work with and you're already set your eyes on a couple of likely candidates! Sadly, this isn't like GWs games, so we can't tell you "these handle like Dark Elves", 'cause I can see Khador Kayazy models being very Dark Elven but if you pick the faction up on those premises you're going to blame me for it.

Warmahordes isn't a game where an army has a very obvious theme when it comes to capabilities, it's a game where you'll find that you get units that typically have things in common but inter-faction units will be diverse. Khador, for instance, will feel a bit slow until you notice what I'd like to call "Aaaaah MOTHERLAND! syndrome" which is essentially they suddenly get very fast, very quick, in a burst of magic and inspirational speeches. Retribution is going to feel like a faction that's trying it's best to be sneaky without actually being sneaky... if that makes sense. And the list goes on, but I'm a newbie as well and will remain so for a long time - hope you found this informational enough anyway

Give the more experienced guys a bit more to work with. Do you like loads of soldiers on the board? Do you have an aversion to plastic/metal models? Do you prefer an army on the cheap or are you looking for a whatever-it-costs netlist? Is spellslinging your thing? Would you like big stompies or just plain murder?

You see, what you are really after is the correct unit choices and warnoun choices within the faction you like the aesthetic of.

I"m also rather new to warmachine but I play Cygnar. I suppose I can help seeing as how I recently went through picking an army. First you need to decide whether you like fury or focus better and pick your system. That I can't help at all with as I am incompetent with fury. I can however give a general idea of the two armies you voiced interest in.

Cryx is an army that generally likes lots of cheap infantry and de-buffs to your opponents.

Legion from what I've heard is a bit of a glass cannon, with beasts that can deal quite a bit of damage but aren't as durable. They also have excellent Fury management in the shepherd solo.

Khador is also kind of a bad guy faction, being that they're basically the USSR. They have durable high cost warjacks and pretty good infantry in the winter guard. It should be noted that Khador isn't amazing at running almost all jacks, as their jacks cost lots of points. It's explained in the fluff that they have a lack of cortexes and make durable 'jacks instead.

Hope this helps a bit, but all of the factions are balanced and you'll probably enjoy any army you pick. Also try battlecollege.com for a good idea of each army.

Wow, appreciate the well thought up and descriptive posts. I see that list building is a bit more flexible then what I'm used too. I would prefer a smaller model count, at least in the beginning, so maybe Khador would be a good choice in the beginning.

Ozma2501 wrote:
Wow, appreciate the well thought up and descriptive posts. I see that list building is a bit more flexible then what I'm used too. I would prefer a smaller model count, at least in the beginning, so maybe Khador would be a good choice in the beginning.

Khador is one of the highest model count armies in the game. It's an army that relies heavily on large numbers of troops. Think footslogging IG as the closest comparsion, though with a lot more bite to their attacks. They typically field only 1 'Jack, sometimes two.

For a low model count army, you typically want to look a Hordes. Particularly Legion of Everblight but also Skrone and Circle.

Cygnar can also do some rather low-model count armies, and Protectorate can mostly do to it as well.

Cryx, Trollbloods, Khador, Mercs and Retribution are typically poor choices for low model count. Khador most of all.

While factions are somewhat flexible in the playstyles they have, there is an overarching theme and limitations to each. It's hard to give an analogue in 40k, tbh.

Skorne can be bad guys...

Enslaving and Pillaging Persian/Chinese styled warriors with giant smashy elephants.

Plus they can play low model count very well, either with beasts (Morghoul or Dominar butterpants...er I mean Rashteth) or with heavy infantry (Xerxies). They can run large model counts too in the same faction (Zaal) so you don't even have to go out of faction to get different play styles!

Interesting takes on khador. They do not usually run that many more models than other war machine armies. They are infantry focused but you will only see a single "cheap infantry" which is the winter guard. All their other infantry options are either average cost (5/8) or higher (6/9). They tend to field a larger number of solos and specialist troops that can cost anywhere from 2 to 5pts which will eat up a lot of points for the number of models. You could probably expect most 35pt khador lists to have around 25-35 infantry models which you can expect to pay roughly 150-200$ for. This is a relatively high model count in this game, not even close to the model count in war hammer. Khador jacks cost just as much as other factions' heavy jacks but khador only makes heavy jacks while all other factions havelight jacks that are smaller and a little cheaper. Khador's cheapest is 6pts while many other factions have lights that get down to 4. But all other factions have similar cost on their heavies compared to Khador's.

Cryx and legion are probably the only factions that can be considered "evil" but there really is no evil faction. There is no faction that simply wants to take over the world, the iron kingdom is not that simple. The leader of cryx (called Toruk the Dragon father) is simply trying to find and consume his offspring that he regrettably created. Turning the living into his undead warriors is a gift of immortality in his eyes. Ever blight is one of his offspring and he infused a race of elves (the nyss) with his power in order to fight off Toruk and defeat the other dragons. From khador's perspective, they are simply trying to reclaim the lands that were stolen from them by the weakling southerners after the Orgoth invasion. Likewise, the only factions that could possibly be considered "good" would be some of the mercenary groups like Label and Rhul...and maybe Trollbloods. They seem have been oppressed by everyone else for a long time.

Ozma2501 wrote:
Hi Dakka, I'm interested in starting to play warmachine and hordes, and I'm undecided on my first army. I usually like the bad guy armies in warhammer and 40k (dark elves and tyranids respectively). I like how crux and legion of everblight look, but unsure of the different play styles of then. Any suggestions?

I never really played WFB, but I did play 40K for a long time. I think you are on the right path with Cryx and Legion. If you like Dark Eldar/Eldar then Cryx has some similarities as they are fast and have a variety of really good troops. However, little to no ranged game. Legion is often a bit more beast heavy and have much better options ranged or melee. They tend to be fast. If you like to play with a lot of Tyranid MCs then you might like a beast heavy hordes list.

But as said before there are no perfect analogies. Warmachine really is a much different game. Rules are different, building a list is different, tactics are different, etc. IMO the best way to get started is to choose a faction that you think you will like. Either from the models or fluff or whatever and try it out with battlebox and small points games. If you start to feel a different faction would be better then it is really easy to switch at that point and you don't have that much invested. Besides, pretty much everyone that I know who plays the game with any sort of regularity has at least two armies. I have 5 and my brother has 6 and parts of one or two more. My other main friend who plays has 2 and is starting up a third. A small army isn't that much to invest in. And if you have no interest in an army you can probably sell it or use it as a learning army to get new people to play.

 dementedwombat wrote:
Skorne can be bad guys...

Enslaving and Pillaging Persian/Chinese styled warriors with giant smashy elephants.

Plus they can play low model count very well, either with beasts (Morghoul or Dominar butterpants...er I mean Rashteth) or with heavy infantry (Xerxies). They can run large model counts too in the same faction (Zaal) so you don't even have to go out of faction to get different play styles!

I forgot Skorne in my post, but those guys are definitely bad guys and if you want low model count Hordes is better anyway since you need beasts to generate focus, and it isn't uncommon to see 3-4 beasts in a hordes army as opposed to 2-3 jacks in warmachine and 3 is pushing it IMO.

Again thanks for the replies gents. As was said these starter sets are not a terribly large investment. I just ordered the cryx box for 38 shipped from amazon. I like the spikey and dread look if the warjacks and I can certainly accept the skeleton infantry units.

Can't say I blame you too much. I liked everything about Cryx until I got a look at those light warjacks of theirs. Stupid chicken-bots... shame that they are the only jacks you'll ever run pretty much unless you pick up Mortenabra. Cryx is another faction that loves their infantry and hates their jacks. They put up with their light jacks because they're cheep and have arc nodes attached.

Cryx infantry is generally more efficient to run but you can easily add a heavy like Deathjack or Nightmare to alot of casters and still be competitive.

Nightmare has won me alot of games in my pDenny list.

 dementedwombat wrote:
Can't say I blame you too much. I liked everything about Cryx until I got a look at those light warjacks of theirs. Stupid chicken-bots... shame that they are the only jacks you'll ever run pretty much unless you pick up Mortenabra. Cryx is another faction that loves their infantry and hates their jacks. They put up with their light jacks because they're cheep and have arc nodes attached.

Yeah, the thing about Cryx is that they can still actually run their jacks if they want to, unlike Khador (where most casters have real trouble running more than one jack), especially if they get one or two of the self sufficient ones. A heavy, be it nightmare, deathjack, a seether or whatever, can always be put in reasonably easily, and two focus efficient heavies, while not always optimal, can still work well for them.

Why not Circle? They're definitely pretty evil.

Also, I would say you can tailor a bit to fit which faction you like the look of most. Every faction has a certain "evil" quality about it.

Also, Tyranids and Legion may look similar, but they're playstyles are very different.

You'll have to educate me on circle of orboros. I figured since they were Druids they'd be good guys.

Ozma2501 wrote:
You'll have to educate me on circle of orboros. I figured since they were Druids they'd be good guys.

mwahahaha! No.

Want to destroy civilization, steal babies, human sacrifice, converting people into werewolves and causing them to lose their minds, sacrificing anything and everything to accomplish their goals, including each other and dealing with heart eating (still beating is best) followers of the Wurm (who is a pretty bad guy). Lots and lots of blood magic.

Yes they think they are saving the world, but it is by any means necessary. And yes, some have more morals than others, but even then...

I have to give PP a lot of credit. The factions are far from black and white. They are all pretty much shades of gray and terms like good or bad really just depend on your perspective. But on the flip side there isn't just complete and utter bloodlust to kill everyone else like in 40K. Politics and reality do enter play and factions and people in factions will work together for a common goal, if only temporarily. All in all I find it much more interesting and dynamic than 40K fluff. Oh and each faction has at least two groups working against each other for power. So each faction isn't even all working together all the time.

Ozma2501 wrote:
You'll have to educate me on circle of orboros. I figured since they were Druids they'd be good guys.

Well, yes and no, it depends who you ask. They're main "deity" as such is the Devourer Wurm, a god of chaos and destruction (and opposed to Menoth, Creator of Man and Civilization), but there's two factions in that. Firstly, there's a faction that doesn't actually worship the Wurm, but is trying to prevent the Wurm from turning it's attention from it's war against Menoth in Urcaen (the afterlife), because they believe if too much civilization spreads, and too many ley-lines destroyed the Wurm could turn it's attention to Caen (the IK world) and bring about the apocalypse. The methods they use to try to stop progress and protect ley-lines would generally get them classified as terrorists, being generally pretty destructive, but that's by-the-by. The other faction of Circle actually does worship the Wurm, and wants to bring about that apocalypse - they're the more evil/dangerous ones.

All that said, they're not an out-and-out evil faction (like Legion, Cryx, or even Skorne really), but they can be evil in their goals, or in how they accomplish their goals. Their models certainly don't look evil either, with a few exceptions (gallows grove, for example), more chaotic/barbarian, so if you're wanting evil looking, possibly one of the other factions is better for you.

On evil factions in general:

Legion and Cryx are of the far ambiguous less destroy/conquer/consume/end-the-world/twirl-moustaches "definitely super-duper extra evil", camp. The Skorne are largely a big camp of nasty too, but they've at least got (a messed up), cultural context to take it in.

Protectorate of Menoth is ruled by brutally harsh laws, and many of the means of enforcement would fall nothing short of "Crimes against humanity" in a modern context. That said the grievances that led to the current state of affairs are mostly fair ones, and Cygnar shares much of the blame for the current state of affairs in the territory. The protectorate has some very good people working in it, even at high levels of leadership. It also has some freaking psychopaths in power too. In general you have to take the actors in the protectorate on an individual basis. The bad defintily outweight the good here, and even the good are often required by faith be at minimum complacent in some real bad gak.

The PoM at worst is Lawful Neutral with a little Lawful Evil.

Emphasis on the Lawful part. The True Law is to be upheld above all, how that law is enforced is up to the enforcers Menoth has chosen.


To clarify the Protectorates actions. They aren't on a crusade of genocide against any human that worships Morrow. They only want the worshipers of Morrow to acknowledge the supremacy of Menoth over Morrow, they could still follow him as long as they are properly venerating of Menoth.

Blasphemy is not tolerated and its harshly enforced, but they aren't going around wracking everyone who mispronounces a prayer.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The PoM at worst is Lawful Neutral with a little Lawful Evil.

Emphasis on the Lawful part. The True Law is to be upheld above all, how that law is enforced is up to the enforcers Menoth has chosen.


To clarify the Protectorates actions. They aren't on a crusade of genocide against any human that worships Morrow. They only want the worshipers of Morrow to acknowledge the supremacy of Menoth over Morrow, they could still follow him as long as they are properly venerating of Menoth.

Blasphemy is not tolerated and its harshly enforced, but they aren't going around wracking everyone who mispronounces a prayer.

They have a branch of the military whose job was originally to go around the country, lock those who demonstrate a lack of faith inside their homes and then set those homes on fire. This is a fully developed branch of their hierarchy and a unit in the book.

One of the top leaders of their biggest knightly order has so much fun killing civilians, he's always chomping at the bit to find a way to run someone down with with his flail.

They've readily employed kidnapping and slavery on a wide-scale basis for the production of their warjacks.

Squads of secret police patrol the major cities to kidnap any dissenters for torture and/or execution.

Members of the ruling class and agents have the right to summarily execute any citizen at any time, without need to provide justification.. and they exercise this right.

The head of the country authorized the creation of a 1000+ strong death squad, headed by man tha thoroughly enjoys the act killing to roam their occupied territory and kill persons or groups he hasn't specifically called out for protection.


Certainly they're willing to tolerate properly-subjugated morrowans, and aren't slaughtering entire populations for minor infractions (well, I bet gravus would do it). That doesn't mean the theocracy isn't inhumanly brutal on the whole.

Hey, if Menoth wills it...

Ozma2501 wrote:
Again thanks for the replies gents. As was said these starter sets are not a terribly large investment. I just ordered the cryx box for 38 shipped from amazon. I like the spikey and dread look if the warjacks and I can certainly accept the skeleton infantry units.

Cryx is a pretty interesting army and i hope you enjoy them. Once you're settled into the hobby I highly recommend getting your faction's tokens (I've been using glass beads as focus and larger ones to write my upkeeps on and it gets pretty annoying.) as well as a set of templates or the rulebook which I think comes with ones you can scan and print. Best of luck with your new undead, pointy, morally ambiguous ball of acid, or you can just call them Cryx. Your pick.

Hey, Cryx isn't morally ambiguous! We're very clearly Chaotic Neutral. I mean, hasn't every parent just wanted to subjugate an entire continent to further the goal of consuming his children?

I would love to hear infernos justification for a morally ambiguous Cryx


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Maddermax wrote:

Ozma2501 wrote:
You'll have to educate me on circle of orboros. I figured since they were Druids they'd be good guys.

Well, yes and no, it depends who you ask. They're main "deity" as such is the Devourer Wurm, a god of chaos and destruction (and opposed to Menoth, Creator of Man and Civilization), but there's two factions in that. Firstly, there's a faction that doesn't actually worship the Wurm, but is trying to prevent the Wurm from turning it's attention from it's war against Menoth in Urcaen (the afterlife), because they believe if too much civilization spreads, and too many ley-lines destroyed the Wurm could turn it's attention to Caen (the IK world) and bring about the apocalypse. The methods they use to try to stop progress and protect ley-lines would generally get them classified as terrorists, being generally pretty destructive, but that's by-the-by. The other faction of Circle actually does worship the Wurm, and wants to bring about that apocalypse - they're the more evil/dangerous ones.

All that said, they're not an out-and-out evil faction (like Legion, Cryx, or even Skorne really), but they can be evil in their goals, or in how they accomplish their goals. Their models certainly don't look evil either, with a few exceptions (gallows grove, for example), more chaotic/barbarian, so if you're wanting evil looking, possibly one of the other factions is better for you.

Actually, the druids do not worship the devourer wurm. The tharn do and they are manipulated by the druids into doing their dirty work. The druids are more aligned with dhunian worship though not implicitly religious. They are more concerned with the balace of the world. They view dieties more in a practical light. To them menoth was made by dhunia to hunt the wurm. All of them are equally important to maintain the hunt as long as possible which in turn allows humanity to exist. They could be more accuratley be summed as the greater good by any means necessary.

Convergence of Cyriss isn't morally ambiguous at all

The soul = perfection
The flesh = inconvenience
The goddess = truth

All hail the clockwork maiden. Align the nodes for her inevitable manifestation.

Our victory is tautological.

(dang, I rp a cyriss fanatic far too well. I might have a problem)

 Surtur wrote:

Actually, the druids do not worship the devourer wurm. The tharn do and they are manipulated by the druids into doing their dirty work. ...

Technically the druids of the Circle worships no one. But you're right that most the worshippers are the Tharn. Even Krueger, who does go about doing the heart-eating and murderating, is a realist on the whole relationship thing and goals of the organization.

 Surtur wrote:
... The druids are more aligned with dhunian worship though not implicitly religious. They are more concerned with the balace of the world. They view dieties more in a practical light. To them menoth was made by dhunia to hunt the wurm. All of them are equally important to maintain the hunt as long as possible which in turn allows humanity to exist. They could be more accuratley be summed as the greater good by any means necessary.

Not quite. Circle tap into Orboros, of which the Wurm is its sapient aspect. Dhunia and Orboros are together kind of sides of the same totality of Caen, or Dhunia and the Wurm are a subset of Orboros. There's ome overlap, but druids tap into aspects of Orboros: beasts, stone and storm. Orboros is kind of the "active" forces of Caen: weather, natural disasters, predation, struggle of life and so on.

A Dhunian priest often taps into the lifeblood of the world. It often has healing, harmony with spirits, emphasis on the seasons and so on. A druid taps into the more primal and violent aspects of nature. He directs laylines, brings storms, controls the desert, and dominates violent beasts. There is some overlap with naturla magics, cycles and all that, but Circle is much more in tune with the stuff that fuels the Devourer's chaos. In the old d20 system the Druid alignment restriction was any non-Lawful, rather than normal D&D Druid Neutral, for an idea of things there.

This is also shown a bit in the supernatural entities they work with. Constructs you see there made of stone and wood? They require blood sacrifice of sapient beings in order to create. The bigger and more complicated, the more they need. Warpwolves are controllable due to their relationship with the Wurm. Satyrs, arguses, griffons and goraxes are used because they also have a tie to the violence aspects of nature. Even their healer warlock (Morvahna) is about controlling the balance of life and death, less about some vitalist preservation of life itself. Gallows Groves are an outgrowth of the predatory nature of the Wurm even effecting plants. The Circle makes dealings with beings like the Lord of the Feast and the Treee of Fate, which are straight-up avatars of the Wurm on Caen.

That druids can be mistaken as Dhunia priests is how they get some non-human species to follow them, like farrow, gobbers, and the like. But a more close example of Dhunia worship is in the Trollblood stuff, which is a lot more about harmony, lifeblood and the elements in more "pure" form than the Circle tendancy towards "breaking gak".

And stuff.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The PoM at worst is Lawful Neutral with a little Lawful Evil.

Emphasis on the Lawful part. The True Law is to be upheld above all, how that law is enforced is up to the enforcers Menoth has chosen.


To clarify the Protectorates actions. They aren't on a crusade of genocide against any human that worships Morrow. They only want the worshipers of Morrow to acknowledge the supremacy of Menoth over Morrow, they could still follow him as long as they are properly venerating of Menoth.

Blasphemy is not tolerated and its harshly enforced, but they aren't going around wracking everyone who mispronounces a prayer.

Lawfulness had absolutely nothing to do with Good or evil. Hitler was quite lawful himself as well. If the Law and rules you are following are inherently evil or interpreted in an evil way they are still evil. POM are the epitome of religious zealots. Whether they are evil or not depends on if you believe the same things they do or not. There are also plenty of them who use the church/religion as a political means to power.

IMO, POM is the most evil of the factions because of their duplicity and supposed adherence to a code that supposedly wants to better and promote humanity. At least Cryx and Legion make no bones about what they are going to do to you if you get in their way.