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So, in another post a fellow Dakka-er and I got a tad off topic about the effectiveness of the Fire Prism/Wave Serpent/Bright Lance War Walkers/WraithKnight vs Vehicles. I am (kind of obviously) under the opinion that the Fire Prism is an under respected Tank eater, while he believed that the Fire Prism just doesn't compare to the other options. (full debate here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/587778.page)

So what do you believe the best AT option is for the Eldar at the current moment?

Eldar have so many good anti-tank options it's almost not worth debating over. The Fire Prism is great anti-tank, it's hard to beat S9 AP1 Lance. Any Penetrating hit causes an explosion on a 4+. If it's open-topped it's a 3+! Pretty hard to argue with that. When you're talking about light vehicles, of course that's a little over-kill maybe, since a Scatter Laser has a decent chance of Hull Pointing a 2 Hull Point vehicle in 1 volley. Your basic Wave Serpent has great anti-vehicle power.

But basically yeah... Eldar have no problems with anti tank. Prism Cannons and Bright Lances help a lot when you're dealing with AV13 and AV14 vehicles, especially Land Raiders. For everything else though, these days Wave Serpents and War Walkers with Scatter Lasers will probably do just fine due to their sheer volume of fire.

I'd probably rank the Eldar weapons as follows:

Prism Cannons
Bright Lances
Serpent Shield
Fusion Guns
Wraith Cannons
Star Cannons

If it was each of those weapons fireing once at a tank then yes prism cannon, but thats not how it works. Its what unit is best at anti tank.

I vote lancewalkers and/or wave serpent as my top dog.

By the way OP we werent just debating over best anti tank, because then technically fire dragons or wraith guard would win.

It all depends on what kind of vehicles you are fighting, what their armour vaules are, and what makes up the rest of your army.

Vs AV 10-11 the waveserpent is king. Of coures I mean a standard scatterlaser setup here. There's only so much high volume medium strength firepower that light medium armour can take.
With the waveserpent's maneuverability this firepower is still pretty viable against many battletanks, as long as you can hit that side armour.

Vs AV >12 you've got warwalkers, or that flyers with 4 str 8 shots a turn. Alternatively there are always wraithknights, either with shooting their 2 str 10 shots, or assaulting.

It all comes down to what else you have in your list, and how well the anti tank choice compliments it.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
If it was each of those weapons fireing once at a tank then yes prism cannon, but thats not how it works. Its what unit is best at anti tank.

I vote lancewalkers and/or wave serpent as my top dog.

By the way OP we werent just debating over best anti tank, because then technically fire dragons or wraith guard would win.

Touché. Apologies on the poor wording.

Perhaps a smidgen more accurate for the debate, what is the most efficient anti tank, taking all things into consideration (range, effectiveness, versatility, durability, cost, etc.)

As for AV 13+, I prefer: Wraithknight > Lance Walkers > Crimson Hunter > Fire Prisim > Wraithguard (Only if a spiritseer is included) > Fragons

My Eldar army has quite a bit of anti-tank
Guardian squads with Bright Lance Platforms (3-5)
Walkers with Scatter/BL (3)
Crimson Hunter (2)
Fire Prism (1-2)

I'm usually looking at 8 Bright Lances plus 1 Prism Cannon at a minimum. I've yet to have any issues with tanks.

 Happyjew wrote:
Walkers with Scatter/BL (3)

Whaaaaa

 ninjafiredragon wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Walkers with Scatter/BL (3)

Whaaaaa

I'm gonna agree with him on this one, if you take those, take two lances. Better than twin link because just as statistically possible to hit plus chance of hitting twice.

However, this was a key point in the debate. Why even bother with lance toting war walkers? For the same cost, you can have better range and more durability in a Fire Prism. And the cherry on top is that ap 1 for a 50-50 chance at one hitting the vehicle you shot. I see them as a safer bet.

I would certainly take double lance walkers. You already have wave serpents for anti infantry, so you don't need the scatter lasers in this regard, and as others have said, 2 lances > 1 TL-lance.

The problem with the fire prism is this: 1 shot.
Sure, it's AP 1, and if you manage to hit and get then pen roll you need, then you stand a decent chance of destroying a vehicle, however 1 shot at BS4 is still dicey.
However, for the cost of 1 fire prism with a holofield you can get 2 warwalkers with 2 bright lances each. These also have the lance special rule, and AP2 is still decent.

Here are some numbers for you, the chance of 1 prism shot, or 4 bright lances, at damaging a landraider:

1 prism shot: 0.666 hits per turn. Average of 0.333 pens, and 0.111 glances. Average hull points removed: 0.444. Total chance to destroy target: 16.7%

4 lance shots: 2.666 hits per turn. Average of 0.888 pens, and 0.444 glances. Average hull points removed: 1.333. Total chance to destroy target: 29.6%

I'm afraid the numbers do not get better for the fire prism against lighter targets either. So clearly, war walkers offer a better damage output vs vehicles.

Lets discuss durability now.
Fireprism with holofields (you did take them didn't you??) has a cover save of 4+ in the open if they move, and better if behind good cover. AV 12 is better than the war walkers but still nothing special. Can be put down with 1 destroyed or weapon destroyed result.
War walkers get a 5++ save all the time. 10 armour means you have to keep them back. Multiple vehicles make them more reliable against unlucky dice rolls. Can abuse Battle focus to shoot and then hide, or hide and then shoot.

Personally I prefer the walkers, as they are more efficient at the job you have planned for them. And with proper distancing, and target prioritization, you can keep them relatively safe.
Yes the prism has a bigger range, but with a 36 range and a 6+d6 fleet move the warwalkers should be in range of most things as well.

As a final note, warwalkers are more effective vs MC's than the prism. Which can count for a lot depending on your meta.

In tournament play I prefer the prism, fact of the matter is I don't see a lot of Heavy tanks (Land Raiders, Monoliths, etc.) but I do see a lot of MEQ, and erasing MEQ is the big thing about Fire Prisms (S5 AP3 large blast is the ultimate marine killer I don't care what you say) the lance is that extra hug you get from the thing to take out that one land raider at the tournament that no one brought anything to effectively take down early. I always prefer my units be effective at multiple things before I place them on the table so that when I lose one unit I have back up still. War walkers with 2 BL on the other hand will only really be effective against 3 units, TEQ, Centurions, and Vehicles. If I bring out my Fire Prism I have TEQ, MEQ, Vehicles, Centurions, and Light Infantry toasted, especially because I generally run a farseer with Guide and Prescience so TL Fire Prisms when I need it.

Three hornets (expensive £/$-wise, i know) with pulse lasers. Very cheap points-wise for what you get. For extra bang, give em star engines and crystal targeting matrices. Turns your cheapo unit into an expensive unit, but you'll threaten everything.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:


Here are some numbers for you, the chance of 1 prism shot, or 4 bright lances, at damaging a landraider:

1 prism shot: 0.666 hits per turn. Average of 0.333 pens, and 0.111 glances. Average hull points removed: 0.444. Total chance to destroy target: 16.7%

4 lance shots: 2.666 hits per turn. Average of 0.888 pens, and 0.444 glances. Average hull points removed: 1.333. Total chance to destroy target: 29.6%

I'm afraid the numbers do not get better for the fire prism against lighter targets either. So clearly, war walkers offer a better damage output vs vehicles.

Lets discuss durability now.
Fireprism with holofields (you did take them didn't you??) has a cover save of 4+ in the open if they move, and better if behind good cover. AV 12 is better than the war walkers but still nothing special. Can be put down with 1 destroyed or weapon destroyed result.
War walkers get a 5++ save all the time. 10 armour means you have to keep them back. Multiple vehicles make them more reliable against unlucky dice rolls. Can abuse Battle focus to shoot and then hide, or hide and then shoot.

Please do note my primary opponent is Tau Empire, meaning the difference of av 10 and 12 is the difference of everything being able to hurt you, vs. only about 4 teams per army able to hurt you. Against the Tau, there is realistically no way on a 6'x4' board to hide 2 war walkers for very long (i.e. past turn 2) and they're dead when they're caught (run the numbers of 30 S: 5 BS: 4 shots with IC). My Prisms out shoot hammerheads, and after over 20 games since the new codex, I've only lost 3 Fire Prisms.

Ok sure. Against tau the prism would probably be better. But this is the first time you have mentioned tau. Against most other armies the war walkers would still perform better imo.

Tau have the advantage of non-LoS weapons, most other armies don't.

With that said, tau are only vicious up to range 30, your walkers could fire at 36 and then run back afterwards. You will be out of range of most of the return fire then.

 Will1541 wrote:

 ninjafiredragon wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Walkers with Scatter/BL (3)

Whaaaaa

I'm gonna agree with him on this one, if you take those, take two lances. Better than twin link because just as statistically possible to hit plus chance of hitting twice.

However, this was a key point in the debate. Why even bother with lance toting war walkers? For the same cost, you can have better range and more durability in a Fire Prism. And the cherry on top is that ap 1 for a 50-50 chance at one hitting the vehicle you shot. I see them as a safer bet.

2 Lances will average 1.333 hits. 1 twin-linked Lance will average .889 hits. That said, I don't take the SL to twin-link, I take it for some extra anti-horde or anti-light armour.

@ Happyjew But why bother with them in the first place? (them being war walkers) If you want anti horde or light vehicle hunting, Spam Serpent. Then compliment that with a Fire Prism for the Land Raider or other AV 13+ issues. The walker melts to mere S:4 bolter fire, which constitutes the majority of the game, so why run it if literally everyone can kill it without any effort?

Why not? I play what I like. I like War Walekrs so I use them.

To be fair, I don't often us Fire Prisms. My "normal" Eldar army is a slight tweak on the old Ulthwe Strike Force -
1-2 Farseers
3-10 Warlocks
3-4 Guardian squads with Serpent
2-3 Windrider squads
1 Crimson hunter
1 War Walker Squadron
0-1 Vaul Wrath
0-1 Dark Reapers

The main difference between the Ulthwe Strike Force and my army is that I take Serpents.

 Will1541 wrote:
@ Happyjew But why bother with them in the first place? (them being war walkers) If you want anti horde or light vehicle hunting, Spam Serpent. Then compliment that with a Fire Prism for the Land Raider or other AV 13+ issues. The walker melts to mere S:4 bolter fire, which constitutes the majority of the game, so why run it if literally everyone can kill it without any effort?

This is so false. I run a full unit of 3 walkers in almost every game. I have yet to lose one to bolter fire. If your war walkers are in bolter range, you are doing it all wrong. Battle focus is really what makes them shine. Being able to walk out, shoot, and then hide behind LoS blocking terrain is gold. Outflanking is another great way to gain excelent positioning. The thing is War Walkers take a higher level of skill to keep alive, but the reward is so, so worth it.

As for the Prisim, its bane is only having one shot. The blasts are great and all, but are easily mitigated by area terrain and propper spreading.

Wraithknight is hands down the best tank cracker. It reliably can get there to break any tank in the game if it cant do it with the wraithcannons.

2nd best option is to ally in Corsairs and deepstrike fire dragons or wraithguard via a corsair prince. Free deepstrike for 3 units for 100 points is a pretty darn good deal, especially since you can also make it night fighting for the enemies shooting phase once per game. Corsair prince is so silly.

I see a ton of mention of ScatterSerpents as the best anti-11/12 AV, but I heartily disagree.

You are forgetting the amazing Warp Spiders.

As for the Prism/Walker debate, Prism also help with saturation of AV12 whereass Walkers are Bolter bait. And with the prevalence of Drop Pods for the last two editions...tend to die despite the Battle Focus.

 Happyjew wrote:
Why not? I play what I like. I like War Walekrs so I use them.

To be fair, I don't often us Fire Prisms. My "normal" Eldar army is a slight tweak on the old Ulthwe Strike Force -
1-2 Farseers
3-10 Warlocks
3-4 Guardian squads with Serpent
2-3 Windrider squads
1 Crimson hunter
1 War Walker Squadron
0-1 Vaul Wrath
0-1 Dark Reapers

The main difference between the Ulthwe Strike Force and my army is that I take Serpents.

I'm glad someone else still loves playing Ulthwe the classic way. Tons of guardians and psykers with Dark Reapers being the only aspect warriors. Before the 6th edition codex, the Ulthwe Strike Force was the only way to get guardians and War Walkers with BS 4.

On topic, personally I've found 3 units of Guardians with Bright Lances plus Serpents (when I'm playing competitively and can't go full classic Ulthwe) is enough to take on most threatening vehicles. The Bright Lances can get rerolls from the Farseers to take on Heavy Armor while the Serpents can wreak havoc with light armor and other transports. I typically run War Walkers with Scatter Laser/Star cannon for TEQ or MEQ hunting. In larger games I'll give Dark Reapers S 8 missiles and the exarch a fast shot Missile Launcher. This gives them excellent flexibility for taking on anything except TEQ.

Maybe if I know I'm going to fight Imperial Knights I'll equip Bright Lances on War Walkers but I'd never take a Fire Prism for the sole purpose of taking on heavy armor. A single shot has way too many odds against it. I still take a Fire Prism occasionally but more for the S5 AP3 large blast and the utility of possibly taking out a vehicle if I'm desperate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
More to the point, Fire Prisms are great utility vehicles in that they can perform multiple roles and so are good for TAC armies. War Walkers with Bright Lances are very limited in their role. Once all the MC or heavy tanks are destroyed their effectiveness drops. I'd take a Fire Prism before I'd take Bright Lance War Walkers for this reason.

Every meta is different though.

Zimko wrote:
I'm glad someone else still loves playing Ulthwe the classic way. Tons of guardians and psykers with Dark Reapers being the only aspect warriors. Before the 6th edition codex, the Ulthwe Strike Force was the only way to get guardians and War Walkers with BS 4.

Like I said, it is not a true Ulthwe Strike Force for a few reasons: I have Serpents, Windriders are Troops.

I run 2 Aspect squads, one is Dark Reapers so it doesn't count. Per the old rules, other than Reapers you could have exactly one Aspect unit.

Now, if only I stopped being lazy and got everything painted.

 Happyjew wrote:
Why not? I play what I like. I like War Walkers so I use them.

Fair enough. No intent to bash your play style.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
I see a ton of mention of ScatterSerpents as the best anti-11/12 AV, but I heartily disagree.

You are forgetting the amazing Warp Spiders.

As for the Prism/Walker debate, Prism also help with saturation of AV12 whereas Walkers are Bolter bait. And with the prevalence of Drop Pods for the last two editions...tend to die despite the Battle Focus.

Yes, Warp Spiders are amazing, but I don't own any, unfortunately. And yes, this is what I meant by dying easily. You can try to hide them, but anyone with two brain cells will have a way to deal with it (seeing as to how Eldar/Dark Eldar/Tau/I'msurethere'smore all Jump-Shoot-Jump)

In the fire prism camp myself or the wraithknight camp. Both can do huge damage to armor, and when guided doubly so.

I'm not a fire-prism fan. It suffers from Melta syndrome. If you're rolling just the one dice, it will inevitably be a one.

Wraithknight all the way. Perfect target for guide/prescience. S10 is boss, and he's totally survivable, where-as armour has a habit of being popped by a stray lascannon.

Aside from that, my Reapers w/ Starshot do work. Especially against other Eldar.

War Walkers - SL/BL, BL/BL, magnetise these guys.

Warp spiders and the BL's with my guardian squads do the rest.

I typically find my Wraithknight can be enough, coupled with all the S6/7 that comes from Serpents and the like.

Also, Swooping hawks deserve a mention. Haywire grenades in assault are awesome, and upon dropping in, if you have your exarch toss one, it's a guaranteed hullpoint.

@Belly Good input, welcome to the debate.

My problem with the Wraithknight is at 240 pts, you can have a max team of Kroot with sniper rounds (app 160 pts) annihilate your Knight in 1-3 turns. Not that the Tau do this or anything...

Out of curiosity, could everyone state their most common enemy?

I play a pretty mixed meta, and quite a few tournaments. Small, highly competitive gakming scene.

Yeah, Kroot will annihilate a knight, and so will Dark Eldar.

That said, A Knight is fantastic against Tau, because Kroot are nearly the only thing worth worrying about. That said, against Tau, they will take out a fire prism quick, and War Walkers even faster. Horses for courses, and I find the Wraithknight has the best spread against most armies. S10 has utility against so much, and 6 T8 Wounds is the most resilient thing going around short of a GUO.

I wouldn't worry about Kroot, you can usually deploy out of their range, and a serpent of two will remove that Kroot blob quick smart.

My meta consists of pretty much everything except Sisters. I found out the other day there are a couple people who have them, they just don't bring them out.

None of the normal players have jumped on the IK bandwagon so I no one has to deal with them. Yet.

The Eldar are spoiled for heavy tank killing.

Fragons with boatloads of meltas, Distort weapons that rip away hull points and put down free penetrating hits, Haywires on fast, deep striking units to reduce even the toughest vehicle to dust, Bright lances out the wazoo, Wraithcannons, Fire prsms, Monowire spam, Missile spam, Monstrous creature HQs (one of which can spit out two meltashots at BS10, the other being a FW unit), Monstrous creatures in HS.

Every slot can have things to break open tanks with ease.

Only the Necrons and Dark Eldar can be really said to be peers to Eldar tank killing ability.

Just going to list all of my AT

Fusion Gun Autarch and his Lance
Falcon with Bright Lance
Crimson Hunter
Wave Serpents
Swooping Hawks...for the suicide run on AV14 with Haywire
Spears with Star Lance Exarch
Witchblades on occassion
Night Spinner on occassion
"Twin Linked" Vibrocannons
Some Telepathy and Telekinesis Powers

The list is pretty riddled with AT...but the Hunter probably does the most work for me.