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Are there any known examples in 40k of a situation akin to what we know as a cold war? Factions hostile to each other and really wanting to blow each other to smithereens and being fully capable of doing so yet holding off from doing so because doing so would be more hindrance than help in one way or another?
The Kasrkin were just men. It made their actions all the more astonishing. Six white blurs, they fell upon the cultists, lasguns barking at close range. They wasted no shots. One shot, one kill. - Eisenhorn: Malleus
The Imperium and the Tau are the big one, because the Imperium has bigger fish to fry and the Tau don't want to provoke the Imperium into open war.
Some craftworlds are also in this state with the Imperium, though others are in a more conventional state of peace to the point of allowing trade missions.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
The Imperium vs the Tau.
The Imperium vs the Eldar.
The Ecclesiarchy vs the Space Wolves
Factions of the Inquisition vs the Space Wolves
The Inquisition vs a whole lot of Space Marine Chapters
The Ecclesiarchy vs the Adeptus Mechanicus.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Planet Verghast: Cold War between Vervunhive and Ferrozoica Hives. During the Sabbat worlds crusade, open war broke out as Chaos overthrew Ferrozoica and enslaved the Hive's populace as a massive army.
Iron_Captain wrote: The Space Wolves had a cold war with the Grey Knights (which turned hot in the end)
I'm interested to know when this happened as well. I know they had a beef with them and the Inquisition after the events of the First War of Armageddon, but I wasn't aware that it ever escalated to the point of actual conflict.
Read "The Emperor's Gift" I believe that's the name anyway. It details how the grey knights were the ones who were to exterminate the guards exposed to Angron, and how the space wolves said no.
Exterminating the Guardsmen on Armageddon made rather little sense given that the Guard is explicitly allowed to know that Chaos and Daemons exist even if they're a bit fuzzy on the details.
The PDF and Civilians? Sure I'll buy that.
But the Guard? No, that contradicts every guard vs chaos match up elsewhere.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
never in the field of human conflict, has so much been fired at so many, by so few.
My name is Maximus Decimus Meridius, Commander of the armies of the North, General of the Felix Legions. Loyal servant to the true emperor Marcus Aurelius. Father to a murdered son, husband to a murdered wife. And I will have my vengeance, in this life or the next.
Please leave your message after the tone...
Kain wrote: Exterminating the Guardsmen on Armageddon made rather little sense given that the Guard is explicitly allowed to know that Chaos and Daemons exist even if they're a bit fuzzy on the details.
The PDF and Civilians? Sure I'll buy that.
But the Guard? No, that contradicts every guard vs chaos match up elsewhere.
Actually, it doesn't. Studio fluff stretching back 20 years now speaks often of entire IG regiments being "executed, with full honors" for being exposed to Chaos.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
I always felt that was a rather silly contradiction forced into the fluff for the sake of grim darkness. It leaves us with a weird situation where some guard are executed for fighting Chaos and some... aren't.
Kinda like how the traitor legions and Horus were declared perditas or whatever the declaration for wiping someone from the record was yet we still have tons of people around that know of the Horus Heresy (and Sanguinus' holiday, etc) as if it were common knowledge, even among some citizenry.
I'm not aware of any fluff source EXPLICITLY saying Cadians are allowed to know about the existence of Chaos as an exception to the rule, either. We all assume it because well duh, but I don't think the fluff explicitly ever stated "Cadians are allowed to know about Chaos because it's necessary to their job and it's right there on their doorstep all the time." We instead are forced to extrapolate that fact.
I could be wrong. I'm not that well-versed on WH40k when it comes to these finer details.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/09 17:35:26
It's not really 'allowed' so much as 'how the fething hell are you going to hide something that's literally right next door to these people?!'
The Eye takes up most of their night sky, their planet is covered in Necron Pylons designed to weaken the Warp, and the entire planet is under martial law because even with the Pylons chaos cults and daemonic incursions happen so often you can set your watch by them. I'd really like to hear how you'd go about keeping an entire planet's population in the dark about the very things they have to deal with in their daily lives.
Lord-Captain Cepinari wrote: It's not really 'allowed' so much as 'how the fething hell are you going to hide something that's literally right next door to these people?!'
The Eye takes up most of their night sky, their planet is covered in Necron Pylons designed to weaken the Warp, and the entire planet is under martial law because even with the Pylons chaos cults and daemonic incursions happen so often you can set your watch by them. I'd really like to hear how you'd go about keeping an entire planet's population in the dark about the very things they have to deal with in their daily lives.
Yes, but the fluff never explicitly said that, either. Again, we are forced to deduce that. In a universe where Chaos is supposed to be censored in a medium with so many codexes, short stories, and novels, you'd think we'd at least have the courtesy of a sentence given to us saying a planet knew about Chaos explicitly because they were forced to (and not just Cadia but ANY planet that's been attacked by chaos and not exterminatus'd or purged afterwards, of which there are quite a lot of explicit examples)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/09 17:53:56
In the totality of the Guard, the Cadian Regiments are less than 1% of 1% of 1% of their total numbers. So this relatively-miniscule number of soldiers that lives right there at the edge of the Eye knowing about Chaos does not threaten the stability of the rest of the Guard, where if you have, say, even 5% of the total force knowing what Chaos is (and this is knowledge that can, literally, corrupt the soul of the knower, and lead them into all kinds of daemonic pacts and warp-tainted shenanigans) then you risk this cancer spreading throughout the IG, and destabilizing entire crusades.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Psienesis wrote: In the totality of the Guard, the Cadian Regiments are less than 1% of 1% of 1% of their total numbers. So this relatively-miniscule number of soldiers that lives right there at the edge of the Eye knowing about Chaos does not threaten the stability of the rest of the Guard, where if you have, say, even 5% of the total force knowing what Chaos is (and this is knowledge that can, literally, corrupt the soul of the knower, and lead them into all kinds of daemonic pacts and warp-tainted shenanigans) then you risk this cancer spreading throughout the IG, and destabilizing entire crusades.
This is an actual honest question, and not a retort in the form of a question. What were all those regiments in the Sabbat Worlds crusade told about the issue? Or the forces fighting in the Black Crusades? And I mean AS EXPLICITLY STATED, as opposed to extrapolated and deduced by you, me, or anyone outside of GW/BL. Now, again, I don't know the finer details of the fluff nor have I read everything first hand, but I'm not aware of any stories from the Black Crusades or Sabbat Worlds crusades or other similar crusades vs Chaos where we've been shown the perspective of a guardsman that DIDN'T know them as Chaos.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/04/09 17:58:28
Kain wrote: Exterminating the Guardsmen on Armageddon made rather little sense given that the Guard is explicitly allowed to know that Chaos and Daemons exist even if they're a bit fuzzy on the details.
The PDF and Civilians? Sure I'll buy that.
But the Guard? No, that contradicts every guard vs chaos match up elsewhere.
Actually, it doesn't. Studio fluff stretching back 20 years now speaks often of entire IG regiments being "executed, with full honors" for being exposed to Chaos.
Ignoring all the guard regiments who have very much seen and destroyed chaos.
Better tell Chenkov, Creed, the Valhallan 597th, every guard regiment to show up in a video game, the entirety of the Sabbat Worlds Crusade, and so on that they're dead.
It's silly and dumb and most authors just flat out ignore it as they should, because it makes the Imperium look dumb and dark for the sake of being dumb and dark. And if the authors ignore it; and as there is no hierarchy of lore; it is the old lore that is in the wrong here.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
The Sabbat Crusade is featured in a Black Library series, which is not required to adhere to anything published anywhere in a Codex (which is why most everyone in the Ghosts wears carapace armor, for example). The BL novels are not required to follow any kind of canon or consistency (and, in fact, do not, as the books from one author can and will directly contradict the books of another). They also don't establish a canon, because there isn't one in 40K, beyond a few basic concepts (the Heresy was a thing, the Emperor is on the Golden Throne of Terra, Blood Angels wear red, Ultramarines wear blue... and that's about it.)
They also only encounter Traitor Marines... like, twice. And then it's basically the command staff, and thus almost all of the "named" characters, and Abnett isn't going to kill them off, because otherwise he's out a book deal.
There's also a difference between fighting, say, the Blood Pact or some Traitor Guard and seeing actual Daemons or, as was the case at Armageddon, a Daemon Primarch. These latter two cases are far, far more extreme (and is knowledge that is far, far more dangerous) than just seeing some deluded nut-jobs who have rebelled against the Imperium. This is knowledge the Imperium does not want getting out (also because just seeing a Daemon and thinking the wrong thing can get you instantly possessed or Warp-Tainted.)
Human soldiers of Chaos are rebels and traitors, easily understood and explained as simply a moral failing, but not involving any particular philosophical or theological conundrums or issues... there's not much meta-physics involved.
To bear witness to the very son of the God-Emperor twisted into a daemonic monstrosity and surrounded by the very things of nightmare made flesh and driven by malignant, diabolic intelligence... that's a much different story.
And at the time, GW's stance was "see daemons? Get honorably executed at the battle's end". Also, "See Grey Knights? Get honorably executed at the battle's end. Unless you're a Space Marine, in which case you get mind-wiped."
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Psienesis wrote: The Sabbat Crusade is featured in a Black Library series, which is not required to adhere to anything published anywhere in a Codex (which is why most everyone in the Ghosts wears carapace armor, for example). The BL novels are not required to follow any kind of canon or consistency (and, in fact, do not, as the books from one author can and will directly contradict the books of another). They also don't establish a canon, because there isn't one in 40K, beyond a few basic concepts (the Heresy was a thing, the Emperor is on the Golden Throne of Terra, Blood Angels wear red, Ultramarines wear blue... and that's about it.)
They also only encounter Traitor Marines... like, twice. And then it's basically the command staff, and thus almost all of the "named" characters, and Abnett isn't going to kill them off, because otherwise he's out a book deal.
There's also a difference between fighting, say, the Blood Pact or some Traitor Guard and seeing actual Daemons or, as was the case at Armageddon, a Daemon Primarch. These latter two cases are far, far more extreme (and is knowledge that is far, far more dangerous) than just seeing some deluded nut-jobs who have rebelled against the Imperium. This is knowledge the Imperium does not want getting out (also because just seeing a Daemon and thinking the wrong thing can get you instantly possessed or Warp-Tainted.)
Human soldiers of Chaos are rebels and traitors, easily understood and explained as simply a moral failing, but not involving any particular philosophical or theological conundrums or issues... there's not much meta-physics involved.
To bear witness to the very son of the God-Emperor twisted into a daemonic monstrosity and surrounded by the very things of nightmare made flesh and driven by malignant, diabolic intelligence... that's a much different story.
And at the time, GW's stance was "see daemons? Get honorably executed at the battle's end". Also, "See Grey Knights? Get honorably executed at the battle's end. Unless you're a Space Marine, in which case you get mind-wiped."
Look at all these people who were never executed afterwards even though a puritanical inquisitor and hardline commissar was literally right with them the whole time!
Or the Valhallan 597th who never had anyone executed for knowing about Chaos.
Or Chekov who fights Chaos and is never executed.
Or just about any of the special characters who aren't busy with fighting xenos.
The fluff you're adhering to serves no purpose other than to establish that the Imperium is stupid for the sake of cheap darkness. It is being increasingly ignored by writers as time goes along and it should stay ignored honestly.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
Look at that video game produced by a third-party studio that claims that an Inquisitor doesn't have the authority to requisition a Space Marine Chapter.
Seriously, if you're going to use DoW as the basis for your head-canon, go right ahead, but the purpose of that game was, first and foremost, to be a fun RTS.
Otherwise, the Blood Ravens quite possibly never escape the first game, because you can easily get 1000 Marines killed in about twenty minutes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/09 19:19:25
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Psienesis wrote: Look at that video game produced by a third-party studio that claims that an Inquisitor doesn't have the authority to requisition a Space Marine Chapter.
Relic has proven to have a better handle on creating a functioning meta-plot than the drooling lobotomized amoebic idiots who run GW and couldn't tell their own heads from their asses if you marked them with neon signs the size of landing strips.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
Psienesis wrote: They sure can't keep a business running though, so I gotta hand the victory to GW.
THQ can't run a business, Relic simply moved to SEGA.
GW only survives because it stands on the shoulder of giants who have long left the company, leaving a group of people so dumb and incompetent, that if I were to bring out a rock; I would have in my hands more intelligence than the entirety of GW.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
If you say so. I'm not going to debate the business decisions of either company (because things were definitely off-the-chain at Relic, too; THQ is not solely responsible for that debacle), but the main point is that the DoW games are designed, first and foremost, to be a fun RTS and encompass enough of a 40K feel to make 40K fans feel at home, and for those who weren't already into 40K, to serve as enough of an introduction to drive them to buy books and models. Incidentally, Relic didn't move to Sega... just its IPs. The studio itself was disbanded and, last I had heard, anyway, none of its human resources were brought on-board at Sega.
It also plays rather fast and loose with the setting in its various entries in the series (Soulstorm, most notably, though I suppose its storyline is... sufficiently plausible... sort of) and some of the things the game requires/involves are a bit wonky, or completely outside of the normal stance of the setting (the poor Eldar are forced to fight a head-on battle, for example, as the hit-and-run tactics they normally use are useless in the game, as everything can be rebuilt and repaired or regenerated very quickly... they are one of the hardest armies to win with in any of the entries that are not squad-based.)
It's a marketing tool as much as it is a video game (which, really, is true of any licensed product for anything.)
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
Radical and puritan inquisitors leap to mind.
It's true that DOWII writing, at least pre-Retribution, blow GW writing out of the water.
Seriously, vanilla DoWII managed to make deep and interesting characters out of Space Marines, the same race that was designed by GW to be a bolterporn race. Not that there's anything wrong in being a race existing to blow your mind with foly feth they're cool, but it's still very nice of Relic to create those characters.
I am pretty sure the Guard normally does not get executed after fighting Chaos. Even with the resources the Imperium has, that would be extremely stupid, considering how often the IG has to confront Chaos forces.
If they were executed, I am sure it would be mentioned more often instead of almost never.
I guess it only happens in extreme circumstances like when a Deamon Primarch is involved, or when the deamonic horrors are too great for the survivors to bear, turning them into potential risks.
