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The wording for target locks make it so that the guy with a TL shoots at a different target from the rest of his squad.

So, it stands to reason that you can still charge the unit that the rest of the unit shot at during the shooting phase, unless I'm missing something.

So how do you resolve the following shenanigans? (Other than with snarky remarks about how Tau should not be assaulting things.... Even though they shouldn't)

A unit where everyone has target locks: Can you shoot everyone at different targets and then charge yet another target?

A unit that has models with 0BS, and everyone else has target locks: Can you fire at different targets, then declare the 0BS guys targeted a differetn squad and charge them?

Sorry if this has already come up and been resolved.

You declare your target for the unit,lets say target A. You then say this model and that model is going to use their target locks and shoot at Target B and C.

Your only valid option to charge is Target A. this is because a unit can only charge a target they shot at (among other restrictions, this is the only one that matters here), The unit didnt shoot at Targer B or C because target lock is done on a model by model basis not unit level.

A unit with zero BS cannot make a shooting attack as per the FAQ so no they doesnt work either.

Hunam0001 wrote:
(Other than with snarky remarks about how Tau should not be assaulting things.... Even though they shouldn't)

It's sometimes advantageous to charge with a unit of suits - our Tau player has been known to do it with not too embarrasing results. The suits are tough enough that few non-dedicated CC units can handle them, especially if they're already decimated.

Especially if you have VRT, you are basically hiding your suits in enemy guardsmen so they can't be shot at. Then hit and run in the enemy assault phase.

How about a solo Crisis suit with a target lock?

Could you declare the target of his unit to be one squad, then shoot a different squad using his TL, then charge the first squad?

Yes, absolutely.

I disagree, unless the suit has drones. If it is just a lone suit, he can never shoot at a different target then his unit.

 Happyjew wrote:
I disagree, unless the suit has drones. If it is just a lone suit, he can never shoot at a different target then his unit.

Target Lock allows him to.
Away from my books at the moment, so it depends on the timing/wording of Target Lock really.

The wording is :
"A model with a target lock can shoot at a different target to the rest of his unit. "

meaning his unit has to fire at their target and he can simultaneously fire at a separate target; One cannot fire at a separate target from himself.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
meaning his unit has to fire at their target and he can simultaneously fire at a separate target; One cannot fire at a separate target from himself.

Devils advocate:

A model and a unit are different things. Could the unit nominate a target unit and then the individual model with TL opt to shoot at another target unit and satisfy all rules?
The rest of his unit (all zero models) do fire at the original target.

Wow, I can see this both ways. I'd allow it against me, but would be hesitant to pull this out myself.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
meaning his unit has to fire at their target and he can simultaneously fire at a separate target; One cannot fire at a separate target from himself.

Devils advocate:

A model and a unit are different things. Could the unit nominate a target unit and then the individual model with TL opt to shoot at another target unit and satisfy all rules?
The rest of his unit (all zero models) do fire at the original target.

If no models fired at the target unit then it could not be charged

So Genestealers can never charge?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
meaning his unit has to fire at their target and he can simultaneously fire at a separate target; One cannot fire at a separate target from himself.

Devils advocate:

A model and a unit are different things. Could the unit nominate a target unit and then the individual model with TL opt to shoot at another target unit and satisfy all rules?
The rest of his unit (all zero models) do fire at the original target.

If there are no other models in his unit firing at the other target there is no other target.

As for your genestealer statement, not shooting at all has no effect on ability to charge, the restriction is on Charging at a unit other than the unit you shot at.

Target Lock(and the more restrictive split fire) require 2 separate units to be fired at for their rules to take effect, if the unit does not fire at any units, then the rules do not take effect and whatever unit is targeted by the 1 firing model is the targeted unit by default.

Basically what I am saying is you actually have to shoot at a unit for it to be a unit you have shot at.

What, exactly, does it mean to shoot at a separate unit? I would say that it means that the model using a target lock functions as a sub-unit in his own right as we resolve the shooting rules.

What do I mean by that? Well, for one thing, it means he uses his own range and line-of-sight, and does not benefit from the rest of his unit's range and line-of-sight (e.g. for allocating wounds), like models in a unit normally would. Nor could a target model claim a cover save off of a different firing model (i.e., another suit firing at a different unit).

Reasonable assumptions, yes?

What does all this mean for the original question? It means that none of it is possible; you will fail to be able to target the unit nobody is firing at, because nobody is using their own range and line-of-sight for the unit rather than for themselves. The unit itself - having no models left in it - has no range and line-of-sight to the target it's not really firing at.

P.S.: You cannot exploit timing to get around this; unlike Split Fire, there is nothing in the target lock that makes the targeting occur separately in time from the normal target selection.

rigeld2 wrote:
So Genestealers can never charge?

Did the Genestealers fire ?

In addition to the above, a unit that fired in the shooting phase can only charge the unit that it targeted during that turn's Shooting phase.

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
So Genestealers can never charge?

Did the Genestealers fire ?

In addition to the above, a unit that fired in the shooting phase can only charge the unit that it targeted during that turn's Shooting phase.

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
meaning his unit has to fire at their target and he can simultaneously fire at a separate target; One cannot fire at a separate target from himself.

Devils advocate:

A model and a unit are different things. Could the unit nominate a target unit and then the individual model with TL opt to shoot at another target unit and satisfy all rules?
The rest of his unit (all zero models) do fire at the original target.

If no models fired at the target unit then it could not be charged

It's almost like I was responding to the words you wrote that you so politely removed. Context matters, yo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
meaning his unit has to fire at their target and he can simultaneously fire at a separate target; One cannot fire at a separate target from himself.

Devils advocate:

A model and a unit are different things. Could the unit nominate a target unit and then the individual model with TL opt to shoot at another target unit and satisfy all rules?
The rest of his unit (all zero models) do fire at the original target.

If there are no other models in his unit firing at the other target there is no other target.

As for your genestealer statement, not shooting at all has no effect on ability to charge, the restriction is on Charging at a unit other than the unit you shot at.

Target Lock(and the more restrictive split fire) require 2 separate units to be fired at for their rules to take effect, if the unit does not fire at any units, then the rules do not take effect and whatever unit is targeted by the 1 firing model is the targeted unit by default.

Basically what I am saying is you actually have to shoot at a unit for it to be a unit you have shot at.

That's not what the rule actually says though.

In addition to the above, a unit that fired in the shooting phase can only charge the unit that it targeted during that turn's Shooting phase.

Did the unit fire? Yes. Did the unit target the unit it's trying to assault? Yes. No one fired at that unit, but it was the unit's target.

rigeld2 wrote:

It's almost like I was responding to the words you wrote that you so politely removed. Context matters, yo..

Indeed. Considering we were talking about a unit that was shooting, you try to throw out a non shooting example, which has no restrictions. Almost like you were avoiding the argument at hand, yo

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

It's almost like I was responding to the words you wrote that you so politely removed. Context matters, yo..

Indeed. Considering we were talking about a unit that was shooting, you try to throw out a non shooting example, which has no restrictions. Almost like you were avoiding the argument at hand, yo

Your statement was an absolute. And an incorrect example of the rules. I was trying to show that.
So how about you address the rules argument I've made? Thanks.

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

It's almost like I was responding to the words you wrote that you so politely removed. Context matters, yo..

Indeed. Considering we were talking about a unit that was shooting, you try to throw out a non shooting example, which has no restrictions. Almost like you were avoiding the argument at hand, yo

Your statement was an absolute. And an incorrect example of the rules. I was trying to show that.
So how about you address the rules argument I've made? Thanks.

You still have not shown a shooting attack that targetted the unit.

I don't need to because the rule doesn't require that.
I nominate the unit. The unit targets that Riptide over there. The Crisis suit uses his Target Lock to snipe that last Kroot off of an objective. Crisis suit declares an assault on the Riptide.

Cite the rule I broke.

rigeld2 wrote:
I don't need to because the rule doesn't require that.
I nominate the unit. The unit targets that Riptide over there. The Crisis suit uses his Target Lock to snipe that last Kroot off of an objective. Crisis suit declares an assault on the Riptide.

Cite the rule I broke.

Is the Riptide in range and Line of Sight of the models shooting at it?

Yes, the Riptide is in range and LoS of the Suit before he uses his target lock.

rigeld2 wrote:
Yes, the Riptide is in range and LoS of the Suit before he uses his target lock.

Isn't all shooting (within a unit) declared at the same time? Meaning you cannot shoot with the unit see how many hits you have and then decide whether or not the Target Lock model is hooting at the same target or something else.

rigeld2 wrote:
I don't need to because the rule doesn't require that.
I nominate the unit. The unit targets that Riptide over there. The Crisis suit uses his Target Lock to snipe that last Kroot off of an objective. Crisis suit declares an assault on the Riptide.

Cite the rule I broke.

In order to charge the unit you have to have targeted it with a shooting attack.

In your scenario, your single model cannot target the unit with a shooting attack. If zero models shoot at the units target, then it was not targeted.

 Happyjew wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Yes, the Riptide is in range and LoS of the Suit before he uses his target lock.

Isn't all shooting (within a unit) declared at the same time? Meaning you cannot shoot with the unit see how many hits you have and then decide whether or not the Target Lock model is hooting at the same target or something else.

I never said that's what happened.
Page 12: Step 1 is satisfied. Step 2, Riptide is declared and measured, Kroot is declared and measured.

Cite the rule that requires resolution of a shooting attack for the unit to have been targeted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I don't need to because the rule doesn't require that.
I nominate the unit. The unit targets that Riptide over there. The Crisis suit uses his Target Lock to snipe that last Kroot off of an objective. Crisis suit declares an assault on the Riptide.

Cite the rule I broke.

In order to charge the unit you have to have targeted it with a shooting attack.

In your scenario, your single model cannot target the unit with a shooting attack. If zero models shoot at the units target, then it was not targeted.

The actual rules disagree. I've met page 12 Step 2's requirements as far as I can tell. Mind citing a rule that requires resolving a shooting attack? Or any rules support for your statements? That'd be nice.

I'd say it doesn't work.

I accept that you targeted the Riptide. However, I do not think that you can use he TL to shoot a target other than the "rest" of the unit when there is no "rest" of the unit.

Wouldnt the now disappeared FAQ that references zero BS cannot make a shooting attack apply to targetting something that cannot shoot?.

MarkyMark wrote:
Wouldnt the now disappeared FAQ that references zero BS cannot make a shooting attack apply to targetting something that cannot shoot?.

No relevance at all.