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 Sparkadia wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
For starters, I look awful in tinfoil hats

For some reason this seemed quotable.

On topic though, I'm with Zion. I don't think Superheavies should be in 40K at all, and if you're enough of a gakbag to bring one then you should give your opponent forewarning. It's only fair. Nobody I know would even think of playing one without telling their opponents, because games are supposed to be enjoyable for both parties. Who likes crushing their friends?

I don't play in a tournament setting though, so I can't speak for the hardcore/angry/egotistical crowd. Maybe that is their jam.

Im sure that those that play tourneys love to be called angry and egotistical.

side note from GW TAC style lists now need to allow for superheavies, or you know those that buy all those other models buy one yourself... its not like the average ones are crazily expensive. something that amazes me is that there is people who go out, buy a set list and expect it to last them years no sorry the game evolves and your armies and models will need to allow for that. because if all you had was a space wolf list that relied on long fang spam, your now no longer a contender etc etc evolve with the game or become redundant. hell id welcome a game against a superheavy and not having one.. changes the dynamic of how you play. and sure you may lose but go down fighting, and look for new stratagies, is no different to a new codex or new models in existing codex's...

and you know why people dont announce the SHV to their opponent? the tears of rage that it could be there.... because of this stupid misconception that they are OP and all of the other bollox about them, so what happens people refuse to play point blank because of them, dont even want to know the rules. just NOPE NOT AGAINST TAHT THING, look at the size of it.... but when you look at id say MOST, there is a couple i do believe there is reasonable reservations against (reaver, revenant, warhound) are 3 outside of them.... most are very expensive and about the same value as taking say 4predators = 1 baneblade, in output, yet the BB has less HP than 4 preds. the more awareness people have of these models, their rules, capabiliteis and points costs i think the fear and hysteria of them will diminish greatly.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Sparkadia wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
For starters, I look awful in tinfoil hats

For some reason this seemed quotable.

On topic though, I'm with Zion. I don't think Superheavies should be in 40K at all, and if you're enough of a gakbag to bring one then you should give your opponent forewarning. It's only fair. Nobody I know would even think of playing one without telling their opponents, because games are supposed to be enjoyable for both parties. Who likes crushing their friends?

I don't play in a tournament setting though, so I can't speak for the hardcore/angry/egotistical crowd. Maybe that is their jam.

I think people misunderstand, I think EVERYTHING belongs in 40k, but people need to be respectful enough of each other's time to warn them when they're bringing something like a Super Heavy in a list. I know what Peregrine likes to say that I've "been warned" but I still want enough respect out of my opponent to tell me about it before we set the table up, get everything ready and then he slaps it on the table, maybe even ask me if I'll need to change things to handle the new threat because my pre-drafted list was made for a different meta that largely involved dealing with gunlines.

I just don't want to feel like my time has been wasted, and I don't think anyone else does either.

Precisely.

A TAC list doesn't really stand much of a chance at beating a Superheavy. Some of them are far more unreasonable than others - say the Baneblade vs the Revenant - but in either case I think common courteousy should be given to your opponent with a heads up of "Hey mate, I'll be bringing [Superheavy X], so that's a thing. It's got like, guns are stuff. Sooo... look out for that one"

Saying that you've got warning for it is silly. the fact you know it is legal doesn't mean you built your list around destroying one. That's like saying that you were warned other motorists were on the road, so you should have been prepared to be T-boned.

Slamming something like that down with no warning, wearing a gak-eating grin will win you no friends. Just sayin', if it was me, I'd warn you (not that I'd ever use a Superheavy outside of a Baneblade, they're just so iconic!)





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ausYenLoWang wrote:

 Sparkadia wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
For starters, I look awful in tinfoil hats

For some reason this seemed quotable.

On topic though, I'm with Zion. I don't think Superheavies should be in 40K at all, and if you're enough of a gakbag to bring one then you should give your opponent forewarning. It's only fair. Nobody I know would even think of playing one without telling their opponents, because games are supposed to be enjoyable for both parties. Who likes crushing their friends?

I don't play in a tournament setting though, so I can't speak for the hardcore/angry/egotistical crowd. Maybe that is their jam.

Im sure that those that play tourneys love to be called angry and egotistical.

To me that seems like the only reason you'd slap a superheavy down without telling your opponent, so you can swing your honking big phallic model in their faces as they worship around your feet.

There is some hyperbole here. But that is how I view not warning someone that you're bringing a potentially gamebreaking war machine.

Spark i agree to a point, but again you wont be seeing revenants or reaves in sub 2500 pt games... they are just too expensive, unless thats ALL you field... its the more basic 500pt type ones you will see and none of them are devastating... though again i will allow a WarHound for its cost is rough buuut how many people actually have them...

i have this kind of stuff and id lend a chassis to someone to proxy as whatever if they wanted, im NOT going to drop a reaver on someone and be like LOL reaver + cultists + lord 1850 lets go... thats bs... but id love to play my thunderhawk or the SH tanks i have, they arent the devastating over the topness that it seems MOST people seem to think ALL of them are... they just arent that bad, but the perception is, that they are ALL 500 pt reaver titans with 10 D weapons etc etc BAN BAN BAN... and that sadly isnt the case. a normal ork army can deal with baneblades and equivilants and thats ORKS..... what can SM, or TAU do to them.... its crazy..

i would say that people need to start to see these things in action rather than seeing internet hysteria about them and realise, oh so its not totally BS and then make opinions.

You know I keep seeing the same argument in these therads....

"it's not fair to play superheavies because they can stomp my army, you need to think of the other player"

The problem is you assume the guy with the superheavy is automaically TFG, so since we seem to enjoy using insane hypotheticals in this thread here's one in defense of superheavies....

So you have a guy named Bob, Bob fething loves him some Titans. Hell he still has his epic army, but games have gotten slow so Bob gave it up for a 40k army, let's say Space Marines. So Bob hears about Escalation and gets so pysched, he runs out and scrapes some pennies together to buy a Warhound, after dutifully assembling it and painting it he grabs his copy of Escalation and heads down to the local FLGS for some gaming. But UHOHHH!! Bob has a superheavy so Phil isn't playing Nids versus TFG, Jimmy isn't fielding his Triptide list versus that OP bs "cause its not gonna be in any tournaments anytime soon", in fact noone is playing against his Warhound because the FLGS has a new "house rule" saying superheavies are stupid and they aren't playing them.

Kinda sucks too be Bob huh?

What I'm saying is Superheavies are legal now, you have to prepare just like you would for anything else making a blanket rule banning them is just as ridiculous as banning Tau or Inquisitors..... Now of course people are going to be lame and pull some bs like a Warhound crammed into a 1000 point list or something... But that is just as likely to happen as a screamerstar or Triptide or 4 Heldrakes or whatever else bs game breaking combo is the flavor of the month. Honestly variety is not a bad thing, I'd kill for a Chaos Knight, and if this means we get more fancy Epic upgraded to 40k goodness I'm all for it, hell give me 4 movable tables and a 10ft by 20ft gaming space and release Codex: Titans, I'll gladly line up a couple hundred of my Chaos Marines just to see how long they last, afterall its just a game of toy soldiers.

 ausYenLoWang wrote:
Spark i agree to a point, but again you wont be seeing revenants or reaves in sub 2500 pt games... they are just too expensive, unless thats ALL you field... its the more basic 500pt type ones you will see and none of them are devastating... though again i will allow a WarHound for its cost is rough buuut how many people actually have them...

i have this kind of stuff and id lend a chassis to someone to proxy as whatever if they wanted, im NOT going to drop a reaver on someone and be like LOL reaver + cultists + lord 1850 lets go... thats bs... but id love to play my thunderhawk or the SH tanks i have, they arent the devastating over the topness that it seems MOST people seem to think ALL of them are... they just arent that bad, but the perception is, that they are ALL 500 pt reaver titans with 10 D weapons etc etc BAN BAN BAN... and that sadly isnt the case. a normal ork army can deal with baneblades and equivilants and thats ORKS..... what can SM, or TAU do to them.... its crazy..

i would say that people need to start to see these things in action rather than seeing internet hysteria about them and realise, oh so its not totally BS and then make opinions.

And I'd be fine with anyone playing them, I just think they should be nice enough to warn their opponent. I don't like Superheavies, but I get that there are people who do. I just think fair warning is due.

 Sparkadia wrote:

 ausYenLoWang wrote:
Spark i agree to a point, but again you wont be seeing revenants or reaves in sub 2500 pt games... they are just too expensive, unless thats ALL you field... its the more basic 500pt type ones you will see and none of them are devastating... though again i will allow a WarHound for its cost is rough buuut how many people actually have them...

i have this kind of stuff and id lend a chassis to someone to proxy as whatever if they wanted, im NOT going to drop a reaver on someone and be like LOL reaver + cultists + lord 1850 lets go... thats bs... but id love to play my thunderhawk or the SH tanks i have, they arent the devastating over the topness that it seems MOST people seem to think ALL of them are... they just arent that bad, but the perception is, that they are ALL 500 pt reaver titans with 10 D weapons etc etc BAN BAN BAN... and that sadly isnt the case. a normal ork army can deal with baneblades and equivilants and thats ORKS..... what can SM, or TAU do to them.... its crazy..

i would say that people need to start to see these things in action rather than seeing internet hysteria about them and realise, oh so its not totally BS and then make opinions.

And I'd be fine with anyone playing them, I just think they should be nice enough to warn their opponent. I don't like Superheavies, but I get that there are people who do. I just think fair warning is due.

and its not that i dont mind the notion of warning people, there is just a group and you can see it here on dakka that throws up the hate flag at the mention of them, the refusal to play and the other complaining... also list tailoring then tends to ensue, because if you know your facing a SH you arent going to bring a list you normally wpoul youll tailor it to deal with the SH... it happens... ALOT

edited wrong post

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Kain wrote:
The current problem with superheavies is that some armies have endless options for them, many of them quite good, while others have very few, which may all just suck.

The DEldar don't even get any superheavies, the Daemons and Tyranids only get GCs (and mediocre GCs at that), the Necrons and Tau are a tad starved for choices but at least have powerful options, while Imperial factions, the CSMs, the Eldar, and the Orks all have tons of things to choose from.

What FW and GW need to do is try and make it so that every faction has about as many choices as Imperial armies do with regards to lords of war/knights (with the same applying to out of codex units/mini-lists from slates, FW, and supplements) and do more to fix the imbalance between GCs and SHVs.

I mean, a generic Iron hands/Clan Chapter master can be easily built to take on and destroy a Heirodule bio-titan for less than half the points while a Revenant may take an entire army to beat down.

GW's plan clearly will introduce Super Heavies (and aircraft, and forts) for all armies as they go along, though it may take time.

I hope they do it soon because right now at least three armies have "get fethed" for good superheavies (DEldar, Daemons, and Tyranids).

Kain just to ask, dont D-Eldar get the eldar titans etc?

Since they are supposedly organised as a fast, light raiding force, it seems unlikely.

Just had a look, the escalation book gives both eldar dark eldar the same titans/superheavies etc.

but yeah :(

 Sparkadia wrote:
A TAC list doesn't really stand much of a chance at beating a Superheavy.

Then it isn't a TAC list. TAC means "take all comers", not "take most comers, except the ones that bring something I don't want to be prepared to face".

That is just laziness and lack of respect for the fluff.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
That is just laziness and lack of respect for the fluff.

maybe but the revenants etc are bloody FAST... of all the titans easily the fastest of them and one of the nastiest as well..

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sparkadia wrote:
A TAC list doesn't really stand much of a chance at beating a Superheavy.

Then it isn't a TAC list. TAC means "take all comers", not "take most comers, except the ones that bring something I don't want to be prepared to face".

TAC these days is becoming meaningless. The game is spread too thin, like butter over too much bread. TAC these days mostly means "I'm an uber gunline and don't care what you bring" or "I tried to build a list that can deal with too many different opponents thus have no coherency or strength to deal with anything other than another army that is also spread too thin".

It seems these days in a lot of metas you go a long way simply by NOT bringing a TAC list and instead going highly focused so that none of the TAC armies can actually deal with all the eggs you put in a single basket, right up until you hit someone who also bought an eggs in one basket list that also happens to be the rock to your scissors.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sparkadia wrote:
A TAC list doesn't really stand much of a chance at beating a Superheavy.

Then it isn't a TAC list. TAC means "take all comers", not "take most comers, except the ones that bring something I don't want to be prepared to face".

Did we forget the article where Jervis said there shouldn't be a TAC army at all, but it's okay to keep trying to find the golden goose anyways?

Are people supposed only to do what Jervis tells us?

Would like to field a Stormlord and three Nephilims With Mega bolters for my Dark angels.

A superheavy is just a vehicle with alot of Hull Points.

Its not like they have over 14 armor and people have been dealing with land raiders for how long? I would not tell my opponent I'm bringing a superheavy because list tailoring. If anything i would find an apponent at the store and at the last moment I would say that my list has a superheavy in it. If that person then goes "Well I need to change my list a little." then you know they are list tailoring. Its a big tank with a big weapon that people need to learn to deal with. And everytime someone refuses to play against superheavies they are shooting themselves in the foot because they will never learn how to beat it if they never play against it (either that or they are waiting for the internet to tell them how to beat it in which case they have no brains of their own).

A TAC list means ALL. If you don't account for superheavies then it isn't TAC. This is why I said that maybe we need more than 2,000 points because people are going to need those extra points to throw in stuff in case of titan. But everyone seems to be stuck in their old ways and unwilling to adapt. I never got warning I was facing 3 riptides with Eldar allies using a wraithknight. Or 3 Dreadknights when they came out. You don't need to give warning for the Imperial Knight Titan. Why should any other model be that way? I shouldn't have to ask "Mother may I?" when i want to use a model that I own.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sparkadia wrote:
A TAC list doesn't really stand much of a chance at beating a Superheavy.

Then it isn't a TAC list. TAC means "take all comers", not "take most comers, except the ones that bring something I don't want to be prepared to face".

I like it. They don't WANT to to be prepared to face it. Not that they can't. They don't want to. Those people are in for a rude awakening. Also most superheavies cost less than 3 riptides (except for the Tau superheavies) so obviously people can afford them. There will be 2 kinds of people in the future of 40k. Those with rose tinted glasses with their strictly 2000 points of models that refuse to play any kind of superheavy and those who adapted and are still having fun playing games.

It's not entirely easy to have a single list that can deal with both Tau firebase lists, green tides, Wraithwing, podded alphastrike lists AND revdar lists.

TAC is almost impossible.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Are people supposed only to do what Jervis tells us?

I think the point is the game designers for whatever stupid reason are actively trying to make TAC lists impractical, instead leaning towards the spammy/one-hit-wonder/rock-paper-scissors lists.

It isn't a deliberate design decision. It is a side effect of writing rules to support new types of units in the game in order to sell the models.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sparkadia wrote:
A TAC list doesn't really stand much of a chance at beating a Superheavy.

Then it isn't a TAC list. TAC means "take all comers", not "take most comers, except the ones that bring something I don't want to be prepared to face".

But there is nothing a TAC IG army can bring to take down a raver. Unless it specialy tailors to beat one . Tailoring is not accepted here , but lets say someone does it and his army book has the options that can survive those 4 D templates , if he goes first. Cool , not to be able to go it , he needs to go to his store and buy all those autocannons he never wanted and will never use against anything other this one army that uses an eldar titan .

Its not like they have over 14 armor and people have been dealing with land raiders for how long? I would not tell my opponent I'm bringing a superheavy because list tailoring.

A LR is not going to be as manuverable as a raver , He won't have a +4 save , even against D weapons and if you play without escalation there will be no void bunkers to make it even tougher . normaly at 1500pts the ravers are taken with 1-2 bunkers and the +4inv fortification to give it two ++4 "saves". unless someone has an army that has a ton of str 7-8 shoting it does not go down fast enough , it is that much resilient and destructive.
At the same time if you take two LR and a squad of marines with the same fortification , it is not even half as destructive.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Are people supposed only to do what Jervis tells us?

I think the point is the game designers for whatever stupid reason are actively trying to make TAC lists impractical, instead leaning towards the spammy/one-hit-wonder/rock-paper-scissors lists.

Basically. When the dev team is saying that TAC should be a wild goose chance, and come out with more and more one-trick rock/paper/scissors units AND try to make people think the game size should be huge (which conveniently equates to buying more gak from them), I consider it a problem.

^ Hear hear, intentional bad game design is not something I can get behind.

So really what i am hearing is not complaining about super heavies but Revdar instead. You do realize that all eldar superheavies have the same titan holo fields (even the scorpion tank). I have no issues killing a warhound with non superheavies. So quit crying and do some theory crafting instead of waiting for the internet to figure it out for you you lazy gamers.

yeah , but that is FW and FW is not legal here . Am talking about escalation units which are listed in the escalation codex.

Basically. When the dev team is saying that TAC should be a wild goose chance, and come out with more and more one-trick rock/paper/scissors units AND try to make people think the game size should be huge (which conveniently equates to buying more gak from them), I consider it a problem.

I agree with you. Also what about people who want to play an army and not some odd collection of multi FoC and formations. I didn't want to play coteaz or take ally , they are not IG , but I have to take them . Suddenly IG is not an army worth playing , because only source of god like divination is ally section . But the worse is going to happen when the new codex rolls up and suddenly the optimal anti tank or anti titan or anti flyer is a formation or something from a totaly different codex like a knight or something.

Our group does not allow escalation.

We are of the opinion that Dweapons and apocalyptic megablasts are silly for 40k. Ymmv of course.

Most of us have been playing since roguetrader and enjoy 6th edition quite a bit.

I wouldn't say people are crying. I completely understand where they are coming from. My guess is many of these people got into the game well before Escalation and do not like where the game is headed.

To label them as whiners and cryers is a bit.....odd.

On Fortifications, the main reason why virtually all fortifications are Imperial is because every world being fought over was or still is an Imperial world dating back to at least the Grand Crusade. All of these Imperial fortifications are 10,000+ years old, and have changed hands any number of times over those years. None of the other races have been big on building their forts or planetary infrastructure outside of their main racial holdings, yet Humans build forts every time they stop to pee, pee on everything they see, and go to great lengths to see everything so they can build a fort to pee.

So stop crying about missing non-Imperial Fortifications, and rejoice that you have taken control of an Imperial rest-stop.

SJ

It'd still be nice to see some variation, but then that's why people build their own.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
On Fortifications, the main reason why virtually all fortifications are Imperial is because every world being fought over was or still is an Imperial world dating back to at least the Grand Crusade. All of these Imperial fortifications are 10,000+ years old, and have changed hands any number of times over those years. None of the other races have been big on building their forts or planetary infrastructure outside of their main racial holdings, yet Humans build forts every time they stop to pee, pee on everything they see, and go to great lengths to see everything so they can build a fort to pee.

So stop crying about missing non-Imperial Fortifications, and rejoice that you have taken control of an Imperial rest-stop.

SJ

Is that a kind of religious commemoration of The Golden Throne?