D weapons and.tournaments

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**PrinceRaven**

Many tournament organisers and gaming groups would disagree with you about D Weapons being in normal 40k.

**ausYenLoWang**

Let them... thats their own interpretation of GW's official rules, its been made clear and events like the recent adepticon called is a house rule, even ran an event that had them in it. and the gaming groups do it for their own internal reasoning. doesnt make it how its been written

**Hollismason**

Why do people always measure things against the measurement of how they perform in tournaments? Like seriously, I live in Chicago. There was Adepticon, there will be a few more through out hte year but it's not like every single weekend there is this big huge tournament where you can win MASSIVE PRIZES OMG.

Tournaments in my opinion are a carrot on a stick that is rotten on the inside. Sure if you want to spend the several thousand dollars a year lets say 10,000 dollars to travel to all the tournaments in the US. Maybe like 40. Go ahead. It's not like there's a real benefit of winning a tournament, oh great you got a 2500 point army. Great, I could save my money on air fare the miniatures cost to play in it hotel cost food cost. Let's say minimum 300 to 500 bucks less probably and buy that.

Should think of tournaments as really just a way to go play a bunch of 40k over the weekend and meet a bunch of great people. have some kickass pick up games and play some pick up games.

Who is the best 40k player in the world? Right now can you name who? No, okay then.

I just hate it when people measure somethings effectiveness in regards to a tournament setting as if that means anything at all. I can tell you the 20 guys that have a small club out in Nebraska don't give two gaks about tournaments.

Winning a Tournament is a false goal for 40k and if you play to win tournaments you are in the wroooong hobby;

Measuring your worth as a "competitive" 40k player is like measuring your worth as a player in Major League baseball when you play in a softball league on the weekends. What's that mean nothing it's a stupid fething analogy and doesn't make any sense. Just like there's no success in 40k just the simple act of having a great hobby that you enjoy. If you are obssessed about tournaments and measuring things according to how they play in tournaments, then well your doing it wrong. GW and 40k is not a true competitive enviroment at all, it's the guy who figures out he can hit the coke machine on the side to get a free coke and next year the office gets a new coke machine and he has to kick it this year instead. Again another stupid analogy.

**PrinceRaven**

Well if we're talking strictrly rules as written here the BRB doesn't give you permission to select Escalation units at all, so the only D weapon we need to worry about is the Imperial Knights' Chainsword.

**ausYenLoWang**

PrinceRaven wrote:
Well if we're talking strictrly rules as written here the BRB doesn't give you permission to select Escalation units at all, so the only D weapon we need to worry about is the Imperial Knights' Chainsword.

yessss that old chestnut, except that every other book printed by "Games Workshop" is added to that book, so its not just escalation, its the data slates and everything else... its a big bad world out there, but remember 6.1 is on the way and its going to be ADDED to the main rule book what will you cling to then, they already tell you its normal 40k... time to deal with it now rather than head in the sand for another couple of months... because when that book drops as its expected to, its going to turn lots of peoples worlds upside down, simply because they have sat in denial over this thing for so long. and remember advocates have no drama with it being a house rule, none at all, just dont pretend its not how GW has written the rules

**PrinceRaven**

I'm just saying I think it's better to talk about the game as it is played than how it is written. Do you tell people that you shouldn't take a Quad Gun on an ADL because your opponent can block it with terrain? Or that you should take the possibility of a Skyfire Nexus into account when buying wargear for their Troops? Do you say Wraithkinghts are a completely terrible unit because without eyes they can't draw line of sight?

**ausYenLoWang**

your the one trying to rules lawyer out anything not specifically listed in the BRB... not me... and a bunch of the listed things are the same kind of BS. and HAHA at the notion of no eyes and shooting, so do we then presume anything without ACTUAL eyes cant shoot, cos i know 99% or marines dont have eyes, you just presume they do... cos of the helmets, what about rubric marines, only dust in that uniform... so lets not even play that joke on each other... find better excuses.

EDIT: not trying ot be rude, just tired of old excuses that were thing 12 months ago, now have more holes in the than swiss cheese, again look at where the 6.1 rumours etc etc are facing, its all gonna be in there, escalation, stronghold assault, dataslates, formations etc etc, its time to realise it will be there and start looking at options.

i am hoping that they tone down D weps in all forms for NON apoc games, maybe even apoc because its a bit OTT, but sittig there fingers in ears go lalalala it wont happen, and hasnt happened, is just trying to avoid that its there...

**Gibblets**

I agree that D weapons do not belong in tournaments or really even regular games of 40K.

However, in light of the pile of garbage that allowing allies opened up with easy (relatively speaking) access to the aforementioned 2+(+) rerollables, D Weapons at least give me, a guard player, a big stinking pile of bleu cheese to jam down my opponents throat. The same way I have to deal with their cheese. In my FLGS I've got a personal rule, that if my opponent brings guaranteed rerollable 2+(+)'s then I'm going to bring out my Shadow Sword and tell him where to stick his WAAC attitude.

**-Loki-**

ausYenLoWang wrote:
EDIT: not trying ot be rude, just tired of old excuses that were thing 12 months ago, now have more holes in the than swiss cheese, again look at where the 6.1 rumours etc etc are facing, its all gonna be in there, escalation, stronghold assault, dataslates, formations etc etc, its time to realise it will be there and start looking at options.

Absolutely true. People should be looking at options to combat this sort of thing.

There's plenty out there - Warmachine, Warpath, Infinity, Malifaux, Dropzone Commander...

Seriously though, don't trust rumours these days. The days of reliable rumour sources are long, long gone.

**ausYenLoWang**

i play some warmachine do it when im bored and want a really fast game.... very little involved in it, and the knowledge that by being .5" out of place is game over.. not as fun...

now playing those other games dont suit most 40k players or they would already play it

as to rumors.. the still very reliable sources for 40k have dropped "7th ed" stories. those are including all of the above in it...
now where this will get really sticky is this. do you REALLY think, i mean be honest, after all the extra Super Heavies came out, a book to allow them GW WONT be milking it? come on, they will go into 6.5 or 7th or whatever you want to call it when it drops this year even if its just a compendium rulebook we will call 6.1 Death From the Skies is another example of this.

so we are stuck with these things, can you find ways to deal with them with your army, is your local group got lots of them in the group, are you going to houserule them out,
Thing is its here to stay, Adepticon test ran the format, the future will show from there where it leads in tourneys, will it be run as a seperate format, or will it be incorperated into base tournament matches

**PrinceRaven**

ausYenLoWang wrote:
your the one trying to rules lawyer out anything not specifically listed in the BRB... not me... and a bunch of the listed things are the same kind of BS. and HAHA at the notion of no eyes and shooting, so do we then presume anything without ACTUAL eyes cant shoot, cos i know 99% or marines dont have eyes, you just presume they do... cos of the helmets, what about rubric marines, only dust in that uniform... so lets not even play that joke on each other... find better excuses.

EDIT: not trying ot be rude, just tired of old excuses that were thing 12 months ago, now have more holes in the than swiss cheese, again look at where the 6.1 rumours etc etc are facing, its all gonna be in there, escalation, stronghold assault, dataslates, formations etc etc, its time to realise it will be there and start looking at options.

i am hoping that they tone down D weps in all forms for NON apoc games, maybe even apoc because its a bit OTT, but sittig there fingers in ears go lalalala it wont happen, and hasnt happened, is just trying to avoid that its there...

I have never said the bolded, if we played by the rules as written all Space Marines would have to be helmetless to shoot or charge enemy units.

I'm just sick of saying that maybe certain ridiculous things in the rules, like Escalation, Taudar, Screamerstar, etc. shouldn't be allowed without your opponent's consent and getting told "no you can't do that because they're part of "normal 40k" now" as if I'm blaspheming to suggest doing things in any way other than the scripture according our holy lords in Games Workshop.

It's just bizarre that the Internet is up in arms about the state of the game right now but actually daring to suggest doing something about is met with accusations of heresy.

**ausYenLoWang**

your under no obligation at anypoint to play someone. what it comes down to though is this, it in the rules, and refusing to play against its being a cad. what it works as though you go to play a game with mates you dont take such lists without prior agreement. if you walk into your local gaming store and say i want a game of 40k, THAT encompases EVERYTHING.... not just piecemeal. Dont want to play those lists, thats ok as well just say i want a game of 40k, no screamstar, no gravspam, no overly competitive lists, no escalation, no stronghold assault, no dataslates, no forgeworld, no blah blah blah the list goes on and on and on and on and on.

again the game has evolved and includes these things, so instead of head in sand, be aware of what you MAY face in a total random pick up game with strangers, and play the game as such, sure 1/30 games at the local FLGS you might cop such lists but its rarer than you think.

i spent 3 months in the USA, playing out of 2 gaming stores and games every week, want to know the only time i even SAW trip wraithknights, or 2 riptides, that was tourneys where the gloves were off, outside of that, at the gaming stores, people would say "hey look prepping for a tourney can i feild my super duper list for a practice match".
the rarity of these things turning up is crazy, but at the end of the day, an open request fora game of 40k WILL inclide the option for these, be prepared.

If i write a total fluffy list, then guess what i dont go expecting to flog my opponent or even win, i can lose and i most likely will, but i enjoy doing maximum damage along the way. if i want to write a tripple drake douche list i can do that too, easily. and have done so.

so whats the game got for the future, escalation for sure, strD yep, whether it maintains its current stats no one knows. but it WILL be there as far as GW is concerned, deciding to refuse to play against it or house rule it out, is up to you to decide, but remember asking for an open game can and will occasionally include those, take those games in your stride.

as to me saying you presume about marines with eyes, you cited the "models without eyes cant shoot rule" its a good expectation. if i am wrong in that my apologise but dont use that kind of thing to back your argument if your not going to stand by the reasons you provide.

**Hollismason**

I really think they're going to split the rules and say " These are allowed at these point levels". I really see them introducing Lords of War into normal games but suggesting it be at a certain point level as well as all the other rules as well.

**ausYenLoWang**

Hollisman, i can see your point... but it wont happen, for one reason, escalation was brought in as a level below apoc, they judged apoc to be what 3k ish point... so this is for the 1850-3k bracket. but to simplify the rules, they will just make it a 0-1 slot for LOW at any points level. the advantage is though that even if you play at 2500 you still only need to deal with 1, unless you make it apoc and you can run 3 warhounds in there...

and suggesting hahaha is a very good way of putting it, its a very gw forge the narrative situation except it will then be a you can take them so people will.

i believe it will come down to how they deal with the StrD rules and if they soften them up a little to make THAT more acceptable, then no ones really going to mind the superheavies, again this isnt so much against something like a baneblade, this is more a concern with reavers, and revanents that are crazy for their points in output at this stage

**nosferatu1001**

PR - the whole game is opponents consent. Even in a tournament you cannot be forced to play against someone if you dont like them or their army.

If you dont like ranged / close combat Strength D, dont play someone with it.

Talking to your opponent seems to be something beyond a lot of gamers..

**Peregrine**

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Even in a tournament you cannot be forced to play against someone if you dont like them or their army.

So you're going to just forfeit the game because you don't like their army? They might not be holding a gun to your head to force you to play, but your "consent" in a tournament is pretty much irrelevant.

**koooaei**

S: D is not worse than serpentspam, triptides, screamerstar, flying circle or any other cheezy spam. Tournaments are usually meant to be filled with such things unless it's stated as a casual tournament that bans such overly effective combinations. So, i see no real reason to disallow it on tournaments.

S: D breaks the game in the exact same manner. I'd not play vs this lists for fun but it's a pretty fine situation for tournaments.

**nosferatu1001**

Peregrine wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Even in a tournament you cannot be forced to play against someone if you dont like them or their army.

So you're going to just forfeit the game because you don't like their army? They might not be holding a gun to your head to force you to play, but your "consent" in a tournament is pretty much irrelevant.

Yes. If I dont like them, or their army, and dont feel I would enjoy myself - the reason I play a *game* is to enjoy myself, usually - then I would refuse a game. And have done so (this w3as player not army issue though, they really are a colossal dick, and known for it, and it was not worth my time to play them)

However fundamentally in a tournament you are going in eyes wide open as regards what armies you MAY face. If they explicitly allow escalation / do not explicitly deny it, then you know you can face a revenant, or Macro cannon. So dont complain if this actually happens.

You still have to consent to actually play the game. Yes, if you dont you "lose" the game, as far as the tournament is concerned, but I would much rather (and, importantly, have proven this) not play a gakky game than play it.

My time is limited. By choosing, eyes open, to play in a tournament with Strength D allowed, I would be a hypocrite to complain about its inclusion. I had a choice and accepted its presence implicitly by going along to it.

**PrinceRaven**

nosferatu1001 wrote:
PR - the whole game is opponents consent. Even in a tournament you cannot be forced to play against someone if you dont like them or their army.

Exactly, which is why I find it odd that people bite my head for saying I don't play with Escalation because I'm not playing "normal 40k".

**nosferatu1001**

PrinceRaven wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
PR - the whole game is opponents consent. Even in a tournament you cannot be forced to play against someone if you dont like them or their army.

Exactly, which is why I find it odd that people bite my head for saying I don't play with Escalation because I'm not playing "normal 40k".

well by definitiopn you arent playing "normal" 40k, youre playing the variant of the game you wish to. It is a true statement however - GW have put Strength D into the base rules for 40k

Youre free not to play against it, it just means 40k is even less of a pick up game now than it has ever been - which is fine, I prefer actually talking to my opponent than them just being just someone else. My best games - usually ones I have lost - are where my opponent and I have chatted about the armies we're playing, etc.

**PrinceRaven**

What is normal 40? The rules set down by the lords on high or the way the game is most commonly played?

**Jidmah**

blaktoof wrote:
I hear what you are saying...
on the other hand when there isn't escalation I just see the top games being decided by who rolled bad and lost their 2++ save star unit and who didn't...

The top games in non-escalation tournament are decided between three codices, with sometime your odd space marine jumping in. During those games, your list, your codex, terrain and strategy makes a difference. Top games in escalation is decided between between three models in game turn one, everything else is just decoration, including your codex. Whether you bring Space Wolves, Orks, Tau or Ultramarines makes literally no difference, as long as you brought a titan and void shields.

It's literally escalation of the already terrible game design into no balance or strategy whatsoever.

**nosferatu1001**

PrinceRaven wrote:
What is normal 40? The rules set down by the lords on high or the way the game is most commonly played?

GW, given they make the game and have included Escalation as part of the ruleset.

**OzTeG8ndPwRfl**

I fought some D strength weapons in local games at my store. I saw nothing wrong with them. One was an IG super heavy, not sure which one. It blew up easy enough though, melta makes short work of them. IK when fielded one at a time don't seem to scary. They got ripped apart by my local meta. Eldar, Inquisition, Space Marines, Orks, Tau, even IG had little difficulty surviving the D weapon and killing the thing that shot it. Personally I think super heavies are to many points for their damage output. At least I am not impressed, their hull points drop quickly and things like flying monstrous creatures and deep striking melta seem to have no trouble taking them down.

**Farseer Faenyin**

I'm with Nos on this one. GW makes the game, if you feel you know better than they do and feel the need to tell your opponent outright that they can't play what they bought because you don't like it...that is certainly not 'normal 40k'.

When 6th Ed came out, I didn't like how flyers were introduced as my army had only the ADL to deal with them which was easily nullified. Did I play against flyers? Yes. Why? Because it is part of the game, and denying somebody from playing their $75 model because I don't like it is a jerk move.

**PrinceRaven**

Personally, I consider showing up to a pickup game with a Revenant Titan to be more of a jerk move.

I guess the key, really, is to not be a jerk about things. I always ask my opponents what level of competition they're looking for before a game and whether or not they're ok with me using a formation.

**Kilkrazy**

Well, this discussion is about tournaments, not pick-up games at shops and so on.

An organised TO will make a clear statement on what rules, codexes or units will be allowed.

If the TO decides not to allow Str.D weapons, that isn't players being "jerks", that's the rules of the game that you agree to play by when you send in an entry.

**PrinceRaven**

On D Weapons in tournaments: Banning at least ranged D weapons is a step in the right direction towards creating a fun and competitive tournament scene.

**OzTeG8ndPwRfl**

Out of curiosity, what is the cheapest strength D large blast template?

**Plumbumbarum**

PrinceRaven wrote:
Personally, I consider showing up to a pickup game with a Revenant Titan to be more of a jerk move.

It's at best the same level of jerk move that you make refusing him a game. In my opinion yours is worse because GW released him a supplement that states it's a part of base rules, then offered him a model and then he meets you with some stick in the ass pretentious I don't play this don't play that attitude and you punish the guy for a crap unbalaned rules that can make the game unenjoyable.

Also your no consent argument is irrelevant to the discussion and is not a solution for a game. You have time and low standards to fix $100+ rules then fine but don't present it as something workable or universal.