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 Crimson wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

Except this is blatantly false, as we know a Salamander survived from the Horus Heresy for ten thousand years, and before his comrades fell in battle on the planet, also lived for several thousand years. Then there's the constant description of them as immortal demigod.

But that's BL, right? BL authors crap on the fluff all the time.

Feats >>>>>> Statements, although even the Salamanders were shocked that the astartes survived for that time. So either the Salamanders are biologically immortal (although they still need their exercise to prevent atrophy), or all Astartes are so long as they have nutrition and exercise. Hell though, the Salamander lived so long that IIRC the fusion reactor died, and those things are practically self sufficient given their nature.

Or that book is silly and should just be ignored? BL books contradict studio fluff and each other all the time.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

Except this is blatantly false, as we know a Salamander survived from the Horus Heresy for ten thousand years, and before his comrades fell in battle on the planet, also lived for several thousand years. Then there's the constant description of them as immortal demigod.

But that's BL, right? BL authors crap on the fluff all the time.

Feats >>>>>> Statements, although even the Salamanders were shocked that the astartes survived for that time. So either the Salamanders are biologically immortal (although they still need their exercise to prevent atrophy), or all Astartes are so long as they have nutrition and exercise. Hell though, the Salamander lived so long that IIRC the fusion reactor died, and those things are practically self sufficient given their nature.

It should also be noted that he was decrepit and dying when they found him. And that he died shortly thereafter.

 Crimson wrote:
Or that book is silly and should just be ignored? BL books contradict studio fluff and each other all the time.

Or that book is the main source of information on the Salamanders and is part of one of the biggest series in W40K focusing on a single chapter.

There is a genetic reason why we do not live forever naturally. It would give us little reason to breed as we would not worry about our own mortality and passing on our dna, therefor the gene pool would stagnate, It is a biological advantage to age and die in terms of the species as a whole. Plus there has been nothing to suggest being a Perpetual is a genetic trait. The Emperor is a Perpetual and yet only one son out of 18 also became one.

There is an irreconcilable contradiction. Of course each of us can choose which version they prefer, but I certainly take several references to the finite marine lifespan in the studio fluff, over reference to immortality in a BL novel (which are known for their inconsistency anyway.)

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
There is a genetic reason why we do not live forever naturally. It would give us little reason to breed as we would not worry about our own mortality and passing on our dna, therefor the gene pool would stagnate, It is a biological advantage to age and die in terms of the species as a whole. Plus there has been nothing to suggest being a Perpetual is a genetic trait. The Emperor is a Perpetual and yet only one son out of 18 also became one.

Except this is actually laughably false considering there are multiple immortal animals in the modern day.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
There is a genetic reason why we do not live forever naturally. It would give us little reason to breed as we would not worry about our own mortality and passing on our dna, therefor the gene pool would stagnate, It is a biological advantage to age and die in terms of the species as a whole. Plus there has been nothing to suggest being a Perpetual is a genetic trait. The Emperor is a Perpetual and yet only one son out of 18 also became one.

Except this is actually laughably false considering there are multiple immortal animals in the modern day.

Oh really? A statement likes this shows how little you know regarding Zoology. There are NO immortal animals. As stated before, death and procreation are essential to mitigate deaths of a population due to disease and other factors by diversity of DNA.
Those "immortal" jellyfish everybody was talking about a while ago? A complete hoax.

 herpguy wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
There is a genetic reason why we do not live forever naturally. It would give us little reason to breed as we would not worry about our own mortality and passing on our dna, therefor the gene pool would stagnate, It is a biological advantage to age and die in terms of the species as a whole. Plus there has been nothing to suggest being a Perpetual is a genetic trait. The Emperor is a Perpetual and yet only one son out of 18 also became one.

Except this is actually laughably false considering there are multiple immortal animals in the modern day.

Oh really? A statement likes this shows how little you know regarding Zoology. There are NO immortal animals. As stated before, death and procreation are essential to mitigate deaths of a population due to disease and other factors by diversity of DNA.
Those "immortal" jellyfish everybody was talking about a while ago? A complete hoax.

Flatworms say hello, giving their thanks for bisecting them, kindly ask for you to do it again. Biological immortality does not also refer to complete ageless immortality, but rather reducing the chance that your cells will die from biological aging by poorly copied genes.

The ten thousand year old Salamander was canonically, in the book, only alive because he spent most of that time in a Sus-an coma. He also died of old age within hours of being woken from it.

Not a good example when trying to prove that Marinese are immortal.

They'll never be immortal because there's too much fighting. I mean you could live forever if you weren't killed by the various beasties that inhabit the galaxy, but it's unlikely.

In the extremely long-term, the Space Marines geneseed will eventually mutate hideously and humanity will evolve into a psychic race.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The ten thousand year old Salamander was canonically, in the book, only alive because he spent most of that time in a Sus-an coma. He also died of old age within hours of being woken from it.

Not a good example when trying to prove that Marinese are immortal.

Or it could just as easily be pointed to having a lack of a proper diet in a very sparse environment coupled with muscle atrophy. It's actually a greater feat, as sitting on your ass doing nothing tends to make you actually die faster, it's amazing his body didn't devour itself for energy.

That's what the Sus-an Coma prevents. It's a self-inflicted state of near-total suspended animation.

If Space Marines were immortal, the Blood Angel Codex would not note the members of that Chapter as being "exceptionally long-lived" in comparison to other Astartes.

 Psienesis wrote:
That's what the Sus-an Coma prevents. It's a self-inflicted state of near-total suspended animation.

If Space Marines were immortal, the Blood Angel Codex would not note the members of that Chapter as being "exceptionally long-lived" in comparison to other Astartes.

Or that is simply a reference to them being luckier or hardier than other chapters, and surviving greater wounds and living for greater periods of time before inevitably being killed. Suspended animation is not some magical no-sums removal from requiring energy, he'd still need it. I also remember the sus-an membrane only works for so long before the user dies from a lack of nutrients, coupled with as I remember the Salamanders actually being fairly active on the planet until they one by one fell and thus the last one only going into suspended animation when all his fellows died. So they are indeed biologically immortal, or at least the Salamanders are.

Also, surviving Thunder Warriors wanted to grab Astartes augmentations in Outcast Dead to fix themselves so they wouldn't die, which also points to Astartes being flat out biologically immortal.

That's exactly what suspended animation is. If your body is not consuming energy to keep itself running, it doesn't need to intake any. It's not true suspended animation, of course, and is not intended to be used over such a long period of time, but this one guy doing it successfully is, again, an outlier of the situation (and the fact that the other guys all drop dead from doing it indicates that biological immortality isn't theirs.)

And what the Thunder Warriors thought of the Astartes does not indicate what the Astartes actually are. Certain groups of people in Africa believe that drinking the blood of a virgin will make you immune to HIV and/or cure AIDS (since some 50% of the population is infected)... this, of course, does not actually work, but that doesn't stop people from believing it.

 Psienesis wrote:
That's exactly what suspended animation is. If your body is not consuming energy to keep itself running, it doesn't need to intake any. It's not true suspended animation, of course, and is not intended to be used over such a long period of time, but this one guy doing it successfully is, again, an outlier of the situation (and the fact that the other guys all drop dead from doing it indicates that biological immortality isn't theirs.)

And what the Thunder Warriors thought of the Astartes does not indicate what the Astartes actually are. Certain groups of people in Africa believe that drinking the blood of a virgin will make you immune to HIV and/or cure AIDS (since some 50% of the population is infected)... this, of course, does not actually work, but that doesn't stop people from believing it.

The longest use of the sus-an membrane was slightly over five hundred years, no-where near 10,000, of which the Salamander likely spent several thousand active and helping protect the civilians from the orks. As for the Thunder Warriors, they were acting off word that Astartes were immortal (which most or at least some are indeed biologically immortal), IIRC their belief also came from the Emperor making them immortal. Point is that not only do astartes refer to themselves as immortal, and there have been astartes that have lived for over a thousand years, they have biological immortality, and have suspended animation, yes, they're immortal. And as for the Salamander, unless you want to claim that apparently the sus-an membrane slows metabolism to the point that it would nearly require infinite energy for him to remain alive, it's far more likely that he was awake most of the time, actively consuming food and putting energy into his body, as opposed to surviving ten thousand years in a coma. Even Tardigrades need energy eventually. I'm also quite certain that the Blood Angels codex is a solid point to make, as it's a reliable book written by a reliable ma-




Motherfether

 Wyzilla wrote:
Also, surviving Thunder Warriors wanted to grab Astartes augmentations in Outcast Dead to fix themselves so they wouldn't die, which also points to Astartes being flat out biologically immortal.

Fabius Bile disagrees.
We've seen all across the fluff that Marines experience ageing, they go grey, they slow down and degenerate. This degeneration would surely eventually lead to death.

 Crimson wrote:
There is an irreconcilable contradiction. Of course each of us can choose which version they prefer, but I certainly take several references to the finite marine lifespan in the studio fluff, over reference to immortality in a BL novel (which are known for their inconsistency anyway.)

Novels, not novel.

In Heroes of the Space Marines there was a 'present day' story of BL veterans who had seen ten thousand years of warfare and fought on just fine.

Hell, the leader of this squad had amassed a hill of skulls of the gene-seed descendants of his original UM friend, having killed each, taken his skull, and left the geneseed for his chapter to recover so that the next descendant could take his place.

In Horus Rising Captain Loken confirms that they are immortal.

BL is just as canon as codices are, especially since the supposed long-liveness of the BA can be due to luck, fate, hardiness, more tactical focus on survival...

Anecdote is most certainly not evidence in this case. That no long-lived loyalists still live are just because they always die in battle. Hell, there may even be 100K year old CSM wandering about due to the vagaries of time in the Warp.

There is no evidence whatsoever that states Marines are not immortal, just implications. Sentences like 'Marines can live for hundreds of years' can easily be attributed to them dying in battle.

On the contrary, there's far too many indications that Marines are immortal to just brush it off as 'silly'. Your dislike of a source does not make it less valid.

Blood Angels longevity is not invented by Ward. From 2nd edition codex: "The Blood Angels are amongst the longest-lived of all of the Space Marine Chapters, their gene-seed granting a vastly increased lifespan on all who possess it. It is not uncommon, therefore, for a Blood Angel to live for a millennium or more, if death in battle or the Red Thirst does not claim him first." It is pretty clear it refers to the natural lifespan and not to avoiding death in combat. And of course there is the direct reference to the Astartes lifespan in 6E BRB. Limited marine lifespan is pretty solidly established and the incident in 'Salamander' must be either regarded as a mistake by the author or a fluke caused by some unknown circumstances.

 Crimson wrote:
Blood Angels longevity is not invented by Ward. From 2nd edition codex: "The Blood Angels are amongst the longest-lived of all of the Space Marine Chapters, their gene-seed granting a vastly increased lifespan on all who possess it. It is not uncommon, therefore, for a Blood Angel to live for a millennium or more, if death in battle or the Red Thirst does not claim him first." It is pretty clear it refers to the natural lifespan and not to avoiding death in combat. And of course there is the direct reference to the Astartes lifespan in 6E BRB. Limited marine lifespan is pretty solidly established and the incident in 'Salamander' must be either regarded as a mistake by the author or a fluke caused by some unknown circumstances.

A single sentence in a very outdated codex is not something I put much stock in.

Not comparing to the plenty of cases showing the contrary.

Chaos Marines may well be immortal, I have never questioned that. But that is part of their pact with the ruinous powers.

Nothing in the book said that.

And it still leaves Loken.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

A single sentence in a very outdated codex is not something I put much stock in.

It is in the current codex too. And of course there is the current BRB.

 Crimson wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

A single sentence in a very outdated codex is not something I put much stock in.

It is in the current codex too. And of course there is the current BRB.

You mean the same BRB that says the Space Marines are the most important contributors to the Imperium's continued survival?

By the contrary, absolutely nothing in any text provides for immortal Space Marines, outside of theories and "well, we might be, but none of us is going to live long enough to prove it".

So a guy lives 10,000 years and then drops dead. So what? He obviously wasn't immortal, even biologically, as he was obviously decrepit and old as hell.

 Psienesis wrote:
By the contrary, absolutely nothing in any text provides for immortal Space Marines, outside of theories and "well, we might be, but none of us is going to live long enough to prove it".

So a guy lives 10,000 years and then drops dead. So what? He obviously wasn't immortal, even biologically, as he was obviously decrepit and old as hell.

Again, Horus Rising.

 Wyzilla wrote:
The longest use of the sus-an membrane was slightly over five hundred years, no-where near 10,000

In Eye of Terror a Dark Angel from the Heresy survives floating in Space for 10,000 years in a sus-an coma.

 Wyzilla wrote:
the Salamander likely spent several thousand active and helping protect the civilians from the orks.

We also don't know when the ship actually exited the warp, so it may not quite have been 10k years.

 Wyzilla wrote:
As for the Thunder Warriors, they were acting off word that Astartes were immortal (which most or at least some are indeed biologically immortal), IIRC their belief also came from the Emperor making them immortal.

Their beliefs don't really matter though, at the time of the Heresy Marines had only been around for a few hundred years, not long enough to die of old age.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Point is that not only do astartes refer to themselves as immortal, and there have been astartes that have lived for over a thousand years, they have biological immortality, and have suspended animation, yes, they're immortal.

But we get this lovely line from The Iron Within "Tavarre died of old age in the cruiser infirmary,"
Space Marines refering to themselves as immortal is just a case of them not knowing any better.

 Wyzilla wrote:
I'm also quite certain that the Blood Angels codex is a solid point to make, as it's a reliable book written by a reliable ma-

Spoiler:

Motherfether

Yeah, that dastardly Ward and his inclusion of Rick Priestly fluff from Codex: Angels of Death!

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
And it still leaves Loken.

Loken is simply wrong.