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So what you're saying is I could have +8 to my invulnerable save, but because one of them is from the Mark of Tzeentch it caps at 3+?

On the FNP argument, the feel no pain is for a flesh wound(not the "flesh wound" from Monty Python) or like a cut etc. like a sword might leave a deep cut but adrenaline may keep him going hence feel-no-pain but when the weapon has the power to "blow his legs off" i.e str doubles toughness it ignores it. Don't remove it it represents the rage and disregard of the blood angels, the nerves etc rotting away in plague marines giving the "feel no" part a literal meaning or fuegan where if you read his fluff he is focused on his objective and hasn't hot time for it

But I do agree 2++ re-roll is overpowered but don't remove fortune, it's a iconic power maybe change it to giving an invulnerable save hence the seeing in to the future dodging dangers etc. as read from the power.

The cover modifiers I believe while may of been a more affective thing(a bit of stone wont stop a boltgun or a las cannon blast) I think it was added in for simplicity. Just like the whole armour save being reduced by certain weapons etc.(and don't forget the feared choppa)

 PrinceRaven wrote:
So what you're saying is I could have +8 to my invulnerable save, but because one of them is from the Mark of Tzeentch it caps at 3+?

Yes, because MoT caps the save at 3+. Luckily +8 isnt possible, but if it were you would have to take that into account and, maybe, not take MoT....

 PrinceRaven wrote:
So what you're saying is I could have +8 to my invulnerable save, but because one of them is from the Mark of Tzeentch it caps at 3+?

Pretty extreme example, and if you could do that wouldn't need MoT, but generally the impression the rule gives. It gives a bonus, but it comes with a restriction. I know that it's just how I read it and not YMDC standards but being pure RAW tends to break the game. A lot. So I tend to not go down that road so much.

To the OP, no... but rerolled invulns is too prevalent (really shouldn't exist at all). I like the BAO/LVO ruling that any 2+ save rerolls at 4+. Still better than 3+ reroll, but doesn't break the game.

As much as I don't want to buy another rulebook, we really need either a 6.5 rulebook. Unfortunately the GW rule crew are such amateur hacks that there'll be new stupidness next time around.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Or 5+1(capped at 3)+2, you get choose the order for modifiers if they're both addition.

No, no you do not. There is no order of operations there, and there is no allowance to cap half way through. Or are you saying that S6x2 - 1 is S9 now?
(Resolving multiple modifiers is not a set of actions that happen at the same time that the controlling player can then choose to resolve first, so that rule does not apply. You have no permission to apply a cap half way through a calculation, so you cannot do so)

In short, you CANNOT get to a 2+ with the current cahos codex by using MoT. RAW

That's your reading of the RaW, and to be honest it doesn't satisfy the argument to exclusion of his. And your attitude is as it always is, I see.
A calculation has to have an order of operations. You can't logically add everything at once. Even 1+1+1 has to be done in two steps. There is nothing that states what that order is though, and you've decided on an order of operations that supports your argument, but your whole argument falls if you are saying there is no order of operations. If there isn't then it cannot be added at all.

I'm not saying his argument is perfect either. What I'm saying is that there is nothing but opinions that actually decides on the order of operations, and then you state that as irrefutable evidence.
The raw is unclear, and your attitude of "you're idiots that can't see how perfectly crystal this is" just leaves a sour taste.

I guess it comes down to whether you consider the limitation to be a set modifier or simply a restriction on +1 from MoT. Clearly that is the difference in how we read the rule.

 jasper76 wrote:

 Kain wrote:
getting rid of FNP is idiotic and breaks a massive number of units and sometimes entire armies. It's also been a rule for a very, very long time.

Idiotic is a strong word to use. A 1 wound model, who dies due to any unsaved 40k wound received, can just not feel it, and continue to rumble with half a body left?

I can understand it would be bad news for anyone used to rolling FNP on everything.

i think you are just looking at it wrong.
You don't roll FnP to see IF the model feels the pain and dies of shock, because its already been established that the model cannot (hence having FnP in the first place) but rather seeing if the wound is severe enough to shrugged off.

For example, if you pass the FnP roll it's as simple as your guts are trailing on the ground behind you. Without the pain and shock you can continue fighting so you don't die

But f your lower body IS blown off...well that would be represented by failing the FnP roll, hence, your model no longer being able to fight.

You know, I've always though FnP should be a Toughness test. It just makes more sense based on the idea behind the rule.

Then again that'd make MCs with FnP REALLY hard to shift, so perhaps that's not a great idea.

The equivalent of 2+ Feel No Pain? Now that would be broke as hell. That's like getting a rerollab- oh wait...

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The equivalent of 2+ Feel No Pain? Now that would be broke as hell. That's like getting a rerollab- oh wait...

You have to admit Feel No Pain -would- make more sense and be more "cinematic" that way. And would likely cost 50 points to put on a Carnifex....

 13whited wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:

 Kain wrote:
getting rid of FNP is idiotic and breaks a massive number of units and sometimes entire armies. It's also been a rule for a very, very long time.

Idiotic is a strong word to use. A 1 wound model, who dies due to any unsaved 40k wound received, can just not feel it, and continue to rumble with half a body left?

I can understand it would be bad news for anyone used to rolling FNP on everything.

i think you are just looking at it wrong.
You don't roll FnP to see IF the model feels the pain and dies of shock, because its already been established that the model cannot (hence having FnP in the first place) but rather seeing if the wound is severe enough to shrugged off.

For example, if you pass the FnP roll it's as simple as your guts are trailing on the ground behind you. Without the pain and shock you can continue fighting so you don't die

But f your lower body IS blown off...well that would be represented by failing the FnP roll, hence, your model no longer being able to fight.

When you read the description for the Sisters of Battle 6+ army wide Invuln, it is described as their faith being so strong that they "can shrug off the most severe of wounds"... and you think "wait... there's a specific other different rule for that."
Don't get me wrong, I'm very happy that we get it as an invuln, but maybe they shouldn't describe it in the exact same way as the FNP.

 Purifier wrote:

 13whited wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:

 Kain wrote:
getting rid of FNP is idiotic and breaks a massive number of units and sometimes entire armies. It's also been a rule for a very, very long time.

Idiotic is a strong word to use. A 1 wound model, who dies due to any unsaved 40k wound received, can just not feel it, and continue to rumble with half a body left?

I can understand it would be bad news for anyone used to rolling FNP on everything.

i think you are just looking at it wrong.
You don't roll FnP to see IF the model feels the pain and dies of shock, because its already been established that the model cannot (hence having FnP in the first place) but rather seeing if the wound is severe enough to shrugged off.

For example, if you pass the FnP roll it's as simple as your guts are trailing on the ground behind you. Without the pain and shock you can continue fighting so you don't die

But f your lower body IS blown off...well that would be represented by failing the FnP roll, hence, your model no longer being able to fight.

When you read the description for the Sisters of Battle 6+ army wide Invuln, it is described as their faith being so strong that they "can shrug off the most severe of wounds"... and you think "wait... there's a specific other different rule for that."
Don't get me wrong, I'm very happy that we get it as an invuln, but maybe they shouldn't describe it in the exact same way as the FNP.

Maybe it's less "shrug off all wounds" and "somehow survived mostly unscathed".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The equivalent of 2+ Feel No Pain? Now that would be broke as hell. That's like getting a rerollab- oh wait...

You have to admit Feel No Pain -would- make more sense and be more "cinematic" that way. And would likely cost 50 points to put on a Carnifex....

Quoting myself here: I'm definitely not overlooking that Instant Death would still be around to shut it down (making a Librarian with a Force Maul a Carnifex's worst nightmare ).

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The equivalent of 2+ Feel No Pain? Now that would be broke as hell. That's like getting a rerollab- oh wait...

You have to admit Feel No Pain -would- make more sense and be more "cinematic" that way. And would likely cost 50 points to put on a Carnifex....

I'd take 50 points over a 1 in 6 chance on getting it on a psyker then having to do a psychic test every turn to maintain it for 2+ FNP.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The equivalent of 2+ Feel No Pain? Now that would be broke as hell. That's like getting a rerollab- oh wait...

You have to admit Feel No Pain -would- make more sense and be more "cinematic" that way. And would likely cost 50 points to put on a Carnifex....

I'd take 50 points over a 1 in 6 chance on getting it on a psyker then having to do a psychic test every turn to maintain it for 2+ FNP.

Agreed. It'd be points heavy on big things, but there would be ways around it at least and it'd make more sense. And on the flip side on smaller models they're FnP would be worse (only a 50% chance of passing for T3 models for instance).

 ClockworkZion wrote:

pax_imperialis wrote:
Hey so probably a bad time to ask but.......how do i get a 2++ for my chaos space marines? I want in.

CSM max out at 3++ (MoT rules).

Not quite. Take the crimson slaughter rules, use the balestar of mannon, roll the 4++ divination power and ally in daemons with the grimoire.

Boom! 2++ on a daemon unit of your choice (obliterators perhaps?)

 rohansoldier wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

pax_imperialis wrote:
Hey so probably a bad time to ask but.......how do i get a 2++ for my chaos space marines? I want in.

CSM max out at 3++ (MoT rules).

Not quite. Take the crimson slaughter rules, use the balestar of mannon, roll the 4++ divination power and ally in daemons with the grimoire.

Boom! 2++ on a daemon unit of your choice (obliterators perhaps?)

So basically "get lucky, and Grimoire (which also requires luck)"?

89% chance with Fateweaver's reroll for Grimoire to work, that's rmore reliable than a 2+.

I don't know about the chances of getting Forewarning though.

Lol lets see how well your 2+ re-rollable invulnerable saves work against my D templates. D templates are the answer to the deathstars of 6th ed, which is why I am so surprised people are against them. Then again its probably the tournament goers that use the deathstars that are against them.

 Xerics wrote:
Lol lets see how well your 2+ re-rollable invulnerable saves work against my D templates. D templates are the answer to the deathstars of 6th ed, which is why I am so surprised people are against them. Then again its probably the tournament goers that use the deathstars that are against them.

Probably because D-Templates are the answer to EVERYTHING, not just that 2+ re-rollable deathstar.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The equivalent of 2+ Feel No Pain? Now that would be broke as hell. That's like getting a rerollab- oh wait...

You have to admit Feel No Pain -would- make more sense and be more "cinematic" that way. And would likely cost 50 points to put on a Carnifex....

Please don't make me remember the dark times of last ed's carnifexes.

If anything rerollable 2+ saves should work like WS/BS above 6 or above, you get a reroll but you gotta reroll higher.

 Kain wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The equivalent of 2+ Feel No Pain? Now that would be broke as hell. That's like getting a rerollab- oh wait...

You have to admit Feel No Pain -would- make more sense and be more "cinematic" that way. And would likely cost 50 points to put on a Carnifex....

Please don't make me remember the dark times of last ed's carnifexes.

50 points for FnP that only fails on a 6 (Passes on a 1-5)? How does that remind you of "the dark times"?

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The equivalent of 2+ Feel No Pain? Now that would be broke as hell. That's like getting a rerollab- oh wait...

You have to admit Feel No Pain -would- make more sense and be more "cinematic" that way. And would likely cost 50 points to put on a Carnifex....

Please don't make me remember the dark times of last ed's carnifexes.

50 points for FnP that only fails on a 6 (Passes on a 1-5)? How does that remind you of "the dark times"?

Carnifexes costing over a certain threshold causes me to enter a fugue state of despair.

Cruddace man, he hurts your soul.

I'll take your word for it.

2++ isn't that bad. Multiple 2++ on a single model? Frustrating as hell

far more of a "problem" with shooting being too strong, too cheap, especially to get ap 1 2 3.

power armour and TDA are basically useless... so ofc people are using the best ++ saves...

I really wish we had the + - modifiers back for ap instead of the stupid "absolute" levels.. so much easier to balance, marines or terminators making 4+ or 5+ armour saves would be much more fun then the "oh you never get to make saves" world we are basically in right now

 easysauce wrote:
far more of a "problem" with shooting being too strong, too cheap, especially to get ap 1 2 3.

power armour and TDA are basically useless... so ofc people are using the best ++ saves...

I really wish we had the + - modifiers back for ap instead of the stupid "absolute" levels.. so much easier to balance, marines or terminators making 4+ or 5+ armour saves would be much more fun then the "oh you never get to make saves" world we are basically in right now

Dear Space Marines,

Use cover.

That is all.

A lot of the prime contenders to the 'PA is too weak' argument are things like drakes, who ignore cover.

But thanks for the input!

Yeah, that's the thing, Ignores Cover on AP2 or AP3 is pretty damn brutal and needs a serious points investment because you're invalidating a LOT of units out there with it, but it seems to be really cheap when it crops up.