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 Lobukia wrote:
Wow, I can see this both ways. I'd allow it against me, but would be hesitant to pull this out myself.

I'm just gonna go with this answer.

the rule requires a shooting attack to be targeted at the unit. What shooting attack was targeted at the unit?

Fragile wrote:
the rule requires a shooting attack to be targeted at the unit. What shooting attack was targeted at the unit?

The rule does not require a shooting attack to be targeted at the unit. The rule requires that the unit was targeted in the shooting phase.
I've demonstrated that I meet that requirement - meeting the requirements in phase 2 of a shooting attack.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
The wording is :
"A model with a target lock can shoot at a different target to the rest of his unit. "

rigeld2 wrote:
I don't need to because the rule doesn't require that.
I nominate the unit. The unit targets that Riptide over there. The Crisis suit uses his Target Lock to snipe that last Kroot off of an objective. Crisis suit declares an assault on the Riptide.

Cite the rule I broke.

Baktru wrote:
I'd say it doesn't work.

I accept that you targeted the Riptide. However, I do not think that you can use he TL to shoot a target other than the "rest" of the unit when there is no "rest" of the unit.

The rules for target lock apparently DO require a shooting attack because he is shooting a different target to the rest of his unit, i.e., shooting at a target different from the rest of the unit requires not only there be more to the unit, but it also requires that they shoot.

Banbaji wrote:
The rules for target lock apparently DO require a shooting attack because he is shooting a different target to the rest of his unit, i.e., shooting at a target different from the rest of the unit requires not only there be more to the unit, but it also requires that they shoot.

No, it just requires that he shoots at a target different from the rest of his unit.
That doesn't change a thing. The unit targets the Riptide. The suit TLs a Kroot. He has shot a target different from the rest of his unit (because the unit targeted the Riptide).

Targeting a unit is the second step in the shooting sequence. Is there a rule that allows you to voluntarily stop the shooting sequence for a unit once it has begun?

 Ghaz wrote:
Targeting a unit is the second step in the shooting sequence. Is there a rule that allows you to voluntarily stop the shooting sequence for a unit once it has begun?

No. Go to step 3.

To determine if the firing model has hit its target, roll a D6 for each shot that is in range

Since we have zero shots in range now (because the suit has TLed off to a different unit) the shooting attack fails - but the Riptide was absolutely targeted.

rigeld2 wrote:

Banbaji wrote:
The rules for target lock apparently DO require a shooting attack because he is shooting a different target to the rest of his unit, i.e., shooting at a target different from the rest of the unit requires not only there be more to the unit, but it also requires that they shoot.

No, it just requires that he shoots at a target different from the rest of his unit.
That doesn't change a thing. The unit targets the Riptide. The suit TLs a Kroot. He has shot a target different from the rest of his unit (because the unit targeted the Riptide).

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
The wording is :
"A model with a target lock can shoot at a different target to the rest of his unit. "

It doesn't say that his unit targets, it says rest of his unit. That phrasing excludes him from consideration. What part of his unit that was not the model using TL targeted the riptide?

Banbaji wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Banbaji wrote:
The rules for target lock apparently DO require a shooting attack because he is shooting a different target to the rest of his unit, i.e., shooting at a target different from the rest of the unit requires not only there be more to the unit, but it also requires that they shoot.

No, it just requires that he shoots at a target different from the rest of his unit.
That doesn't change a thing. The unit targets the Riptide. The suit TLs a Kroot. He has shot a target different from the rest of his unit (because the unit targeted the Riptide).

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
The wording is :
"A model with a target lock can shoot at a different target to the rest of his unit. "

It doesn't say that his unit targets, it says rest of his unit. That phrasing excludes him from consideration. What part of his unit that was not the model using TL targeted the riptide?

The unit as a whole did. You're attempting to conflate a single model with the entirety of the unit. The rules don't do so.

rigeld2 wrote:

Banbaji wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Banbaji wrote:
The rules for target lock apparently DO require a shooting attack because he is shooting a different target to the rest of his unit, i.e., shooting at a target different from the rest of the unit requires not only there be more to the unit, but it also requires that they shoot.

No, it just requires that he shoots at a target different from the rest of his unit.
That doesn't change a thing. The unit targets the Riptide. The suit TLs a Kroot. He has shot a target different from the rest of his unit (because the unit targeted the Riptide).

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
The wording is :
"A model with a target lock can shoot at a different target to the rest of his unit. "

It doesn't say that his unit targets, it says rest of his unit. That phrasing excludes him from consideration. What part of his unit that was not the model using TL targeted the riptide?

The unit as a whole did. You're attempting to conflate a single model with the entirety of the unit. The rules don't do so.

The rules for target lock DO specify REST of unit, which would excludes the single MODEL. Yes, the unit targets the riptide. However, the unit is ENTIRELY the single crisis suit. There is no "rest of the unit", which means he does not have permission to shoot a different target.

Banbaji wrote:
The rules for target lock DO specify REST of unit, which would excludes the single MODEL. Yes, the unit targets the riptide. However, the unit is ENTIRELY the single crisis suit. There is no "rest of the unit", which means he does not have permission to shoot a different target.

The rest of the unit, all zero models of it, targets the Riptide.
You're equating targeting with resolving a shooting attack. That's not what the rules require.

rigeld2 wrote:

Banbaji wrote:
The rules for target lock DO specify REST of unit, which would excludes the single MODEL. Yes, the unit targets the riptide. However, the unit is ENTIRELY the single crisis suit. There is no "rest of the unit", which means he does not have permission to shoot a different target.

The rest of the unit, all zero models of it, targets the Riptide.
You're equating targeting with resolving a shooting attack. That's not what the rules require.

How can zero models target anything? Also, I'll give you the shooting part. However, for the rest of the unit to target something, there needs to be more than one model. Otherwise, there is no rest of the unit.

I explained that earlier in the thread.

Zero models cannot target anything, it is where the whole logic fails. There is no "rest of the unit" to fulfill the rule. There are no legal models to target a primary unit.

rigeld2 wrote:

Banbaji wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Banbaji wrote:
The rules for target lock apparently DO require a shooting attack because he is shooting a different target to the rest of his unit, i.e., shooting at a target different from the rest of the unit requires not only there be more to the unit, but it also requires that they shoot.

No, it just requires that he shoots at a target different from the rest of his unit.
That doesn't change a thing. The unit targets the Riptide. The suit TLs a Kroot. He has shot a target different from the rest of his unit (because the unit targeted the Riptide).

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
The wording is :
"A model with a target lock can shoot at a different target to the rest of his unit. "

It doesn't say that his unit targets, it says rest of his unit. That phrasing excludes him from consideration. What part of his unit that was not the model using TL targeted the riptide?

The unit as a whole did. You're attempting to conflate a single model with the entirety of the unit. The rules don't do so.

In this case the single model is the entirety of the unit, it is a unit of 1 single model we are discussing.

If it were a crisis suit with 2 shield drones, absolutely fine, the shield drones target the riptide and the Crisis shoots at a different target.

But a single model unit crisis suit cannot target 2 units. He cannot shoot at a different target from himself(or from the rest of the nothing that cannot target anything).

I've shown how it works. Please find a rules argument disproving it.

You have not shown how it works. You have made an assertion that 1 model can target 2 units. Zero models cannot target a unit; for split fire and TL the model shoots at a different unit then the unit the rest of his unit targets, there is no "rest of his unit".

Step 1 of the shooting sequence. Nominate the unit.
Step 2 of the shooting sequence. Target a Riptide. Use Target Lock to target the Kroot.

Cite the denial.

The TL model is firing at a different target. Therefore Zero models are firing at the Primary target. How do you check range and line of sight to a non existent model. You cannot use the TL model for either.

Fragile wrote:
The TL model is firing at a different target. Therefore Zero models are firing at the Primary target. How do you check range and line of sight to a non existent model. You cannot use the TL model for either.

Unit declares target. Measure range and LoS with the Crisis Suit. Riptide is valid target.
Declare TL on Kroot. Measure range and LoS with the Crisis Suit. Kroot are a valid target.

You made an assertion with the underlined that doesn't exist as far as I can tell in the rules. Please cite it.

Shooting is simultaneous, therefore the Unit declares 2 targets. One for the unit, and one for the TL Model. You can draw LOS and range from the TL model. But you cannot from your nonexistant Unit.

I'm not really gonna say anything, other than to weigh in on rigeld's side - I agree with everything he is saying.

Fragile wrote:
Shooting is simultaneous, therefore the Unit declares 2 targets. One for the unit, and one for the TL Model. You can draw LOS and range from the TL model. But you cannot from your nonexistant Unit.

Shooting is simultaneous.
The steps involved in a shooting attack are demonstrably not.

Please cite actual rules to support your assertion.

Then demonstrate them. You fail to show how you can declare a legal shooting attack with no models. The unit declares the target but range and LOS is check on a model by model basis. Without any legal models shooting at the primary target, you have no legal target.

I'm not 100% on Target Lock working, considering you actually target a separate unit to the rest of your unit, meaning at step 2 you're attempting to target 2 different units with only 1 model. This tactic definitely works with Split Fire though, as that doesn't kick in until after you've targeted a unit.

Spl;it fire is worded the same way, separate target from the rest of his unit, if it is a unit of 1 model he cannot fire at a separate target from himself

It shoots at a different unit, it does not target a different unit. Step 3 not Step 2.

Fragile wrote:
Then demonstrate them. You fail to show how you can declare a legal shooting attack with no models. The unit declares the target but range and LOS is check on a model by model basis. Without any legal models shooting at the primary target, you have no legal target.

I have demonstrated them.
Step 1 on page 12 is nominate. I nominate the unit. Agreed?
Step 2 is declare target - I declare the Riptide. I check range and LOS when I declare.
I now have the opportunity to activate Target Lock. I do so, targeting the Kroot. We know that Target Lock cannot be done simultaneous with the unit declaring because it must be at a different target.
And even if it was done simultaneously, I pick the order to so them.

I am not attempting to declare a shooting attack with no models. That's an incorrect summation. Please actually read before writing a knee jerk post.

That is exactly what you are doing. And your just repeating yourself. You have nothing to declare a legal shooting attack with. In essence your claiming that the TL model is shooting at both the primary and secondary target.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
The rest of his unit (all zero models) do fire at the original target.

How are you not declaring a shooting attack with no models when this is exactly what you said you are doing.

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Then demonstrate them. You fail to show how you can declare a legal shooting attack with no models. The unit declares the target but range and LOS is check on a model by model basis. Without any legal models shooting at the primary target, you have no legal target.

I have demonstrated them.
Step 1 on page 12 is nominate. I nominate the unit. Agreed?
Step 2 is declare target - I declare the Riptide. I check range and LOS when I declare.
I now have the opportunity to activate Target Lock. I do so, targeting the Kroot. We know that Target Lock cannot be done simultaneous with the unit declaring because it must be at a different target.
And even if it was done simultaneously, I pick the order to so them.

I am not attempting to declare a shooting attack with no models. That's an incorrect summation. Please actually read before writing a knee jerk post.

Your reasoning above, assumes that the targeting is a sequential event... the unit targets A, THEN the model with TL targets B.


What the others are trying to point out, is that their view of the wording suggests that it all happens at the same time... the unit targets A, AND the model with TL targets B.

The wording of TL says that the model targets B INSTEAD of A, there for in the case of the single model unit, even if you do them sequentially, the instead means that the first choice is overridden by the second for that model, so if there is no 'rest of the unit' to maintain target A, then target A was not targeted.