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With the new 7ed Rulebook. SHW look to be able to Thunderblitz. See rule references below

Begins with Tank Shock, "when moving a vehicle with the Tank type, the player can declare that it is going to attempt to Tank Shock or Ram"

Under Super-Heavy Vehicles: Thunderblitz states Super-heavy vehicles may Tank Shock or Ram. When they do so, roll once on the Thunderblitz table..."

Super-Heavy Walkers: Super-Heavy reads "Super-heavy Walkers are Super-heavy vehicles..."

Under SHW it also states that SHW move 12" etc, Apart from this, they obey the movement rules for Walkers.

Under walkers no where does it say that they cannot TS or ram. The only parameters for allowing TS/Ram is to have the tank type OR be a super-heavy vehicle which in this case a SHW is a SHV.

ipso facto.....SHW can thunderblitz


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Under SHW it also states that "SHW move 12" etc. Apart from this, they obey the movement rules for Walkers."

Under walkers no where does it say that they cannot TS or ram. The only parameters for allowing TS/Ram is to have the tank type OR be a super-heavy vehicle which in this case a SHW is a SHV.

The Super Heavy walker rules also state which of the super heavy vehicle rules it uses.

Upon studying the rules, it would seem that super heavy walkers are super heavy vehicles, and the rulebook explicitly states super heavy vehicles can ram/tankshock... therefore they can thunderblitz... seems pretty clear.

The part I'm stuck on is how do you move a walker at cruising speed in order to tank shock/ram... I suppose you could just move normally. even though it doesn't follow the tank shock rules verbatim, being a walker, it is explicitly allowed according to the rules...

perrin23860 wrote:
Upon studying the rules, it would seem that super heavy walkers are super heavy vehicles, and the rulebook explicitly states super heavy vehicles can ram/tankshock... therefore they can thunderblitz... seems pretty clear.

The part I'm stuck on is how do you move a walker at cruising speed in order to tank shock/ram... I suppose you could just move normally. even though it doesn't follow the tank shock rules verbatim, being a walker, it is explicitly allowed according to the rules...

If you can quote where the Thunderblitz rule is listed under the Superheavy Walker entry, you would be able to prove your argument. Unfortunately, all of the Superheavy Vehicle rules that a Superheavy Walker is allowed to use are listed in the Superheavy Walker entry, and Thunderblitz is not one of them. Nor is a Tank rule listed, which means no Ramming or Tank Shocks. However, Superheavy Walkers can Charge and can Hammer of Wrath, two thing a Superheavy Tank cannot do.

SJ

By your logic, superheavy vehicles cannot use thunderblitz, as it is not listed under their entry either...

perrin23860 wrote:
By your logic, superheavy vehicles cannot use thunderblitz, as it is not listed under their entry either...

Re-read the entries for Superheavy Vehicles and Superheavy Walkers. Thunderblitz is a special rules found in the Superheavy Vehicle entry; however, the Superheavy Walker entry details how a SHW differs from a regular SHV, including a list of allowed SHV rules that apply to SHW. If you used logic, you would not have made such a false post.

SJ

Agree, even though you're being very impolite.

Super-heavy walkers do not use the rules of Super-heavy vehicles for moving, they use walker rules for moving, which include neither a permission to tank shock, nor the rules for thunderblitz, which are both executed during movement.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Can a normal Walker Tank Shock? There's your answer

Was about to say the same

Aslo pretty certain thunderblitz is an ammedment to the tank shock rules and to tank shock you need to be of the type tank. Which things like baneblades are Super Heavy (Tank)


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Blueboy at the top of this page even shows it to us (on phone so quoting is a pain)

Rule for BRB "When moving a vehicle with the Tank type, the player can declare they are going to attempt a Tank Shock / Ram"

So to do Thunderblitz which is a Tank Shock / Ramming you need to have the type TANK so if a SHW has the type tank then go for it (one does the Khorne Lord of Skull thats why he can tank shock) you dont even need to look at the super heavy rules to solve this you all looking in the wrong place its why this was never an issue... You need to be a tank!

 Jidmah wrote:
Agree, even though you're being very impolite.

Super-heavy walkers do not use the rules of Super-heavy vehicles for moving, they use walker rules for moving, which include neither a permission to tank shock, nor the rules for thunderblitz, which are both executed during movement.

Honestly i can see it ruled either way, just depends on the TOs interpretation. They're a few key words GW should have added .

The rules say the following;

SHW use the movement rules for walkers (regarding movement, charging, etc)

However SHW are (also) SHV and (in addition) follow the rules for blah blah
Or
However SHW are SHV and (only) follow the rules for blah blah

As they do not I am led to interpret the rule that SHW are flat SHV that use movement rules for walkers but are able to TS & ram

Katana, I agree that you have to be a tank type Except it also says all super heavy vehicles can TS/ram/TB. Rules state a SHW is a SHV

It specifically states which rules for super-heavy vehicles it uses though:

"Super-heavy Walkers are Super-heavy vehicles and use the Super-heavy vehicle rules for Shooting, Vehicle Damage, Catastrophic Damage and Transports."

No permission to use movement, special rules or thunderblitz.

Yup it says super heavy vehicles can use the rule tank shock like all vehicles they have access to the tank shock rule as it is a rule for vehicles.

As soon aa you hit the tank shock rule and try to use it you then can only do it if you are a tank. I dont see the arguement here to tank shock.you have to have type Tank even if you have access to the rule.

Example a skimmer is a vehicle and can theortically tank shock btt as you attempt to apply rule ahh damn dont have tank type so cant do it . Sorry but to do a GW there is no ambiguity in therules you have to be a tank to tank shock even if you have access saying it is possible. Super heavy flyers cannot tank shock.even though they are a super heavy vehicle same as a flyer cannpt tank shock even though it is a vehicle (excepting caestus as it has type tank)

Speaking of SHF, why do they need the rule to deny them permission to tank shock?

Because SHV rules grants fliers permission to tank shock, and as such they revoked it with another rule. No such rule exists to revoke it from walkers.

sirlynchmob wrote:
Speaking of SHF, why do they need the rule to deny them permission to tank shock?

Because SHV rules grants fliers permission to tank shock, and as such they revoked it with another rule. No such rule exists to revoke it from walkers.

Huh not sure what your saying here what and when did they revoke it :/

So I have the rule book finally in front of me.
1. Pg 94 - Super heavy vehicles are vehicles that have the additinal rules and exceptions below.... So they are vehicles and follow all the vehicle rules except when exceptions

2. Pg 95 - Thunderblitz - Super Heavy Vehicles may Tank Shock or Ram. When they do so blahblahbla.... So they can tank shock and ram we know this, 'may' is important word becuase that means it not set in stone ir is a possibilty they can

3. Pg 92 - when moving a vehicle with the Tank type, the player can declare that it is going to Tank Shock or Ram.... So here we have it you need to be a 'Tank'

4. Pg 96 - Super-heavy walker are walker (pg 90) that have the following additonal rules and exceptions given below. SUPER HEAVY - Super heavy Walker are Super Heavy Vehicles and use the Super heavy Vehicles rules for Shootinf, Vehicle Damage, Catastrophic Damage and Transport (pg 94l... This only gives us permission to use those super heavy vehicle rules anyway

Im hoping this all makes sense and helps

Under Zoom: zooming flyers can not tank shock or ram.
under tank shock restrictions: Flyers can not tank shock even if a tank.

Are there any tanks that can zoom? Not that I know of, so it seems like an odd rule to find.

SHF being SHV could ram though, except that flyers are restricted from doing so. Implying that without the rule restricting flyers, SHF could tank shock as well.

Walkers have no restrictions about ramming, so if a walker was also a tank it could ram, and a SHW being a SHV can also ram.

sirlynchmob wrote:
Under Zoom: zooming flyers can not tank shock or ram.
under tank shock restrictions: Flyers can not tank shock even if a tank.

Are there any tanks that can zoom? Not that I know of, so it seems like an odd rule to find.

SHF being SHV could ram though, except that flyers are restricted from doing so. Implying that without the rule restricting flyers, SHF could tank shock as well.

Walkers have no restrictions about ramming, so if a walker was also a tank it could ram, and a SHW being a SHV can also ram.

Some Eldar Super-Heavies can chose to become flieres. Maybe this is aimed at those, implying that they lose the ability to tank-shock they had before.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
It doesn't seem that anyone is understanding what I'm trying to say, so I'll try again.

I've attached a pic of the page in question (censored to avoid the wrath of the GW). Note the size of the wording "Special Rules," which is the same size as the word "Thunderblitz." Note the special rules underneath the heading "Special Rules," which are much smaller than the heading "Thunderblitz." Both these things obviously lay out "Thunderblitz" as its own section.
Take another example, the "Vehicle Damage" heading. If we deny SHWs the ability to Blitz, then we might also have to deny them the abilities listed under "Vehicle Damage" in the SHV section since that rule is NOT in the SHW section.

If all SHVs can Blitz, and a SHW is a SHV, then SHWs can Blitz.

Super heavy walkers are not super heavy vehicles. I know it sounds strange to say, but a quick glance through the summary pages of units in the book will clearly show you that stompas don't have the super heavy vehicle rule.

I can understand some of the confusion over this as we are used to all vehicles in 40k having as base the "vehicle" unit type. However, super heavies do not follow this convention of inheritance where a walker is both a vehicle and a walker where the walker specifically mentions that it follows the rules for infantry rather than vehicles for the purposes of movement and grants it the permission to pivot in the shooting phase.

Thus stompas can't thunderblitz as there is no mention of it in the super heavy walker section.

sonicaucie wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
It doesn't seem that anyone is understanding what I'm trying to say, so I'll try again.

I've attached a pic of the page in question (censored to avoid the wrath of the GW). Note the size of the wording "Special Rules," which is the same size as the word "Thunderblitz." Note the special rules underneath the heading "Special Rules," which are much smaller than the heading "Thunderblitz." Both these things obviously lay out "Thunderblitz" as its own section.
Take another example, the "Vehicle Damage" heading. If we deny SHWs the ability to Blitz, then we might also have to deny them the abilities listed under "Vehicle Damage" in the SHV section since that rule is NOT in the SHW section.

If all SHVs can Blitz, and a SHW is a SHV, then SHWs can Blitz.

Super heavy walkers are not super heavy vehicles. I know it sounds strange to say, but a quick glance through the summary pages of units in the book will clearly show you that stompas don't have the super heavy vehicle rule.

I can understand some of the confusion over this as we are used to all vehicles in 40k having as base the "vehicle" unit type. However, super heavies do not follow this convention of inheritance where a walker is both a vehicle and a walker where the walker specifically mentions that it follows the rules for infantry rather than vehicles for the purposes of movement and grants it the permission to pivot in the shooting phase.

Thus stompas can't thunderblitz as there is no mention of it in the super heavy walker section.

The rules clearly say "super heavy walkers ARE super heavy vehicles"
Super heavy vehicles can tank shock & ram
Super heavy fliers are also super heavy vehicles, they also have a rule specifically denying them the ability to tank shock and ram.

As has been pointed out, Thunderblitz is not an ability listed under the Superheavy Walker entry. What is even more telling is that Thunderblitz does not appear anywhere in the Imperial Knight Codex.

SJ

The rules clearly say "super heavy walkers ARE super heavy vehicles"
Super heavy vehicles can tank shock & ram
Super heavy fliers are also super heavy vehicles, they also have a rule specifically denying them the ability to tank shock and ram.

The rules state clearly that super heavy walkers are super heavy vehicles and follow the rules defined in that entry. They are not given the rule allowing them to tank shock or ram.

The distinction I was trying to make was that it goes against the normal method seen in the rulebook where vehicles are always of the vehicle type and then it defines what type of vehicle it is. I.E:

Vehicle(Walker, Open-Topped)

Vehicle(Fast, Skimmer)

Super heavies go against this convention as they are contained to their own unit types. I.E:

Super Heavy Vehicle

Super Heavy Walker

Super Heavy Flyer

Each entry clearly outlines all the rules that apply to them. The super heavy vehicle rule contains all of the rules required to damage, shoot with and interact with a super heavy vehicle on top of defining more rules that are used for "super heavy tanks". However, each entry only selects the rules from the super heavy vehicle section that applies to the type of super heavy that they're using. Thus Super Heavy Walkers cannot tank shock and ram as it is not defined as following such rules in the super heavy walker rules.

My original post was merely outlining that there is a clear distinction between a super heavy vehicle and a super heavy walker. Mainly that a baneblade does not follow the same rules as a stompa. One can tank shock/thunderblitz, the other can't.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
As has been pointed out, Thunderblitz is not an ability listed under the Superheavy Walker entry. What is even more telling is that Thunderblitz does not appear anywhere in the Imperial Knight Codex.

SJ

It wouldn't need to appear in the codex if it was already in the BRB.

I find it telling that flyers are told twice that they can not tank shock, yet they never state walkers can not tank shock. If they put in two rules just to clarify that some forge world tanks that can also fly can't, you'd think they could put in "fliers and walkers" if that was their intent.

Why would super heavy fliers need two rules to deny them permission to tank shock if permission was never granted?

the logical conclusion is that the rules for super heavy vehicles applies to walkers and fliers, and because permission to tank shock was granted, fliers needed a rule to retract that permission. A rule so important they made 2 rules for it to make sure they covered it, while never mentioning walkers.

sirlynchmob wrote:
The rules clearly say "super heavy walkers ARE super heavy vehicles"
Super heavy vehicles can tank shock & ram
Super heavy fliers are also super heavy vehicles, they also have a rule specifically denying them the ability to tank shock and ram.

Incorrect. The rules for super-heavy vehicles say that they use the thunderblitz rules. The thunderblitz rules say that super-heavy vehicles can tank-shock.

The rules for super-heavy walkers say they they don't use the thunderblitz rules, thus they can't tank-shock.

sirlynchmob wrote:
It wouldn't need to appear in the codex if it was already in the BRB.

It includes every other SH rule including Stomp, so that logic doesn't work.

Besides, Walkers can't move at Cruising speed, so even if they had the rule they couldn't use it.

About SHF there is one that can ram the caestus and its a Super Heavy Flyer Tank

Its all there and stated several times why SHW cannot thunderblitz they arent allowed thr logic that is being applied the other way means a normal Walker which uses the rules for a vehicle can move at cruising and combat speed bit we know this is false becuase it is a vehicle which uses the specified restricted rules on ot page just like a SHW

OK - I am New helping out with my Rules Clarifications HERE. Some of you know me - I am presently and International Law Attorney who has worked for Several Game Companies over the years, starting with FASA - and now working with/owning GW stock. i frankly can Help with the enjoyment and understanding of the actual creative 'purpose' of Rules, objectively and earnestly:

Firstly: I think we All have noticed that when Any Rule Question shows up - almost immediately there will be one 'Nay-sayer' monitoring such new questions who will DENY that ANYthing clear or clever or obvious is even possible. This is invariably followed by a stream of earnest players reassuring others that, indeed, MOST reasonable extrapolations or rule-exercises discovered ARE in fact pursuable and playable. There is Inherent BALANCE because (quite simply) if One side CAN do something -the other side Can as well.

Remember the most important thing about 'Rules' and Law: Rules are Prohibitive - Never 'permissive'. Meaning that: Rules tell you what you CAN'T do - Not what you Can do. 'Can' you drink water from a Pond? Uhh.. Yes - of course you can - since there is no 'rule' saying you can't. Can you hold your breath while rolling your dice. Errr.. of course - you CAN do things - unless a Rule says you Can't.

Regarding Super-Heavy Walkers - and questions of Thunderblitzing, etc. The Rules are quite Clear: SHWs ARE SHVs. There are other SHV rules referenced to remind us of that - they are not exclusive by their mere mention - meaning that SHWs can 'At Least' do such things listed, et al.

Page 95 1st Line of THE RULES clearly states: "Super-heavy vehicles may Tank Shock or Ram". Further, "...when Tank Shocking a Gargantuan creature... or Ramming a Super-heavy... carry out the Tank Shock or Ram as described on page 92 or 93".

This clarifies what is rather redundantly adumbrated before it: that (obviosly) there are a variety of 'vehicles' that can employ the techniques referred to as 'Tank Shock' and/or 'Ramming'. Super-heavy Vehicles/Walkers quite clearly function as an effective 'Tank' in such instances - and this is apparent from previous notations in The Rules on pages, 92, 93, 94, etc. Pg. 92: "A VEHICLE that has performed a Tank Shock...". Pg. 93.: "Any vehicle that can Tank Shock can Ram..."; and, "Each vehicle immediately suffers a hit..."; and, "* Mass. If the vehicle has the Tank type, add 1... *Excessive Mass. If the vehicle has the Heavy or Super-heavy type...add 2".

Ramming is something that Tanks, Super-heavy vehicles, and so: Super-heavy Walkers - and Super-heavy Flyers CAN DO - if you want to Risk it. And so: you opponent can Tank Shock or Ram you too with his Vehicles of those types. Remember, the Rules are written 'additively' for obvious reasons. Vehicle rules ar the underlying Rules for Walkers, as well as the underlying rules that also apply to Tanks. Any 'exceptions' are mentioned. if they are Not specifically Prohibited or mentioned as prohibited - they are Included. The consecutive 'Vehicle Types' later built on those subordinate rules - include those subordinate rules as well - unless it specifically says they are no longer applicable. It is mentioned that rules for Super-heavy vehicles on page 94 Likewise apply to SHWs and SHFs - as well as THUNDERBLITZ (et al) that specifically ALSO applies to ALL SHs - according to the Text therein. You can Tank Shock or Ram with the Thunderhawk Gunship - at your Peril (since you are going to take a HIT too). SO CAN your opponent!

You may opt to Not attack so self-destructively and just Move than Shoot - and Charge later too with your SHW (With Hammer of Wrath too, BTW)! Or you may choose to RAM chaotically at your opponents with your SHW (or SHF) - And take a HIT/Hits in your movement JUST LIKE your opponent(s) did - then Shoot, Charge, etc. afterwards too. Up to you...

Have at it!

Dude this thread was two years old and you didn't even bring forward any new evidence

With that in mind...