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Thunderblitz says that "super-heavy vehicles may Tank Shock or Ram." Super-heavy walkers are super-heavy vehicles, as per their rules. However, normal walkers cannot Tank Shock (though I realise Super-heavy walkers aren't normal walkers), and this is the basis of my doubt. As I'll be playing a Warhound, though, I'd be happy to have things clarified.

Thoughts?

The list of Superheavy Vehicle special rules a Superheavy Walker can use are noted in the Superheavy Walker entry. Unfortunately, Thunderblitz is not listed. Instand, SHWs get Stomp, which does functionally the same thing (only in melee, and using small blast markers).

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The list of Superheavy Vehicle special rules a Superheavy Walker can use are noted in the Superheavy Walker entry. Unfortunately, Thunderblitz is not listed.

Neither Thunderblitz nor Stomp are listed under the "Special Rules" entry in Escalation (where I'm looking). This means that your claim doesn't seem to hold up, since Stomp isn't listed in the S-H-W Special Rules, nor is Thunderblitz listed in the S-H-V Special Rules. (Notice that "Special Rules" is its own category, and is different than...I don't know, 'normal' rules?)
So I don't see how your claim has any bearing...?

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The list of Superheavy Vehicle special rules a Superheavy Walker can use are noted in the Superheavy Walker entry. Unfortunately, Thunderblitz is not listed.

Neither Thunderblitz nor Stomp are listed under the "Special Rules" entry in Escalation (where I'm looking). This means that your claim doesn't seem to hold up, since Stomp isn't listed in the S-H-W Special Rules, nor is Thunderblitz listed in the S-H-V Special Rules. (Notice that "Special Rules" is its own category, and is different than...I don't know, 'normal' rules?)
So I don't see how your claim has any bearing...?

I'll assume you are just being a dick, as Thunderblitz is listed on pg. 14, while Stomp is listed on pg. 15. Since you have the book, read it.

SJ

Also if you read the book, Super Heavy Walkers follow all the rules of walkers not super heavy vehicles outside of Shooting, Vehicle Damage, Catastrophic Damage and Transport.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The list of Superheavy Vehicle special rules a Superheavy Walker can use are noted in the Superheavy Walker entry. Unfortunately, Thunderblitz is not listed.

Neither Thunderblitz nor Stomp are listed under the "Special Rules" entry in Escalation (where I'm looking). This means that your claim doesn't seem to hold up, since Stomp isn't listed in the S-H-W Special Rules, nor is Thunderblitz listed in the S-H-V Special Rules. (Notice that "Special Rules" is its own category, and is different than...I don't know, 'normal' rules?)
So I don't see how your claim has any bearing...?

I'll assume you are just being a dick, as Thunderblitz is listed on pg. 14, while Stomp is listed on pg. 15. Since you have the book, read it.

SJ

good way to have the modquisition called down upon you...

but yes, selective reading is not reading at all.

Under the rules for stomp it states that super heavy walkers have the ability to use this attack at initiative step 1. Which is giving allowance for them to use it.

The only super heavy walker I know that can thunderblitz at this time is the Lord of Skulls and it replaces it's ability to use the stomp attack with the ability to thunderblitz.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The list of Superheavy Vehicle special rules a Superheavy Walker can use are noted in the Superheavy Walker entry. Unfortunately, Thunderblitz is not listed.

Neither Thunderblitz nor Stomp are listed under the "Special Rules" entry in Escalation (where I'm looking). This means that your claim doesn't seem to hold up, since Stomp isn't listed in the S-H-W Special Rules, nor is Thunderblitz listed in the S-H-V Special Rules. (Notice that "Special Rules" is its own category, and is different than...I don't know, 'normal' rules?)
So I don't see how your claim has any bearing...?

Yeah, in escalation Stomp is only found in the Super Heavy Walker Rules.

The Super Heavy Walker rules also tell you exactly which Super Heavy Vehicle rules they use.

Are you looking in some summary, Or the actual long-written rules in the front of the book(I have the digital version so I don't know if the physical copy has a summary section like most Codices); if so only trust the long-form of the rules, Summaries do not have all of the rules fully printed because they are, well, summaries.

It doesn't seem that anyone is understanding what I'm trying to say, so I'll try again.

I've attached a pic of the page in question (censored to avoid the wrath of the GW). Note the size of the wording "Special Rules," which is the same size as the word "Thunderblitz." Note the special rules underneath the heading "Special Rules," which are much smaller than the heading "Thunderblitz." Both these things obviously lay out "Thunderblitz" as its own section.
Take another example, the "Vehicle Damage" heading. If we deny SHWs the ability to Blitz, then we might also have to deny them the abilities listed under "Vehicle Damage" in the SHV section since that rule is NOT in the SHW section.

If all SHVs can Blitz, and a SHW is a SHV, then SHWs can Blitz.

It's along the same lines as "Wraithguard can't shoot they don't have eyes".
Yes you can make a strict RaW argument that Super Heavy Walkers can make a Thunderblitz.
A strict argument only. Nothing more. It's very clear they shouldn't however.
Stomps for walkers, Thunderblitz for other vehicles.

Greywolf. take a pic of the Super Heavy Walkers page to see where you are incorrect...

viewfinder wrote:
Greywolf. take a pic of the Super Heavy Walkers page to see where you are incorrect...

Alright, even though this was rather vague, it did help. Under "Super Heavy" in the SHW rules, it says which sections to reference from the SHV rules: Thunderblitz is not listed. (This observation invalidates my example about not being able to use the Vehicle Damage section.) So, while I think that Grendel has it (RAW yes), it seems pretty clear to me at this point that RAI is no. Thanks for the help!

thunderblitz isn't a super heavy rule, it's not even a special rule. it is a modification to the tank shock rules.

SHV may tank shock, when they do roll on the thunderblitz table.

and SHW are SHV, and thus can tank shock.

it's very clear the can and it's RAW.

sirlynchmob wrote:
thunderblitz isn't a super heavy rule, it's not even a special rule. it is a modification to the tank shock rules.

SHV may tank shock, when they do roll on the thunderblitz table.

and SHW are SHV, and thus can tank shock.

it's very clear the can and it's RAW.

Super Heavy Walkers are not Super Heavy Vehicles.

They are Super Heavy Walkers.

They have exactly the Super Heavy vehicle rules that their rules say they have.

Super Heavy Walkers never ever have thunderblitz(unless they have a special rule that says they do).

The special rules that a SHW can use are listed on pg. 15 of Escalation. Thunderblitz is not listed on pg. 15 as an available rule SHWs can use. The only SHW that can use Thunderblitz (so far) is the Khorne Lord of Skulls, due to its Tracked Behemoth special rule on pg. 37 of Escalation. SHWs, in general, cannot tank shock or ram; however, they receive the Stomp rule instead, which has the exact same damage chart as Thunderblitz.

SJ

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
thunderblitz isn't a super heavy rule, it's not even a special rule. it is a modification to the tank shock rules.

SHV may tank shock, when they do roll on the thunderblitz table.

and SHW are SHV, and thus can tank shock.

it's very clear the can and it's RAW.

Super Heavy Walkers are not Super Heavy Vehicles.

They are Super Heavy Walkers.

They have exactly the Super Heavy vehicle rules that their rules say they have.

Super Heavy Walkers never ever have thunderblitz(unless they have a special rule that says they do).

The rule book disagrees with you. SHW ARE SHV and use ....

thunderblits is not a special rule, it's a modification to the tank shock rules. and SHV which includes SHW can tank shock.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
thunderblitz isn't a super heavy rule, it's not even a special rule. it is a modification to the tank shock rules.

SHV may tank shock, when they do roll on the thunderblitz table.

and SHW are SHV, and thus can tank shock.

it's very clear the can and it's RAW.

Super Heavy Walkers are not Super Heavy Vehicles.

They are Super Heavy Walkers.

They have exactly the Super Heavy vehicle rules that their rules say they have.

Super Heavy Walkers never ever have thunderblitz(unless they have a special rule that says they do).

The rule book disagrees with you. SHW ARE SHV and use ....

thunderblits is not a special rule, it's a modification to the tank shock rules. and SHV which includes SHW can tank shock.

Super-heavy Walkers are not Super-heavy Vehicles. Both are sub-types of Vehicles (much like Tank, Fast, Skimmer, etc).

Super-heavy Vehicles follow the rules for Vehicles with additions and restrictions.
Supr-heavy Walkers instead follow the rules for Walkers with additions and restrictions.

I thought this is a RAW forum, so why are people just ignoring the rule "super-heavy walkers are super-heavy vehicles"

because some guys keep adding in the "Not" the word not is not anywhere in the rule: "super-heavy walkers are super-heavy vehicles" If you're changing the rule, then you're starting off with a incorrect rule and any arguments based on a rule that is wrong is just wrong.

Can all vehicles tank shock? no, only tanks can.
so SHV are given permission to tank shock as well, with a roll on the thunderblitz table.
and as SHW = SHV they may also tank shock.

sirlynchmob wrote:
I thought this is a RAW forum, so why are people just ignoring the rule "super-heavy walkers are super-heavy vehicles"

because some guys keep adding in the "Not" the word not is not anywhere in the rule: "super-heavy walkers are super-heavy vehicles" If you're changing the rule, then you're starting off with a incorrect rule and any arguments based on a rule that is wrong is just wrong.

Can all vehicles tank shock? no, only tanks can.
so SHV are given permission to tank shock as well, with a roll on the thunderblitz table.
and as SHW = SHV they may also tank shock.

I apologize, I missed the second paragraph under Super-heavy Walkers.

Well lets see.
Page 121 of the Apocalypse rule book.
Paragraph 1 - Super-heavy Walkers follow the rules for Walkers, with some exception.
Paragraph 2 - Super-heavy Walkers use the Super-heavy vehicle rules for Shooting, Vehicle Damage, Catastrophic Damage and Transport Capacity.
Notice what is missing from that paragraph? Yep, Thunderblitz (and Movement). So what does this tell us? While it might be a Super-heavy Vehicle, it only uses certain rules from Super-heavy Vehicles.

and super heavy vehicles use the rules for vehicles.

where is tank shock, is it a under the basic rules for vehicles? no, walkers? no, squadrons? no. it's its own rule section after all the types of vehicles have been covered. the rule starts with a specific vehicle type and when it can be used.

Back to SHW, we start with this fun word "AND" a conjunction joining two independent statements. part 1, SHW are SHV. and part 2, Super-heavy vehicle rules for Shooting, Vehicle Damage, Catastrophic Damage and Transport Capacity.

the vehicle section starts with basic rules as they apply to all vehicles, then get more specific for walkers that modify those basic rules.

Then as tankshocking lies outside of the basic rules for movement & vehicles it would also follow that thunderblitz would be addressing this one rule in the BRB and adding to it. Instead of just tanks, we now have SHV's & tanks.

Then as a stand alone statement SHW=SHV, they can tank shock.

So is Thunderblitz in the rules for shooting, vehicle damage, Cata damage or Transport capacity?

Oddly enough, After reviewing my Escalation book, I can see how this thread got started.

Thunderblitz (Tank shock for SHV) happens in the movement phase.

SHW are SHV as per PG 15.

Stomp (Pg 15) (Special Attack for SHW) happens in the assault phase.

As per the top of Pg 14 Thunderblitz "Super-heavy vehicles may Tank Shock or Ram"

So Thunderblitz is a special form of movement that may be used by a SHV.

So the question given by the Op is, what is restricting a SHW from Thunderblitzing it its movement phase?

From best I can tell Nothing is, due to the fact that a SHW is a SHV, and a SHV may Thunderblitz.

What is restricting the SHW?

The rules for SHW specify exactly which SHV rules they use, and Thundrblitz is not one of them.

By that logic Baneblades cannot Thunderblitz as it is not in their rules.

I'll repeat again, the SHW entry informs us exactly which SHV rules a SHW has access to, a list that does not include Thunderblitz. It gets no more plainer than that. Thunderblitz is not listed on pg. 15 as an ability a SHW are allowed use, period.

Thunderblitz is listed as an ability all SHV can use, in general. While SHWs are SHVs, SHWs do not have Thunderblitz per the SHW entry. It is the SHW unit entry that defines how SHWs differ from other SHVs, specifically that Thunderblitz is not listed as a permissible ability, while Stomp is.

Further, the only SHW the has access to Thunderblitz is the Khorne Lord of Skull, which has a special rule that denies it Stomp while granting it Thunderblitz.

If the OP would like the Thunderblitz a SHW, play a Khorne Lord of Skulls.

SJ

 BLADERIKER wrote:
By that logic Baneblades cannot Thunderblitz as it is not in their rules.

you really missed the.point, didn't you?

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
I'll repeat again, the SHW entry informs us exactly which SHV rules a SHW has access to, a list that does not include Thunderblitz. It gets no more plainer than that. Thunderblitz is not listed on pg. 15 as an ability a SHW are allowed use, period.

Thunderblitz is listed as an ability all SHV can use, in general. While SHWs are SHVs, SHWs do not have Thunderblitz per the SHW entry. It is the SHW unit entry that defines how SHWs differ from other SHVs, specifically that Thunderblitz is not listed as a permissible ability, while Stomp is.

Further, the only SHW the has access to Thunderblitz is the Khorne Lord of Skull, which has a special rule that denies it Stomp while granting it Thunderblitz.

If the OP would like the Thunderblitz a SHW, play a Khorne Lord of Skulls.

SJ

Where in the Super-heavy Vehicles write up does it say that a Super-heavy Vehicle can thunderblitz but a Super-heavy Walker cannot? Nowhere is it listed that Stomp replaces Thunderblitz, nor does it state anywhere that a SHW cannot Thunderblitz.

The Khorn Lord is restricted from stomping as per (Pg 57, Tracked Behemoth) but is not restricted from preforming a Thunderblitz. It should be noted that KLoS is not a true walker but a hybrid tank/walker, Thus needing clarification of what it could and could not do. There is nothing listed in either the SHW nor the SHF Rules that state they are restricted from preforming a Thunderblitz.

Thunderblitz is a modified Tank shock, and thus you must consult the Thunderblitz rules to determine any restrictions. Tank shock is restricted to only those vehicles with the tank type or those vehicles that are tanks as per the rules. So the only restriction for preforming a Thunderblitz is you must be a SHV, given that SHW and SHF are SHV they are not restricted from thunderblitzing, where as a GMC or FGMC is restricted because it is not a SHV.

1: Super-Heavy Vehicles May preform a Thunderblitz ( Pg 14)
2: Super-heavy Walkers(pg 15),and Flyers (pg 16) Are Super-Heavy Vehicles
3; Therefore a Super-heavy Walker, or Flyer may preform a Thunderblitz.

This is a valid, sound and true argument.

Thunderblitz is a rule added to SHVs. SHWs use only certain rules granted to SHVs. but picking and choosing how to read rules is always a good way to proceed...

Can a normal Walker Tank Shock? There's your answer

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Can a normal walker Tank shock? Theres you're answer

^winner