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Most hypocritical Primarch? Without a doubt Dorn and Guilimium. Complaining about relatively low level atrocities committed during the Crusade but then Virus bombing half the Imperium after the heresy. Treating Alphariuous like he was a coward while at the same time hunkering down on Ultramar during the Heresy and running from Angron. The Emperor picks the Ultramarines to humiliate Lorgar for a reason, Guill might have changed history if when ordered he said to Lorgar

"i'm sorry I feel your pain and understand your anger let me help you build something that will be greater than anything i've or will ever do"

At least Dorn was their during the siege. So i'd say its Guilliman followed by Dorn.

I totally disagree with both of those choices.

Guilliman was far from a hypocrite. He was a staunch pragmatist. He knew that the realities of war were terrible and regrettable but that sometimes they were necessary. I don't really know what you are referring to about "complaining about relatively low level atrocities"? Guilliman looked down on the Primarchs that made war for the sake of making war. He was one of the few Primarchs that saw the use of the Legions beyond the wars of the crusades, to use them to govern and administer, to try and empathize with the humans they served. Then when Horus broke that future, he was forced to adapt. He knew that to save the many, sacrifices needed to be made, treachery had to be crushed to stop it's spread, it was never a case of committing violence for the thrill of it. The Emperor picked the Ultramarines to humilate Lorgar because they were the ideal Legion, the one that most embodied the crusade. They were supposed to be the example to the Word Bearers of what a true Legion looked like. Guilliman didn't agree to go because he enjoyed shaming Lorgar; His brother had broken the rules, and he loyally followed his father in making an example of him. Whilst I think that the Emperor went about Monarchia all wrong, Guilliman was still the best one to take with him, lacking the sneering superiority of Fulgrim, or the haughty show boating of The Lion; Guilliman was the passive face of obedience. It's just that Lorgar took offence to his brother's silence and read too much into it, seeing malice where there was only hope that he would learn to be a better Primarch.

You can't call regrouping your strength and trying to gather information of the state of war, as cowardice. Guilliman would have been an idiot if he threw his men away in a meat grinder like Ferrus Mannus did at Istvaan. He understands that winning the war isn't enough, that there has to be an imperium left once the war is won. He deplores the Alpha Legion tactics because they are all about deception and lack of trust, which is not the ideals that the imperium was meant to be built on.

I have no idea why Dorn is hypocritical, he never made a bold statement and then vastly contradicted it. His main failing as a character is that he can seem a little Vanilla sometimes.

I think the biggest hypocrite was my favourite Primarch...Curze. Konrad Curze was a madman who believed humanity needed to be under a boot to be controlled. He was a self appointed monster for the galaxy to fear in order to obey. And yet he lead a Legion of the scum of the galaxyy. Sevatar put's it best when he points out that terror was not the only way, but the only way that Curze ever tried. Even his so called "vindication" after letting himself die for his crimes was a confused lie. He thought he proved that the Emperor was just as bad for killing him and therefor his actions were justified, when in actuality the Emperor had long been entombed on the Throne and had no care or concern for his wayward son at that point. He became a monster for the sake of being a monster, all the while preaching noble ideals to a Legion of Murderers and rapists that he despised. He is a wonderful, tragic hypocrite.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
Most hypocritical Primarch? Without a doubt Dorn and Guilimium. Complaining about relatively low level atrocities committed during the Crusade but then Virus bombing half the Imperium after the heresy. Treating Alphariuous like he was a coward while at the same time hunkering down on Ultramar during the Heresy and running from Angron. The Emperor picks the Ultramarines to humiliate Lorgar for a reason, Guill might have changed history if when ordered he said to Lorgar

"i'm sorry I feel your pain and understand your anger let me help you build something that will be greater than anything i've or will ever do"

At least Dorn was their during the siege. So i'd say its Guilliman followed by Dorn.

They are all hypocrites with Angron being the only exception.

Angron is the only primarch who never drank the emperors kool aid.

The biggest hypocrites among primarchs are Russ The lion Curze and Mortarion.

Guilliman is far from my favorite primarch but he did'nt owe Lorgar anything for Monarchia.

godking wrote:

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
Most hypocritical Primarch? Without a doubt Dorn and Guilimium. Complaining about relatively low level atrocities committed during the Crusade but then Virus bombing half the Imperium after the heresy. Treating Alphariuous like he was a coward while at the same time hunkering down on Ultramar during the Heresy and running from Angron. The Emperor picks the Ultramarines to humiliate Lorgar for a reason, Guill might have changed history if when ordered he said to Lorgar

"i'm sorry I feel your pain and understand your anger let me help you build something that will be greater than anything i've or will ever do"

At least Dorn was their during the siege. So i'd say its Guilliman followed by Dorn.

They are all hypocrites with Angron being the only exception.

Angron is the only primarch who never drank the emperors kool aid.

The biggest hypocrites among primarchs are Russ The lion Curze and Mortarion.

Guilliman is far from my favorite primarch but he did'nt owe Lorgar anything for Monarchia.

Why are they hypocrites then?

He thought he proved that the Emperor was just as bad for killing him and therefor his actions were justified

The point was how the Imperium created him and his legion yet later wanted to rid themselves of him when he served his purpose. How wI as he a hypocrite, he even said he draped himself in sin.

He deplores the Alpha Legion tactics because they are all about deception and lack of trust, which is not the ideals that the imperium was meant to be built on.

He did'nt read Sun Zu then, war by nature is deception.

I have no idea why Dorn is hypocritical, he never made a bold statement and then vastly contradicted it. His main failing as a character is that he can seem a little Vanilla sometimes.

The same reason as Guill rebuking Angron and Curze and then Virus bombing a good portion of his own country.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:

He thought he proved that the Emperor was just as bad for killing him and therefor his actions were justified

The point was how the Imperium created him and his legion yet later wanted to rid themselves of him when he served his purpose. How wI as he a hypocrite, he even said he draped himself in sin

Most of his Legion admit that he was a hypocrite. He admitted he draped himself in sin long after his orginal ideas of punishing people to make them compliant. The screaming gallering did not teach any lesson to a weaken populace. It simply served to amuse him, the screams of the innocent to fuel his madness. The imperium didn't dispose of him because it didn't need him. It disposed of him because for 200 years he reaved across the Eastern Fringe murdering for the sake of murder. He taught a lesson to no one. Nobody even knew he let himself die thanks to Talos killing M'Shen (Which Curze knew would happen long before he actually died).

If the Emperor did'nt want the Night Lords to be monsters why did he use children born from underground prisons as the 8th legions first recruits. Curzes predictions usually weren't wrong what about how he said "I know what you intend for me" as Sahaal said "we obeyed every order". But at least he admitted that he was a murdering bastard, did Dorn ever, the most honest loyalist primarchs were Corax and the Khan.


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Also allowing himself to be killed was'nt about the Legion or the Imperium it was a message from son to father.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
If the Emperor didn't want the Night Lords to be monsters why did he use children born from underground prisons as the 8th legions first recruits. Curzes predictions usually weren't wrong what about how he said "I know what you intend for me" as Sahaal said "we obeyed every order". But at least he admitted that he was a murdering bastard, did Dorn ever, the most honest loyalist primarchs were Corax and the Khan.


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Also allowing himself to be killed was'nt about the Legion or the Imperium it was a message from son to father.

I'm not arguing the Emperor's position, I actually believe that the Big E was the ultimate hypocrite. Sticking to the Primarchs though, I still choose Curze.
He believed he was a monster so that the majority could enjoy peace. Crush criminals and break their spirits and they won't prey on the weak. By the Heresy however, he was killing worlds for the sake of it, becoming not the noble monster that soaks up necessary evil, but the very kind of aimless monster he despised. He taught no lesson when he burned Nostromo for he left no survivors to learn from it.
Nostromo was not the ultimate demonstration of evil being punished, it was the mark of his code's failure. He proved that when you rule by fear, the downtrodden will defy you as soon as you turn your back. Instead of realising what he had become, he simply burned the world and decided to terrorize humanity instead. His own martyrdom was a weak gesture of a lunatic who wanted to die.

I really don't understand your comments on Dorn, could you please elaborate? I'm genuinely interested in exactly what codes you think he held then broke, what "crimes" he committed.
Also, honesty isn't the opposite of hypocrisy, Alpharius was full of lies and secrets but he was actually fairly true to his own agenda. The ends justify the means, and all that.
Curze was honest about what he thought he was but he was a hypocrite because he perpetrated the very actions he preached against.

This is the last i'll say on Curze he taught the lesson that individuals as well as nations are punished for their actions and that the punishers frequently become the punished. Japan invaded its neighbors putting whole cities to death, America put Japanese cities to death, Japan was punished, America was punished in turn by occupation soldiers suffering radiation sickness and now lives in fear of an enemy nation getting weapons of mass destruction. I'm not saying this is my philosophy but this is it in a nutshell.

Oh an Dorn had a post heresy tantrum and put whole worlds to death in grief because of big E being a a quadriplegic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and Curze really only had three options with Nostromo.
1: allow his Legion to become even more poisoned
2: be the only Primarch that could'nt control his own home world at a time when the other primarchs were attacking him for his legions conduct
3: burn his home world

Ironclad Warlord wrote:

He thought he proved that the Emperor was just as bad for killing him and therefor his actions were justified

The point was how the Imperium created him and his legion yet later wanted to rid themselves of him when he served his purpose. How wI as he a hypocrite, he even said he draped himself in sin.

He deplores the Alpha Legion tactics because they are all about deception and lack of trust, which is not the ideals that the imperium was meant to be built on.

He did'nt read Sun Zu then, war by nature is deception.

I have no idea why Dorn is hypocritical, he never made a bold statement and then vastly contradicted it. His main failing as a character is that he can seem a little Vanilla sometimes.

The same reason as Guill rebuking Angron and Curze and then Virus bombing a good portion of his own country.

Guilliman does not mind decieving your foe, what he does not like is funding counter insurgencies that are just as likely to bite you once the enemy is defeated. The Alpha Legion pays no heed to actually needing to incorporate a world after victory. They forment insurection in a way that basically insures there are cells who will end up biting you after victory.

They are evry negative sterotype you have ever heard about the CIA/MI6/other you have ever heard. I liked Legion as a book, but Alpharius's idea of war leaves a messy clean up period that you will never know if it is over.

Alpharius has never read his Machiavelli.

If you want to see what the Alpha Legion is based on read Mao Zedong's book on Guerrilla warfare.


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The Ultra Marines are more Clausewitz set piece style warfare. Thats why I think they made them rivals because Clauzewets is the western model of war while the Art of War which the Alpha Legion and Mao's army are partially based on.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
If you want to see what the Alpha Legion is based on read Mao Zedong's book on Guerrilla warfare.


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The Ultra Marines are more Clausewitz set piece style warfare. Thats why I think they made them rivals because Clauzewets is the western model of war while the Art of War which the Alpha Legion and Mao's army are partially based on.

The problem is the Alpha legion isn't exactly Art of War, they take pride, and at times they relish the fight and change their styles so they don't really get bored with it, and at times before their pride was hit by Gulliman they played around with different techniques due to their pride, later on to prove Gulliman wrong they begun instituting insurgencies, outfitting cells without devoted loyalty, and generally things that while they may be effective in the short run, don't work when you want to take the planet back and keep a proper hold of it.

Gulliman may have been many things, but Logistics, Planning for the aftermath, and making sure a world is properly outfitted and ready so they can defend themselves as loyalists is a primary concern for them. Alpha Legion took planets quickly, but destabilized them.

I'll have to think on it but as much as I dislike both Dorn and Guilliman, I don't think I could say either were the most hypocritical of the primarchs. A sense of arrogance has always seemed prevailing to me in the both of them, but as for hypocrisy... can't really say they were the most hypocritical of the bunch. At least not yet.

But in the fanfic daughters of the primarchs shenanigans on 1d4chan, Dorn is easily the most hypocritical. So there is that.

pm713 wrote:

godking wrote:

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
Most hypocritical Primarch? Without a doubt Dorn and Guilimium. Complaining about relatively low level atrocities committed during the Crusade but then Virus bombing half the Imperium after the heresy. Treating Alphariuous like he was a coward while at the same time hunkering down on Ultramar during the Heresy and running from Angron. The Emperor picks the Ultramarines to humiliate Lorgar for a reason, Guill might have changed history if when ordered he said to Lorgar

"i'm sorry I feel your pain and understand your anger let me help you build something that will be greater than anything i've or will ever do"

At least Dorn was their during the siege. So i'd say its Guilliman followed by Dorn.

They are all hypocrites with Angron being the only exception.

Angron is the only primarch who never drank the emperors kool aid.

The biggest hypocrites among primarchs are Russ The lion Curze and Mortarion.

Guilliman is far from my favorite primarch but he did'nt owe Lorgar anything for Monarchia.

Why are they hypocrites then?

Russ : dishonest two faced hypocrite who KNOWS that his wolf priests draw from the same well of power as the pre heresy Thousand sons but choses to lie about it. Speaks about honour but has no problem with crying and complaining to daddy about his brothers. Presumes to lecture Angron about warfare and savagery yet is only barely better then Angron (Russ deserved that beatdown).

The lion : Preaches honour but is easily the most vindictive and secretive of all the primarchs.

Mortarion : More stupid then hypocritical.

Curze : Murderous bastard whos own philosophy failed horribly on Nostromo once he left the planet . Despises his sons as depraved murderers yet is the biggest murderer of them all. Despises his brothers yet every brother achieved moe then he did. Wasted his life for a ridiculous lesson. Curze is the poser goth of the Primarchs. Curze is easily the biggest wast of potential as a primarch his gravestone should read { I died a disapointing failure who achieved nothing of note}

Russ is the biggest hypocrite of them all: "Psykers are forbidden, because the Emperor decreed it! Except for mine, because I say they get their powers from nature. Lalala, I'm a special snow flake who is never wrong, but I'm gonna break my brother's back because he kept using psychic powers. Totally not cool! Master Wolf Psyker, what will the weather be tomorrow? Cold? But no snow? Whip up a storm, I want to go sledding!"

Fething hate that guy. Actually, all the wolves with their superior attitude and "We can do everything nobody else is allowed to do because wolves, bitch."

i guess so.

Does the Emperor himself count? He wanted an age of reason with no gods being worshiped.

He wanted an end to power of the Choas Gods. Yet by keeping his own Primarchs in the dark he let Magus fall. Tzeentch even said if the Imperium had the Wolves and the 1000 Sons then Chaos couldn't stand up to them. He had to get rid of one or the other.

I also hate Leman Russ and the Space Wolves. It was so arrogant for them to attack the Thousand Sons for doing exactly the same thing they were doing as far as psychic powers.
Reading Prospero Burns made me hate them even more for seeing how self-centered they all are. They all think they are the greatest thing to bless humanity.

this isnt about who people dont like so lets not go primarch bashing.

hypocritally the only one i can see is curze but even then thats a long shot because to me it just seems like he is changing his mind in line with the madness that takes him. its easy to say Rob or rogal because they done a bunch of virus bombing but that was necessary if they hadnt then the imperium never would have recovered (dont say it never did).

there are a bunch of ways to look at this. the lion wasnt hypocritical at all never once did he say "dont keep secrets"

the khan was confused

Angron is as seeming ly open as a book but he hides his pain

Vulkan... just Poor poor vulkan

curze has been covered in great detail

magnus was arrogant not hypocritical

Russ isnt hypocritical he is loyal beyond belief

Horus... Hubris

do i have to go on? none of them were hypocritical. it is easy to mistake hypocrasy for various other forms of self aggranisment and what not.

Russ and his sorcerers.

thats not hypocritical thats a l;ack of understanding. to him it isnt hypocrasy because he doesnt understand that it is all the same. he sees it as natural because they shoot lightning rather that tear open holes in reality.

 MrBlackledge wrote:
thats not hypocritical thats a l;ack of understanding. to him it isnt hypocrasy because he doesnt understand that it is all the same. he sees it as natural because they shoot lightning rather that tear open holes in reality.

Dude, did you even READ Prospero Burns? Or A Thousand Sons? He is a huge hypocrite. Never mind that a bunch of us dislike him as well, but that book shows quite well how big of a toolbox he is. And "loyal"? Emperor tells him to bring Magnus in, Horus tells him to kill Magnus instead. He decides to kill him. Yeah, loyal...right. He has no issue killing a brother when it involves ignoring the Emperor because the Warmaster, 2ND IN COMMAND, tells him to.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Emperor tells him to bring Magnus in, Horus tells him to kill Magnus instead. He decides to kill him. Yeah, loyal...right. He has no issue killing a brother when it involves ignoring the Emperor because the Warmaster, 2ND IN COMMAND, tells him to.

Do we know this as the exact sequence of events? I was always under the impression the order to capture was sent to via the Emperor and was either meant to be relayed via Horus, who then changed it before Russ got the message, or Horus out right intercepted the message and changed it, before sending it on.

However I can't find a source the explicitly states what happened either way here (Relay, interception or countermanding the Emperor).

 timetowaste85 wrote:

 MrBlackledge wrote:
thats not hypocritical thats a l;ack of understanding. to him it isnt hypocrasy because he doesnt understand that it is all the same. he sees it as natural because they shoot lightning rather that tear open holes in reality.

Dude, did you even READ Prospero Burns? Or A Thousand Sons? He is a huge hypocrite. Never mind that a bunch of us dislike him as well, but that book shows quite well how big of a toolbox he is. And "loyal"? Emperor tells him to bring Magnus in, Horus tells him to kill Magnus instead. He decides to kill him. Yeah, loyal...right. He has no issue killing a brother when it involves ignoring the Emperor because the Warmaster, 2ND IN COMMAND, tells him to.

Well, you're skewing it a bit. Russ never received the Emperor's original orders. The Emperor sent the orders to Horus to relay them to Russ, but Horus changed them before giving them to Russ. Russ thought the order to kill Magnus came directly from the Emperor.

But I agree on the hypocrite part.

 Orblivion wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:

 MrBlackledge wrote:
thats not hypocritical thats a l;ack of understanding. to him it isnt hypocrasy because he doesnt understand that it is all the same. he sees it as natural because they shoot lightning rather that tear open holes in reality.

Dude, did you even READ Prospero Burns? Or A Thousand Sons? He is a huge hypocrite. Never mind that a bunch of us dislike him as well, but that book shows quite well how big of a toolbox he is. And "loyal"? Emperor tells him to bring Magnus in, Horus tells him to kill Magnus instead. He decides to kill him. Yeah, loyal...right. He has no issue killing a brother when it involves ignoring the Emperor because the Warmaster, 2ND IN COMMAND, tells him to.

Well, you're skewing it a bit. Russ never received the Emperor's original orders. The Emperor sent the orders to Horus to relay them to Russ, but Horus changed them before giving them to Russ. Russ thought the order to kill Magnus came directly from the Emperor.

But I agree on the hypocrite part.

Course Russ kinda wanted to kill him all along, so it's not like he had much decision beyond that.

 timetowaste85 wrote:

 MrBlackledge wrote:
thats not hypocritical thats a l;ack of understanding. to him it isnt hypocrasy because he doesnt understand that it is all the same. he sees it as natural because they shoot lightning rather that tear open holes in reality.

Dude, did you even READ Prospero Burns? Or A Thousand Sons? He is a huge hypocrite. Never mind that a bunch of us dislike him as well, but that book shows quite well how big of a toolbox he is. And "loyal"? Emperor tells him to bring Magnus in, Horus tells him to kill Magnus instead. He decides to kill him. Yeah, loyal...right. He has no issue killing a brother when it involves ignoring the Emperor because the Warmaster, 2ND IN COMMAND, tells him to.

Dude I did READ both those books!! in prospero burns Russ never wanted to sanction magnus he just wanted to bring him in but magnus was feeling sorry for himself. Russ listened to Horus because horus was named warmaster. why? so horus could deal with the crusade and the legions. the emperor wanted the sons brought to heel and left it to horus to do that as was his job. its his loyalty that lets him down in the end. his loyalty to the imperium.

What does people disliking him have to do with anything? all that does is take the validity out of your argument because you are emotionally compromised thus giving a bias answer. im not a massive fan of russ to be honest but he isnt being a hypocrit he is just misunderstanding the fact that all psychic abilitys are born of the warp. all he sees is the fact that the abilities of his wolves seem Natural e.g lightning, conjuring storms out of nothing.

Does anyone else not see what a giant tool the Emperor is?

Magnus "Father, Horus is going to betray you, we have to stop him"

Emperor "I told you no magic Magnus, I'm going to tell Horus to deal with you"

Magnus "But Horus is the evil one"

Emperor," nonsense, I will not even look into this accusation and assess the situation fairly, I will punish you and completely ignore the possibility that you could be right, even though it would be relatively easy to just recall Horus and yourself to earth and you could discuss this logically"

Considering that most of the Primarch's that turned was because of his doing to begin with, Emperor was no psychologist to say the least.

Also in Galaxy in Flames I am 99% percent certain that Fulgrim tells Horus that the Wolves have been dispatched to take out Magnus. Horus goes from panic to relief as he realises Magnus's gambit has failed and Horus's main opposition has been taken out of the fight. He then gives a call to Russ to encourage that Magnus never makes it back to earth.

i think everyone has seen what a giant tool the emperor is. so manay things could have been avoided if he had just bothered to listen. I think that the emperor wanted the heresy to happen to be honest. its was all part of his master plan to be worshipped just went a little bit skewif when he got mega deathed by horus.