Updating the Assault Rules (First Post Updated)

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**ClockworkZion**

Every once in a while I get a hair brained idea that I just need to play with a little. This is one of those times.

OLD STUFF:

Spoiler:

Now other than random charge ranges (which I honestly don't mind much) and Overwatch (which I also don't mind that much as a concept of, but we're not going into that here) there have been some I've seen brought up before that'd I think could be expanded and changed.

The first is the Weapon Skill chart. Frankly it's a bit sad and really limited and doesn't do much to really support the lore behind some of these really great melee fighter characters. So I tweaked it:

So yes, it goes from hitting on 2+ to hitting on 6+ Now as you can see, a number of these entries have two numbers. The second number is a re-roll value. Essentially the differences in skill are high enough between the combatants that the more skilled combatant can essentially "recover" their attack when it fails against their target and turn even a miss into a deadly strike. You'll note that it doesn't get any worse than a 6+ however though as there are limits to how punishing you can be to the lower WS models (no one wants to be hitting on a 6+ and then rolling the hits to see if they go through on a 6+ after all) so it does decrease how many attacks models will push through when attacking higher WS models, it doesn't outright put them into a position where they can't hit.

The second change I have is two fold, the first has to do with Sweeping Advances. Now the leadership check works the same, as does the initiative test, but the difference is what happens if the fleeing unit is caught: instead of being destroyed (because who hasn't seen a unit of twenty models turn into a puff of smoke) the pursuing unit(s) get to make a bonus attack with every model getting 1 attack using the same weapons, statlines, ect. They still need to roll to hit and wound and the fleeing unit still gets any saves they'd normally get. But this is where the second part comes in: if this attack destroys the fleeing unit then the pursuing unit counts has having Overrun the fleeing unit. Otherwise the fleeing unit escapes and falls back as normal.

When a unit Overruns another unit (either by completely destroying a unit completely in the assault phase, or by finishing off a fleeing unit completely) the controlling player can choose to try to have them then consolidate into an enemy unit as if they were charging. All charge reactions occur as normal, as do all Overwatch restrictions, and the unit still has to roll to try and make the charge. If successful then continue the Assault phase as normal as if it was a new combat. A unit can only Overrun once per assault phase though.

Additionally units who were charged and wipe out an enemy unit may Overrun even though it is not their controlling player's turn. This means that if a Squad of Space Marines is charged by Genestealers, and wins combat and successfully Overruns the Genestealers they can then make a charge move against a nearby unit of Termagaunts if their controlling player wishes.

Lastly, Overrun is not triggered by destroying a unit through Overwatch.

So thoughts, input, angry letters about how this should never be implemented in a game ever?

UPDATE: So in an attempt to curb things and make them more streamlined and generally more balanced here is the 3rd revision of the WS chart (I realized I made an error for the WS section vs WS2 and had to fix that so this version now exists):

Yes, the re-rolls stayed, but now they only exist for models who are triple another model's WS or better (except WS1, they got a small reprieve from WS 3 and 4 and don't suffer that until WS5 hits them). WS4 gets hit by it because the rare WS10 model should be pounding WS4 models more effectively than they do. Plus the Bloodthirster deserves to be scarier to Marines (even if the models don't feel fear the players should fear that model a bit more than they do

).

Sweeping Advance:

If a unit loses combat and breaks the unit that won combat may choose to pursue the fleeing unit. If the pursuing unit catches the fleeing unit the pursuing unit gains a free round of attacks for all of the models that were engaged in combat, that are resolved as if it was a normal round of combat. If the fleeing unit is not destroyed by this round of combat the two units remain locked in combat, otherwise the pursuing unit consolidates as normal.

As for Overrun, how about this:

If a unit successfully kills a unit it charges during the assault phase in the fight sub-phase or by Sweeping Advance on the turn that it charges it counts as having Overrun the charged unit and may make a D6+3" consolidation move that may bring it into contact with an enemy unit. If the enemy unit has not Overwatched, and is not locked in combat it may do so as normal. If the Overrunning unit has models remaining after resolving the Overwatch then the two units count as being locked in combat and will continue combat in the following Assault Phase.

**morganfreeman**

The over-run thing is how it used to be (well, back in 3ED when I started playing you wouldn't get the bonus attack for charging... I think) and is something I sorely, sorely miss.

It strikes me as really crippling and just kind of silly in how hard not being able to re-engage via over-run / consolidation moves is for CC amries. It rewards what would otherwise be poor play on the part of an army that wants to soley shoot by letting them just turn around and blow you away the next turn, even if they were holding hands with the destroyed unit. It's especially silly against armies which also want to be in combat, as they'll get to unload their guns and then get the benefit of a charge immediately after.

EDIT: I also like the new weapon-skill table and very much agree. It's pretty silly that a lowly WS2 grot has the same chance of hitting Lelith Hesperax and her WS9 as a much more rugged and adept WS4 boy. Let alone a monster like Ghaz'kul in a unit with a Waaaagh banner to buff him up I kind of worry about the doubling-up to hit though, as that could get pretty nasty.. But the nagain, it seems like it would make the most difference when you have some melee monster chewing through a tar-pit, in which case it still makes a lot of sense..

**ClockworkZion**

I toned down the old Overrun just a little though, and made it work both ways, so that you only get one extra close combat, not a theoretical infinite number, and Overwatch makes it riskier if you're already a bit chewed up when you come out of combat.

And true, the re-rolls are pretty strong but are only really strong when you get a combat monster like a Bloodthirster slamming into a mob of Guard, or something along those lines. There aren't that many really big, scary things out there that do have the combat power to really take advantage of the upper end of the chart with most of them have a WS of 6 or less and only a few exceptions really running around (most of which are named characters).

**Slaanesh-Devotee**

Would you consider an Overrun assault taking place in the following assault phase?

And are you saying I can Overrun 2D6?

**ClockworkZion**

Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:
Would you consider an Overrun assault taking place in the following assault phase?

Do you mean like Overrunning during your opponent's turn, or having to wait until the next Assault phase while standing around and potentially getting shot? Because I went with the first one not the later, and I apologize if it didn't come across clear.

Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:
And are you saying I can Overrun 2D6?

I haven't 100% committed to that mentally, but as it stands yes, only because a D6" consolidation charge into combat while giving the unit being charged Overwatch seems like it'd fail most of the time unless you got lucky with charging a Tau or Guard gunline army.

EDIT: I should clarify though, the Overrun replaces the consolidation for the unit so it's basically a D6" bonus over regular consolidation to offset for the fact their going to get shot at most of the time.

**Slaanesh-Devotee**

I mean, it seems weird to me to fight two separate combats in one phase. I like the idea of Overrunning in general, but would think they are locked in combat but actually fight in the following phase.

2D6 seems hefty. I suppose people do have overwatch to defend them somewhat...

**koooaei**

So, basically, you want to buff elitist's mellee even more compared to horde mellee?

What are gona kanz with ws2 do? How are gona orkses kill daemonprinces if they hit on 6+ and they hit me on 2+/4+?.. It's allready a tough matchup cause i can't shoot them down even if i go full shootas and every fight vs flying circus ends up in mellee. And what about means of making you ws1 like blind and invisibility(?).

If you're making ws a more valuable stat - you got to increase the price of high-ws models and decrease the price of low-ws. Do you want firewarriors and crysis suits to be cheaper? Do you want daemon princes and death company to cost more?

**ClockworkZion**

koooaei wrote:
Your ws chart will totally kill my ork's army's ability to threaten daemons. Most daemon players spam flying dp. If i hit on 6-s that's just an auto-loose when i face theese guyz. It's allready hard to deal with them but if they get SUCH benefits...well, i don't know. All kanz are instantly useless since they've got ws2. Most tau are defenceless in mellee since ws2 once again.

If you're adding such chart, you got to reprice troops. Make low ws troops cheaper and high-ws more expensive. Is it worth it?

Generally yes it would be.

Tau don't need a repointing though as their shooting ability in general trumps their inability to properly fist fight people. Orks are mostly pretty relly cheap and really on quantity over quality for everything, maybe it's because I'm used to Sisters but Boyz aren't exactly expensive and have a decent WS. Some of the more expensive ones need a point reduction in general though.

We also havea lot of dedicated melee units who aren't worth the points you pay, especially in this edition, larelgy because their paying through the teeth for the ability to hitWS4 or less on 3s. It's not a great place to be frankly and the system could use an overhaul.

And the flipside of the double assault is either either forcing players to remember which units that charged the previous turn for bonuses and Hammer of Wrath or they get taken away completely for that second combat.

The randomness of the 2D6 makes it a real big risk/reward move to try and make that charge right after getting chewed on a bit too. Do you risk the charge you may fail to try and get into combat again or do you stay out to reposition for a different target on yojr turn instead? It adds a lot of new possibilities to include losing combat, being overrun and having one of your nits tied up by a dedicated combat unit you were hoping to tie up or charge to mitigate it's killing potential a bit.

**koooaei**

So how much would you suggest ws2 models in ork army to cost (grots, kanz)? And daemon princes with ws9? You know, this matchup with ork boyz vs a daemon prince in mellee is an autoloose to boyz. My damage output is 2 times lower and DP's hit rate 2 times higher.

And what about Daemon prince vs any elitist's mellee with ws 4 or 5?..

**ZebioLizard2**

koooaei wrote:
So, basically, you want to buff elitist's mellee even more compared to horde mellee?

What are gona kanz with ws2 do? How are gona orkses kill daemonprinces if they hit on 6+ and they hit me on 2+/4+?.. It's allready a tough matchup cause i can't shoot them down even if i go full shootas and every fight vs flying circus ends up in mellee. And what about means of making you ws1 like blind and invisibility(?).

If you're making ws a more valuable stat - you got to increase the price of high-ws models and decrease the price of low-ws. Do you want firewarriors and crysis suits to be cheaper? Do you want daemon princes and death company to cost more?

Kanz and Tau are supposed to be shooty, not to mention WS is far weaker then BS, but yet its still costed over it (See Berzerkers for the greatest example).

**koooaei**

Why the hell do kanz possess dreadnought weapons than.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just think how strongly you buff flying circus and make mellee not matter at all when killing them. You're making a game even more shooty with such changes cause you either got to be a super-ws model to kill super-ws models or super-shooty to kill them before mellee. Ain't it even more disballancing?

**ZebioLizard2**

koooaei wrote:
Why the hell do kanz possess dreadnaught weapons than.

Cause orks like building things with melee in mind regardless, it's still a model with only A2, WS2, and no option for any other melee.

Just think how strongly you buff flying circus and make mellee not matter at all when killing them. You're making a game even more shooty with such changes cause you either got to be a super-ws model to kill super-ws models or super-shooty to kill them before mellee. Ain't it even more disballancing?

Or you can still hit them on 6's, and hope for a good shot, FMC are used because they are useless otherwise.

Not to mention it'd finally make WS a vital stat to concentrate for once.

**koooaei**

Vital stats should cost appropriately. Otherwise you've just made a bunch of armies totally incapable of dealing with such stuff like flying circus which is allready quite powerful.

You're just making some mellee units hugely more powerful vs all other mellee units while remaining the same vs shooting and some mellee units totally useless in mellee...Ain't mellee suffering enough this edition?

**Dakkamite**

I think WS 6 hitting WS 4 on 2+ and being hit on 6+ is a bit much. I do agree however with bringing in 2+/6+ values to melee.

With regards to overrun, maybe cause the winning side to sweep however many models they won combat by? And I'd definitely say, that the consolidation move should apply whether they finish off the unit or if it flees - doesn't make any sense for a fleeing unit to stop the consolidation at all.

Consolidation if winning on the charge is a pretty solid rule IMO, though I'd want to see Consolidation after winning a combat first and see if thats too big of a buff.

**koooaei**

I do like sweeping advance ideas and consolidation into another combat. But i'm just pointing out that ws table is too unballanced and i'd say that the existing one is better.

Btw, it might be interesting to make sweeping advance something like:
"If the sweeping advance suckseeds - the loosing side becomes terrified (ws1) and the winning side piles in (maybe this pile in move can be made 6') and gets another round of striking. The loosing side makes a fall back move afterwards".

That actually feels quite logical to me. The enemie's morale is broken so they turn back and run as fast as they can and you try to slaughter as much as you can still reach with every kill distanting you from running foes. Don't know about that ws1 stuff - probably autohits are better here. Needs playtesting to see what's preferable, 3' or 6' pile in, striking vs ws1 or autohits. Maybe the enemy should get some penalties to regrouping after that. Maybe just make it like if there are <25% left.

Also, it's logical that faster models have better sweeping advance chances but i'd not go in for this route yet cause bikes and beasts are allready buffed enough.

**Ashiraya**

I like this.

**Gwaihirsbrother**

I think the WS changes are a little too extreme. I would tone it down a bit so that things change when you double an opponent's WS+1. So WS3 hits WS1 on 2+, WS5 hits WS2 on 2+, WS7 hits WS3 on 2+, WS9 hits WS4 on 2+.

Or maybe tripple the WS to get the 2+

**ClockworkZion**

koooaei wrote:
Vital stats should cost appropriately. Otherwise you've just made a bunch of armies totally incapable of dealing with such stuff like flying circus which is allready quite powerful.

You're just making some mellee units hugely more powerful vs all other mellee units while remaining the same vs shooting and some mellee units totally useless in mellee...Ain't mellee suffering enough this edition?

The Flying Circus is largely an army built around shooting and dealt with by being shot. You can't melee them most of the time and they don't want to be melee'd (and in the cast of Nids most of their stuff is WS3 at most, and Daemons don't have that many FMCs available to them to really go full "flying circus"). I think you're honestly overreacting a bit at the idea in terms of what it'll do to Orks. Orks don't need every model to come down in points, just a few of the bigger ones (like the Warboss who is a bit over cost for what he brings to the table in my book)

Shooting is already a strong focus this edition (and frankly makes sense it's a sci fi wargame, shooting should be important) but melee has a serious lack of weight and teeth and anyone who is a half decent melee combatant misses a third of the time (unless your Kharn because you're so good you always hit someone) which doesn't really reflect how frankly badass these fighters should be on the table. Giving the dedicated melee units some teeth again will go a long way to making them worth the buckets of points you pay for them anyways.

Dakkamite wrote:
I think WS 6 hitting WS 4 on 2+ and being hit on 6+ is a bit much. I do agree however with bringing in 2+/6+ values to melee.

That's fair. The spread is basically something I hammered out in a matter of a few minutes and am still thinking about, which is one of the reasons I opened the topic. I'll try to play with it a little bit.

Dakkamite wrote:
With regards to overrun, maybe cause the winning side to sweep however many models they won combat by? And I'd definitely say, that the consolidation move should apply whether they finish off the unit or if it flees - doesn't make any sense for a fleeing unit to stop the consolidation at all.

With numerous bits of fluff saying that various armies only make tactical retreats when necessary and very few just "run for the hills" when breaking away I don't want to just have models cut down automatically. At least making it look like they're fighting as they retreat (a roll to hit, wound and then saves) gives them some dignity back instead of a unit of 30 Guardsmen being mowed down by a Biomancy'd Daemon Prince they can't hurt.

Dakkamite wrote:
Consolidation if winning on the charge is a pretty solid rule IMO, though I'd want to see Consolidation after winning a combat first and see if thats too big of a buff.

That's pretty fair. I may tinker with that too.

Gwaihirsbrother wrote:
I think the WS changes are a little too extreme. I would tone it down a bit so that things change when you double an opponent's WS+1. So WS3 hits WS1 on 2+, WS5 hits WS2 on 2+, WS7 hits WS3 on 2+, WS9 hits WS4 on 2+.

Not a bad idea actually.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
So since I had a few free moments this morning I went ahead and hashed out a new table. Basically when you're WS 2x+1 you hit on 2s and are hit on 6s and when your triple the opponent's WS you get a re-roll to hit.

**Hollismason**

I really like your changes a lot they just seem to make more "sense". The idea that a high weapon skill gives you a better roll makes more sense than it does currently.

Now if only one could figure out how to get rid of the need to roll 40 dice when attacking, like surely some sort of multiplier or something could be applied or the attack statistic used to determine how many saves you make.

**Jambles**

Hollismason wrote:
Now if only one could figure out how to get rid of the need to roll 40 dice when attacking, like surely some sort of multiplier or something could be applied or the attack statistic used to determine how many saves you make.

Maybe I'm alone here, but I happen to like rolling a boatload of dice when my boys charge into combat...

I like the changes to Weapon Skill and the reintroduction of charging a second unit after winning combat. I have a few thoughts and suggestions:
I would say that the second combat should be done in the following assault phase and not the same phase. Also, what about only being able to overrun into a second unit if you win combat on a charge? The charging unit's momentum carries them into another unit and all that. It means winning that charge could be all the more devastating, while it makes units that won't break in melee that much more useful by preventing a devastating CC unit from overrunning into another unit.
Losing extra units after breaking from combat instead of wiping the entire unit makes sense. I like the suggestion that the player lose additional wounds (models?) by how much he lost combat by.
I do like having 6+/2+ in the WS chart, but I also feel that the extra rerolls are pretty overpowering, and also add an unnecessary layer of complexity that isn't consistent with the other charts. Units with extra-high BS don't get rerolls to hit, etc.

Just my 2 cents. Although I like that in the new edition the designers opted to make melee combat a "high-risk, high-reward" option, I think with a few small changes like these it actually makes it feel more like they intended and less like melee is too unreliable.

**ClockworkZion**

I'm on my phone at the moment but I'll reply more later, but you might want to look at the BS chart again Jambles. They do get rerolls at high BS levels.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And my follow up (that I've included in the first post:
UPDATE: So in an attempt to curb things and make them more streamlined and generally more balanced here is the 3rd revision of the WS chart (I realized I made an error for the WS section vs WS2 and had to fix that so this version now exists):

Yes, the re-rolls stayed, but now they only exist for models who are triple another model's WS or better (except WS1, they got a small reprieve from WS 3 and 4 and don't suffer that until WS5 hits them). And WS4 gets hit with it because frankly the Bloodthirster deserves to be scarier than he is at the moment to more units.

Sweeping Advance:

If a unit loses combat and breaks the unit that won combat may choose to pursue the fleeing unit. If the pursuing unit catches the fleeing unit the pursuing unit gains a free round of attacks for all of the models that were engaged in combat, that are resolved as if it was a normal round of combat. If the fleeing unit is not destroyed by this round of combat the two units remain locked in combat, otherwise the pursuing unit consolidates as normal.

As for Overrun, how about this:

If a unit successfully kills a unit it charges during the assault phase in the fight sub-phase or by Sweeping Advance on the turn that it charges it counts as having Overrun the charged unit and may make a D6+3" consolidation move that may bring it into contact with an enemy unit. If the enemy unit has not Overwatched, and is not locked in combat it may do so as normal. If the Overrunning unit has models remaining after resolving the Overwatch then the two units count as being locked in combat and will continue combat in the following Assault Phase.

**Jambles**

ClockworkZion wrote:
I'm on my phone at the moment but I'll reply more later, but you might want to look at the BS chart again Jambles. They do get rerolls at high BS levels.

Holy smokes, you're 100% right. How did I never notice that?

My apologies.

**ClockworkZion**

Jambles wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
I'm on my phone at the moment but I'll reply more later, but you might want to look at the BS chart again Jambles. They do get rerolls at high BS levels.

Holy smokes, you're 100% right. How did I never notice that?

My apologies.

Because there aren't a lot of BS6 or better models running around?

Seriously though no big deal. We're all only human after all.

**koooaei**

ClockworkZion wrote:
koooaei wrote:
Vital stats should cost appropriately. Otherwise you've just made a bunch of armies totally incapable of dealing with such stuff like flying circus which is allready quite powerful.

You're just making some mellee units hugely more powerful vs all other mellee units while remaining the same vs shooting and some mellee units totally useless in mellee...Ain't mellee suffering enough this edition?

The Flying Circus is largely an army built around shooting and dealt with by being shot. You can't melee them most of the time and they don't want to be melee'd

Daemon princes get ws 9 for the solely purpose of being hit on a 5+ with ws4 or lower models. That's it. Making them autohitting stuff and being literally immune to mellee is not a good thing. No hope of killing avatar of khaine or any khorne daemon in mellee.

And what about space wolve's guyz with ws3, scouts with ws3, guards with ws 3... you know, you should reprice a huge variety of models to maintain ballance. That's not a good 'fix' by no means.

With your current table all ws 6+ models should be brought to ws5 and ws 2 to ws3 to maintain even a portion of ballance.

Once again, tell me, what's the point of making mellee-oriented models unkillable in mellee?.. It's only gona force boring gunlinish approach even more. There will be literally no option of making assault-oriented armies that don't have ws8-9 models. Cause you know that you can run into someone with ws9 and auto-loose no matter what.

**ClockworkZion**

koooaei wrote:
than lower daemonprince's ws to 5 and it'll be fine with your table.

I don't see why a mortal with the power of a chaos god flowing through them making them something more than human should have to get reduced in WS to make you happy. They SHOULD be dangerous in combat. Punching FMCs as never really been a solution I've heard for killing them. From my understanding getting them to fall then shooting them with the big guns has been the trick.

koooaei wrote:
And what about space wolve's guyz with ws3, scouts with ws3, guards with ws 3... you know, you should reprice a huge variety of models

Scouts and humans who are both pretty cheap and have more going for them than just how well they punch things. You're reducing everything else these units can do down to their ability to punch things and it's frankly a lot of hyperbole. The game is heavily centered on shooting at this point and the expensive dedicated combat units need some teeth back to make them worth the truck load of points you spend on them.

And frankly I don't see the point in making every single thing the game cheaper just because they're not that great in combat (and already weren't being charged much if anything for what abilities they -do- have). And it's not like there aren't other things these armies get to balance things out either, or is it suddenly time to pretend this is 3rd edition and close combat can and will overturn the whole game just because it's a little decent?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hitting on 6s =/= unkillable. Especially when blobbed by 30+ Guard or Boys. Look at how many attacks most of these models actually get, even on the charge, and how the debuffs to sweeping advances make it impossible to them to just wipe out a unit if they win combat. Tarpits still work, in fact they work better because you can't just break them and sweep 30+ models off the board with Kharn.

**koooaei**

K i see that you don't actually care bout ballance that much. Maybe playtest it and post the results? The first match i propose you to do is orks vs flying circus. Than CSM vs flying circus.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ClockworkZion wrote:
.
The game is heavily centered on shooting at this point and the expensive dedicated combat units need some teeth back to make them worth the truck load of points you spend on them.

You understand that you're buffing one mellee units vs other mellee units in fact? This ws changes do nothing vs shooting. Shooters still die at the same rate as if there were no changes. But now dedicated mellee units can't do a heck vs other dedicated mellee units.

**ClockworkZion**

koooaei wrote:
K i see that you don't actually care bout ballance that much. Maybe playtest it and post the results? The first match i propose you to do is orks vs flying circus. Than CSM vs flying circus.

Yes because Flying Circus is the only kind of list anyone ever plays ever.

Why are you trying to outpunch a Flying Circus list anyways? Fill the sky with Loota shots to start with and when they fall, fill them with Shootas until dead. Also Dakka Jets that WAAAAGH!

And CSM have the Helturkey, one of the best anti-other flying things in the game with S7-Ignores-Cover-Vector-Strikes. And DakkaFiends. And filling the board with too many Cultists for those FMCs to ever manage to kill (especially if their Zombies). And allied Soul Grinders, and FMCs of their own (like the Bloodthirster).

Seriously it's like you're trying to trash talk this idea by choosing the worst possible way to handle that list. Not to mention it sounds a lot like you're real problem isn't with the assault rules but with the FMC rules. Why not come up with better rules for those and fliers instead of trying to take your vendetta against those rules out on my idea?

**koooaei**

No offence, i'm just proposing the most-often met list with high vs models as an example. You can also look at captains and chaos lords with ws6 vs ws4 models. And my gaming experience as orks vs it. I'm trying to bring it to you.

You're not buffing mellee vs shooting. You're buffing mellee vs mellee. It's fine if that's your first-place intention. I just thought that you want to buff assault overall. And not make one assault units worse vs other.

**ClockworkZion**

koooaei wrote:
No offence, i'm just proposing the most-often met list with high vs models as an example. And my gaming experience as orks vs it. I'm trying to bring it to you.

It comes off as more a vendetta against FMCs. And with Tau and Eldar isn't not as prevelant as it was for a little while. The meta largely moved on for most people. And even if they come back you don't throw your weakness at their strengths to beat a list you use your strengths to beat their weaknesses (like making FMCs fall down and go "boom" and then once they've fallen down filling them with a LOT of new "speed holes").

Spoiler:

koooaei wrote:
You're not buffing mellee vs shooting. You're buffing mellee vs mellee. It's fine if that's your first-place intention. I just thought that you want to buff assault overall. And not make one assault units worse vs other.

If I was making assault units worse versus each other you might have a point, but you're not actually complaining about those kind of assualt units (Orks, who are not a "quality" anything unit, they're a quantity one; Guard who win by tarpitting, or die be being swept; Tau who just die in hand to hand). Where's the complaint that I'm ruining Incubi, Wyches or Banshees (who are already in the "not worth taking" bin)?
Seriously now, Overrun is a step towards protection vs shooting (win combat when you charged? Consolidate into another unit, if you're not shot to death you're now engaged!), and I never said the new chart was to strengthen vs shooting, I said it was to put some teeth back into the VERY expensive assault oriented units who just get left on the shelf because they don't melee well anymore.

Plus a model representing a Daemon of pure melee combat AWESOME should not be slapping Tau on a 3+. In my he should never miss but I didn't take it that far. I even revised it so they have to be triple your WS before they get the re-roll (save vs WS1, you need to be at least WS5 in that case) and double your WS to even unlock the 2+. I think that's a lot kinder than what I originally wanted to do.

**koooaei**

It's simple. To wound a chapter master on a bike you now need 6 * 6 * 6 = 216 attacks from ws4 s3 or lower models. Up from 72 attacks. You think it's fine? 108 from ws4 s4 up from 36. I'm calling it immune to mellee.

Advice on rolling more 6-s is not very useful when you need to roll 3 in a row. It's like saying that 2++ rerollable is perfectly fine and ballanced