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Fragile wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
I have also pointed out many situations exist where there will be a 'rest of the unit' but no shots are fired at the Unit Nominated Target....

You haven't shown where there was a legal target yet.

Yes, I have.

Indeed Rigeld has done.

A shooting attack was declared for the unit, then for the model with target lock. Nothing has been broken here.

JinxDragon wrote:
But Rigeld2 has,
Step 2 involves nominating a target for the Unit.
Therefore a Target has been nominated and it is up to the opposition to provide a restriction alone the lines of 'a Target can only be nominated if Models in the shooting Unit choose to fire at it.'

My post is once more pointing out the flaw in the people who keep claiming that there needs to be a rest of the unit in order to evoke Target Lock and asking if they change their view in situations where this 'condition' can be met....

Yes, he has the first step correct, unfortunately there are more than that and it falls apart. Read the Choose a Target paragraph. You must check Range and LOS. Then read those two paragraphs. At least 1 model must have LOS. Then, If no weapons are in range then a different target must be chosen.

A unit of Zero models cannot measure range for the target unit nor do they have LOS.

I select a target. I verify that target with range and LoS.
I activate Target Lock. I select a different target. I verify that target with range and LoS.

Cite a rule that says this is illegal.

You cannot verify a target with range and LOS with your TL model, since he is firing at a different unit. He does not target both.

Fragile wrote:
You cannot verify a target with range and LOS with your TL model, since he is firing at a different unit. He does not target both.

The unit targets the Riptide. Legal?
I measure, a model in the unit's weapon range. I check LoS from the model to the target. Both check out. Legal?
I now have a verified target. Correct?
I activate Target Lock. Legal?
The model targets a Kroot.
I measure using the model's weapon range. I check LoS from the model to the target. Legal?
I have now verified the Target Lock target. Correct?

Please quote which step is illegal and cite a rule.

We are just going in circles now. You keep repeating and avoiding the issue.

Fragile wrote:
We are just going in circles now. You keep repeating and avoiding the issue.

No, I'm asking you to clarify the issue.

Please, quote the illegal step. Cite the rule making it illegal. Do something to support your argument with rules.
I want to be wrong. I have a vested interest in being wrong (I don't play Tau).

Page 12- Paragraph under Choose a target
"Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, choose a target for them to shoot at. To do so, you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting. Note that you may check the range and line of sight to multiple enemy units before deciding which one to shoot at and declaring it to your opponent."
You choose a target to shoot with the "unit".
Unit has selected a target.

Target Lock states "A model with a target lock can shoot at a different target to the rest of his unit."
Model targets and fires at a seperate target than the unit.
Model has shot at a different target.

Page 20 under Declare Charge, last sentence of the page.
"In addition to any of the above, a unit that fired in the Shooting phase can only charge the unit that it targeted during that turn's Shooting phase."
The charging rules merely require a unit to have targeted the unit.


The "unit" targeted the first enemy unit.
The "model" used Target Lock shot at the second enemy unit.
The unit targeted the first enemy unit, and may charge the first enemy unit.

Strict RAW, there is not a rule preventing it. The unit has satisfied all conditions.

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
You cannot verify a target with range and LOS with your TL model, since he is firing at a different unit. He does not target both.

The unit targets the Riptide. Legal?
I measure, a model in the unit's weapon range. I check LoS from the model to the target. Both check out. Legal?
I now have a verified target. Correct?
I activate Target Lock. Legal?
The model targets a Kroot.
I measure using the model's weapon range. I check LoS from the model to the target. Legal?
I have now verified the Target Lock target. Correct?

Please quote which step is illegal and cite a rule.

isn't the entire shooting process taken at the same time across the unit ?

kambien wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
You cannot verify a target with range and LOS with your TL model, since he is firing at a different unit. He does not target both.

The unit targets the Riptide. Legal?
I measure, a model in the unit's weapon range. I check LoS from the model to the target. Both check out. Legal?
I now have a verified target. Correct?
I activate Target Lock. Legal?
The model targets a Kroot.
I measure using the model's weapon range. I check LoS from the model to the target. Legal?
I have now verified the Target Lock target. Correct?

Please quote which step is illegal and cite a rule.

isn't the entire shooting process taken at the same time across the unit ?

Sure. I have to declare targets simultaneously. To declare a target requires checking range and LoS.
When two things must be done simultaneously, the active player decides the order.

rigeld2 wrote:

kambien wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
You cannot verify a target with range and LOS with your TL model, since he is firing at a different unit. He does not target both.

The unit targets the Riptide. Legal?
I measure, a model in the unit's weapon range. I check LoS from the model to the target. Both check out. Legal?
I now have a verified target. Correct?
I activate Target Lock. Legal?
The model targets a Kroot.
I measure using the model's weapon range. I check LoS from the model to the target. Legal?
I have now verified the Target Lock target. Correct?

Please quote which step is illegal and cite a rule.

isn't the entire shooting process taken at the same time across the unit ?

Sure. I have to declare targets simultaneously. To declare a target requires checking range and LoS.
When two things must be done simultaneously, the active player decides the order.

Also, to expand on this, page 12 states under Choose A Target, last sentence, "Note that you may check the range and line of sight to multiple enemy units before deciding which one to shoot at and declaring it to your opponent."

You can check range and line of sight to multiple units, before you shoot, which you have to target before you can shoot obviously.

The only thing explicitly stated to happen at the same time is the shooting itself- top of page 13, under Which Models Can Fire?, last sentence. "This must be declared before rolling To Hit, as all of the models in the unit fire at the same time regardless of whether or not all of the dice are rolled together."(Bold is by the book)

You don't split down the timings a unit chooses a target, or repeat the process the unit chooses a target at 1 time. If the Riptide already has a target, it's too late to 'activate' TL. You should not be activating a special rule which effects Process step 1 after completing process step 1.

I would say TL works as it splits the targets within that unit so TL model has a target, and the rest of the unit have a different target. It allows you to split down targets within the same process step.

What you have is a Riptide with 2 targets, no where in TL does it mention or hint at this - once you have 2 targets there's nothing stopping you from firing at them both. There's a pretty clear target separator in 'different to rest of the unit'. They shoot at a different, fire at a different and have a different target to the rest of the unit.

No, the suit never has two targets in my scenario.
Perhaps you'd like to quote the line above that's illegal and cite a rule showing its illegal? That'd be great, thanks.

rigeld2 wrote:
No, the suit never has two targets in my scenario.
Perhaps you'd like to quote the line above that's illegal and cite a rule showing its illegal? That's be great, thanks.

The Shooting Sequence

1. Nominate a unit to shoot

Were happy that the above is unaffected by TL rule

2. Choose a target
The unit can shoot at one enemy unit it can see. Every Model that wishes to shoot must be able to see the target unit, and must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. Models that can not see the target or are not in range can not shoot.

Emphasis - this is the part which is changed by the special rule

Have you or have you not already decided the target for the unit? If your checking range and LOS from a model, you are checking that model to it's target unit. From the point you check that on range on that model and determine its in range and LOS - you can roll to hit and wound against that target unit you checked against.

The model with TL is not a different unit you don't repeat the process as if it were, when you reach step 2 to choose a target, you simply choose one target for the TL model, and one target for the rest of the unit.

 Nem wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
No, the suit never has two targets in my scenario.
Perhaps you'd like to quote the line above that's illegal and cite a rule showing its illegal? That's be great, thanks.

The Shooting Sequence

1. Nominate a unit to shoot

Were happy that the above is unaffected by TL rule

2. Choose a target
The unit can shoot at one enemy unit it can see. Every Model that wishes to shoot must be able to see the target unit, and must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. Models that can not see the target or are not in range can not shoot.

Emphasis - this is the part which is changed by the special rule

Have you or have you not already decided the target for the unit? If your checking range and LOS from a model, you are checking that model to it's target unit. From the point you check that on range on that model and determine its in range and LOS - you can roll to hit and wound against that target unit you checked against.

The model with TL is not a different unit you don't repeat the process as if it were, when you reach step 2 to choose a target, you simply choose one target for the TL model, and one target for the rest of the unit.

Both of your examples specify the unit must have a target, which the unit does. Target Lock special specifies a model may choose a seperate target- he has a target as a unit, and a seperate target as a model satisfying target lock's criteria. Both criteria have been met. There is not any rule specifying this as an illegal action. The unit is not required to shoot at the first target. You're trying to argue that since the unit is a single model that unit and model are the same term- which the rules do not support. There are abilities that only affect models, and some that affect the entire unit- the rules have made a distinction between the two.

 Nem wrote:

2. Choose a target
The unit can shoot at one enemy unit it can see. Every Model that wishes to shoot must be able to see the target unit, and must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. Models that can not see the target or are not in range can not shoot.

Emphasis - this is the part which is changed by the special rule

Have you or have you not already decided the target for the unit? If your checking range and LOS from a model, you are checking that model to it's target unit. From the point you check that on range on that model and determine its in range and LOS - you can roll to hit and wound against that target unit you checked against.

Have something to back up that statement?
If there are two suits, one with flamers and one with plasma, and I check LoS and Range from the plasma guy to someone 5" away, am I able to TL the plasma guy to target a unit 15" away? Why or why not?

The model with TL is not a different unit you don't repeat the process as if it were, when you reach step 2 to choose a target, you simply choose one target for the TL model, and one target for the rest of the unit.

I'm not repeating the process. I'm following the rules for wargear which requires me to select a target. Since it must be a different target from the rest of the unit I must have declared the target for the rest of the unit prior to declaring the TL target.

 Sinful Hero wrote:

Both of your examples specify the unit must have a target, which the unit does. Target Lock special specifies a model may choose a seperate target- he has a target as a unit, and a seperate target as a model satisfying target lock's criteria. Both criteria have been met. There is not any rule specifying this as an illegal action. The unit is not required to shoot at the first target. You're trying to argue that since the unit is a single model that unit and model are the same term- which the rules do not support. There are abilities that only affect models, and some that affect the entire unit- the rules have made a distinction between the two.

You are stopping the same place Rigeld does.
1. Choose a unit. No issues here.
2. Choose a target. Unit chooses A, TL chooses B. Again no issues here. No you have to resolve two separate shooting attacks from here forward.
2a. Check LOS. Unit has no model in LOS. (To Target the enemy unit, at least one model must have LOS. pg12). Unit could not fire without LOS unless it has special rule (SMS perhaps?). TL can see its target and can proceed.
2b. Check range. Unit has no model to check range with. (If no weapons are in range, then a different target must be chosen. pg 12). Target A is now no longer a valid target due to range. TL checks range with B.

No, I'm asking you to clarify the issue.

Please, quote the illegal step. Cite the rule making it illegal. Do something to support your argument with rules.
I want to be wrong. I have a vested interest in being wrong (I don't play Tau).

I guess you could say that my argument is that you are stopping in the shooting process too soon, and your trying to equate the TL model with the unit, which you cannot do once the shooting process begins. The TL rule separates the TL model so that you no longer can use the TL model as a model for LOS and Range for both the Unit and TL model.

Fragile wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

Both of your examples specify the unit must have a target, which the unit does. Target Lock special specifies a model may choose a seperate target- he has a target as a unit, and a seperate target as a model satisfying target lock's criteria. Both criteria have been met. There is not any rule specifying this as an illegal action. The unit is not required to shoot at the first target. You're trying to argue that since the unit is a single model that unit and model are the same term- which the rules do not support. There are abilities that only affect models, and some that affect the entire unit- the rules have made a distinction between the two.

You are stopping the same place Rigeld does.
1. Choose a unit. No issues here.
2. Choose a target. Unit chooses A, TL chooses B. Again no issues here. No you have to resolve two separate shooting attacks from here forward.
2a. Check LOS. Unit has no model in LOS. (To Target the enemy unit, at least one model must have LOS. pg12). Unit could not fire without LOS unless it has special rule (SMS perhaps?). TL can see its target and can proceed.
2b. Check range. Unit has no model to check range with. (If no weapons are in range, then a different target must be chosen. pg 12). Target A is now no longer a valid target due to range. TL checks range with B.

You cannot choose a unit without checking range and LoS. So it's choose target verify range and LoS. Choose TL target (must be second as it must be a different target, and you cannot be sure unit has a valid target), check range and LoS.

No, I'm asking you to clarify the issue.

Please, quote the illegal step. Cite the rule making it illegal. Do something to support your argument with rules.
I want to be wrong. I have a vested interest in being wrong (I don't play Tau).

I guess you could say that my argument is that you are stopping in the shooting process too soon, and your trying to equate the TL model with the unit, which you cannot do once the shooting process begins. The TL rule separates the TL model so that you no longer can use the TL model as a model for LOS and Range for both the Unit and TL model.

I'm not stopping in the shooting process ever.
Let me ask this:
I have 2 suits in a unit. Using your method, I declare the unit to shoot at unit A and TL the second suit off to unit B. While checking LoS it turns out the first suit cannot see unit A, so it's an invalid target. The TL suit can see unit B clearly and is in range. IF there are no other targets, please explain how to resolve this situation.

Fragile wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

Both of your examples specify the unit must have a target, which the unit does. Target Lock special specifies a model may choose a seperate target- he has a target as a unit, and a seperate target as a model satisfying target lock's criteria. Both criteria have been met. There is not any rule specifying this as an illegal action. The unit is not required to shoot at the first target. You're trying to argue that since the unit is a single model that unit and model are the same term- which the rules do not support. There are abilities that only affect models, and some that affect the entire unit- the rules have made a distinction between the two.

You are stopping the same place Rigeld does.
1. Choose a unit. No issues here.
2. Choose a target. Unit chooses A, TL chooses B. Again no issues here. No you have to resolve two separate shooting attacks from here forward.
2a. Check LOS. Unit has no model in LOS. (To Target the enemy unit, at least one model must have LOS. pg12). Unit could not fire without LOS unless it has special rule (SMS perhaps?). TL can see its target and can proceed.
2b. Check range. Unit has no model to check range with. (If no weapons are in range, then a different target must be chosen. pg 12). Target A is now no longer a valid target due to range. TL checks range with B.

No, I'm asking you to clarify the issue.

Please, quote the illegal step. Cite the rule making it illegal. Do something to support your argument with rules.
I want to be wrong. I have a vested interest in being wrong (I don't play Tau).

I guess you could say that my argument is that you are stopping in the shooting process too soon, and your trying to equate the TL model with the unit, which you cannot do once the shooting process begins. The TL rule separates the TL model so that you no longer can use the TL model as a model for LOS and Range for both the Unit and TL model.

The issue is the unit targeting an enemy, using target lock to target and shoot a different enemy, and charging the first, correct? Because targetng does not specify you have to shoot the enemy unit, merely declare it at a targe, and assaulting does not specify you have to have shot the enemy unit, but only target it. All criteria have been met.

 Sinful Hero wrote:

The issue is the unit targeting an enemy, using target lock to target and shoot a different enemy, and charging the first, correct? Because targetng does not specify you have to shoot the enemy unit, merely declare it at a targe, and assaulting does not specify you have to have shot the enemy unit, but only target it. All criteria have been met.

You are correct, shooting is not required. But your not explaining how you get around the fact that the target was not legally targeted. You can claim you targeted A, but if you dont meet the rules for LOS/Range you must Target a different unit. Meaning A is no longer your Target.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
I'm not stopping in the shooting process ever.
Let me ask this:
I have 2 suits in a unit. Using your method, I declare the unit to shoot at unit A and TL the second suit off to unit B. While checking LoS it turns out the first suit cannot see unit A, so it's an invalid target. The TL suit can see unit B clearly and is in range. IF there are no other targets, please explain how to resolve this situation.

Target A would not be a valid target for a charge (assuming TL could see it)

Fragile wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

The issue is the unit targeting an enemy, using target lock to target and shoot a different enemy, and charging the first, correct? Because targetng does not specify you have to shoot the enemy unit, merely declare it at a targe, and assaulting does not specify you have to have shot the enemy unit, but only target it. All criteria have been met.

You are correct, shooting is not required. But your not explaining how you get around the fact that the target was not legally targeted. You can claim you targeted A, but if you dont meet the rules for LOS/Range you must Target a different unit. Meaning A is no longer your Target.

And if both targets are in range and LOS? Is not the action legal?

 Sinful Hero wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

The issue is the unit targeting an enemy, using target lock to target and shoot a different enemy, and charging the first, correct? Because targetng does not specify you have to shoot the enemy unit, merely declare it at a targe, and assaulting does not specify you have to have shot the enemy unit, but only target it. All criteria have been met.

You are correct, shooting is not required. But your not explaining how you get around the fact that the target was not legally targeted. You can claim you targeted A, but if you dont meet the rules for LOS/Range you must Target a different unit. Meaning A is no longer your Target.

And if both targets are in range and LOS? Is not the action legal?

Your starting this thread over, go back and reread it. This was already covered.

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I'm not stopping in the shooting process ever.
Let me ask this:
I have 2 suits in a unit. Using your method, I declare the unit to shoot at unit A and TL the second suit off to unit B. While checking LoS it turns out the first suit cannot see unit A, so it's an invalid target. The TL suit can see unit B clearly and is in range. IF there are no other targets, please explain how to resolve this situation.

Target A would not be a valid target for a charge (assuming TL could see it)

So the first suit is unable to fire?
Even though there's a valid target to shoot (unit B)?

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I'm not stopping in the shooting process ever.
Let me ask this:
I have 2 suits in a unit. Using your method, I declare the unit to shoot at unit A and TL the second suit off to unit B. While checking LoS it turns out the first suit cannot see unit A, so it's an invalid target. The TL suit can see unit B clearly and is in range. IF there are no other targets, please explain how to resolve this situation.

Target A would not be a valid target for a charge (assuming TL could see it)

So the first suit is unable to fire?
Even though there's a valid target to shoot (unit B)?

that would be correct since you are told when out of LOS.Range you must select a different target

kambien wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I'm not stopping in the shooting process ever.
Let me ask this:
I have 2 suits in a unit. Using your method, I declare the unit to shoot at unit A and TL the second suit off to unit B. While checking LoS it turns out the first suit cannot see unit A, so it's an invalid target. The TL suit can see unit B clearly and is in range. IF there are no other targets, please explain how to resolve this situation.

Target A would not be a valid target for a charge (assuming TL could see it)

So the first suit is unable to fire?
Even though there's a valid target to shoot (unit B)?

that would be correct since you are told when out of LOS.Range you must select a different target

Cite the limitation on the first suit that tells him he may not select unit B as a target.
The TL suit has a requirement to select a different target than the rest of the unit, but the non-TL suit has no restrictions at all.
You're placing one. Cite a reason.

Because your stuck in a loop with suit A , you must select a valid target with LoS/Range , target lock does not give permission for the unit to break that rule

kambien wrote:
Because your stuck in a loop with suit A , you must select a valid target with LoS/Range , target lock does not give permission for the unit to break that rule

Target Lock is a restriction on the TL suit, not on the non-TL suit.
Cite the restriction on the non-TL suit.

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I'm not stopping in the shooting process ever.
Let me ask this:
I have 2 suits in a unit. Using your method, I declare the unit to shoot at unit A and TL the second suit off to unit B. While checking LoS it turns out the first suit cannot see unit A, so it's an invalid target. The TL suit can see unit B clearly and is in range. IF there are no other targets, please explain how to resolve this situation.

Target A would not be a valid target for a charge (assuming TL could see it)

So the first suit is unable to fire?
Even though there's a valid target to shoot (unit B)?

If we are talking about shooting now, then the unit would have to pick a different target, which would be Unit B if they wanted to shoot. This would make the TL redundant.

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I'm not stopping in the shooting process ever.
Let me ask this:
I have 2 suits in a unit. Using your method, I declare the unit to shoot at unit A and TL the second suit off to unit B. While checking LoS it turns out the first suit cannot see unit A, so it's an invalid target. The TL suit can see unit B clearly and is in range. IF there are no other targets, please explain how to resolve this situation.

Target A would not be a valid target for a charge (assuming TL could see it)

So the first suit is unable to fire?
Even though there's a valid target to shoot (unit B)?

If we are talking about shooting now, then the unit would have to pick a different target, which would be Unit B if they wanted to shoot. This would make the TL redundant.

But I thought I wasn't allowed to go back in the shooting process and do that?