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Hey guys,

As you may or may not know Adepticon 2014 has come and gone and winners have been named. Today I was perusing BoLS and saw an article about the winning list. After going over the list I found myself with a few questions!

#1. Why does the Heldrake have the Hades auto cannon

#2. What are the tactics used with the bastion.

#3. Was there a reason the sorcerer has a sword over an axe besides modeling?

Links to the article and an image of the list below.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/04/40k-unbeatable-list-adepticon-winning.html

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-eJsDux1dbhk/U0OHkfV1rCI/AAAAAAAAd2o/YN8uXg1jx1U/s1600/adepticon-winner-2014.png

The hades was a typo. It was a blame flamer. FMC circus. Boring.

That's not a particularly useful comment Martel732. It was no more or less boring than the large number of Tau/Eldar lists in attendance. I'm certainly interested in some of the nuances behind how the list plays, not just what's in it.

Sorry. Just been tabled by FMC too many times and I feel like I know that song and dance.

Also, the winner even admitted that the large number of kill point missions helped him greatly.

Well, just because there were a number of those missions doesn't mean they're auto-win, by any stretch. And, were all the missions published ahead of time? Because if not, he had to have a plan to win non-killpoint games, right?

I could totally understand taking a bastion considering that sometimes you have very very low amount of terrain especially LOS blocking terrain , seeing some of those pictures tables are kind of bare.

The missions were not posted ahead of time. We were able to get the packet the night before though. And talking to him about the bastion it's a 75 pt LOS blocker that he can also hide troops in basically, idk about the sword though.

 Redbeard wrote:
Well, just because there were a number of those missions doesn't mean they're auto-win, by any stretch. And, were all the missions published ahead of time? Because if not, he had to have a plan to win non-killpoint games, right?

I'm not saying he's not an amazing general. I'm sure his off days are better than my best days. It's just that his list falls squarely into the bin of "things I expect to see at a tournament in the current meta". Mass FMCs is not that much better to face than WS spam or Quad riptides. They all have the property of rendering regular marines (and many other troops) completely useless.

50% Tau/Eldar/Space Marines

Bleh. Latest tournament here was the same, over 50% Eldar/Tau alone IIRC.

I like the fact that aside from the Plaguebearers, this list is almost fluffy.

To say the least Nick plays this list very well. To call the list boring is simply stating your personal preference which is good on you mate, go play your own army then lol.

1) As stated before it was a typo and had a bale-flamer.

2) The bastion is a cornerstone in Nicks list. The problem many FMC players face is Tau and Eldar. Not knowing what terrain placement is going to be like you get some assurance for LoS blocking terrain. Also, When placed in the back edge of your board you can use the bastion to run cultist and the sorc into from reserves. The problem many FMC lists have are troops, the standard is 3 with portal, regardless of mission type. Having so few troops helped in this format, however winning objective games is still not too terribly difficult as we can troop hunt effectively and contest fairly easily.

3) I imagine the sorc has a sword to strike at initiative. If the bastion is blown up they can hide in the ruins and anything without grenades charging in is going to be striking at i1. This gives a chance to kill Daemon Princes and the like.

Great player, boring list.

Anywayz, bastion is good for los-blocking.Tyranids also take bastions now for the exact same reason. It's worth it's points especially if you go second.

I'm not sure if Adepticon allows Stronghold Assault, but tor 50 points (or for 75, 100 depending on what you want to take) I would say Void Shield Generator is the much better investment now. As big and LOS blocking as bastion is and with much better protection against alpha strike for potentially the whole list.

I don't think that Hades Autocannon is a typo.

He doesn't need a single Baleflamer with all the Vector-striking, cover ignoring AP 3 that he gets. What he probably wants is some shooting to get rid of transports like Wave Serpents and the like. A prescienced Hades Autocannon should do a good enough job of slowly stripping HP while staying safe in the air.

Hmmm, I'm not trying to start anything here but my Orks have repeatedly beaten good players using 5 FMC including fate weaver at 2000 points. There's a guy who almost solely plays internet lists and I win against him about half the time and he's really good. Never an easy win.

I'd much rather face this list than any combination of Tau/Eldar.

Maybe I can get this guy to play this exact list.

 PipeAlley wrote:
Hmmm, I'm not trying to start anything here but my Orks have repeatedly beaten good players using 5 FMC including fate weaver at 2000 points. There's a guy who almost solely plays internet lists and I win against him about half the time and he's really good. Never an easy win.

I'd much rather face this list than any combination of Tau/Eldar.

Maybe I can get this guy to play this exact list.

I'd say the Flying Circus is one of the toughest top-tier netlists to general. Every game you have to adapt to the rewards and psychic powers that your Princes roll. The movement phase for that army is more nerve racking than in any other army I've played. Do I hide? Do I need to be aggressive? If I hide/play aggresively will I be in range to cast the buffs I need where I need them? Is the grimoire going to work this time? Do I fly off the board? If I fly the grimoire off the board is he coming back next turn?

It's alot to manage, and I think it takes a skilled player to do it, especially in an environment such as Adepticon.

Props to the general, and glory for Chaos!

Lou_Cypher wrote:
I don't think that Hades Autocannon is a typo.

He doesn't need a single Baleflamer with all the Vector-striking, cover ignoring AP 3 that he gets. What he probably wants is some shooting to get rid of transports like Wave Serpents and the like. A prescienced Hades Autocannon should do a good enough job of slowly stripping HP while staying safe in the air.

If you follow the link, the person who created this list of army lists stated that it was a typo. It had a baleflamer. I'm just reporting the news.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PipeAlley wrote:
Hmmm, I'm not trying to start anything here but my Orks have repeatedly beaten good players using 5 FMC including fate weaver at 2000 points. There's a guy who almost solely plays internet lists and I win against him about half the time and he's really good. Never an easy win.

I'd much rather face this list than any combination of Tau/Eldar.

Maybe I can get this guy to play this exact list.

There's a lot to be said for NOT having your army start vanishing from 36" away from your opponent.

 astro_nomicon wrote:

 PipeAlley wrote:
Hmmm, I'm not trying to start anything here but my Orks have repeatedly beaten good players using 5 FMC including fate weaver at 2000 points. There's a guy who almost solely plays internet lists and I win against him about half the time and he's really good. Never an easy win.

I'd much rather face this list than any combination of Tau/Eldar.

Maybe I can get this guy to play this exact list.

I'd say the Flying Circus is one of the toughest top-tier netlists to general. Every game you have to adapt to the rewards and psychic powers that your Princes roll. The movement phase for that army is more nerve racking than in any other army I've played. Do I hide? Do I need to be aggressive? If I hide/play aggresively will I be in range to cast the buffs I need where I need them? Is the grimoire going to work this time? Do I fly off the board? If I fly the grimoire off the board is he coming back next turn?

It's alot to manage, and I think it takes a skilled player to do it, especially in an environment such as Adepticon.

Props to the general, and glory for Chaos!

Yeah the guy I play against is usually "go big or go home" and since I'm the only Ork player reliably there he usually face MEQ or Tau.

I'm all bunkered up and my Lootas, Shootas, and you guessed it: nob Bikerz have no problem wounding and downing t5 FMC's. Since he pretty much has to come at me, I just shoot and shoot. I do hate the fear Ld based psychic powers but otherwise don't really have an issue.

Also the Chaos ID weapons can be a huge!!!! PITA against my Bikers and BikerBoss. That's who I shoot first.

Tzeentch circus is terrifying. We have a player locally who normally doesn't play TFG lists but he broke and did it. Its absolutely awesome. 5 fmc', all sorcerers and a heldrake. Its impressive to say the ABSOLUTE least. I haven't lost three in a row in about a decade. He did it to me. Now he didn't table me and the games were all close but dayam. Rerolling 1's, a re-roll per round, blah blah blah. I was very impressed. I know how to beat it but bad luck goes a long way when fighting that. You have to execute very well against it and I feel you MUST practice against it a few times to get used to it. No practice would make this hella tough on the unprepared.

Honestly, winning against beastpacks and gravstars is pretty impressive with this list. I'm not sure how he managed it, considering FMC spam is hovering somewhere around the bottom of Tier 1 or top of Tier 2 lists at the moment.

astro_nomicon wrote:

 PipeAlley wrote:
Hmmm, I'm not trying to start anything here but my Orks have repeatedly beaten good players using 5 FMC including fate weaver at 2000 points. There's a guy who almost solely plays internet lists and I win against him about half the time and he's really good. Never an easy win.

I'd much rather face this list than any combination of Tau/Eldar.

Maybe I can get this guy to play this exact list.

Do I fly off the board? If I fly the grimoire off the board is he coming back next turn?

Why, its called "Ongoing Reserves". They always come back next turn.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:Honestly, winning against beastpacks and gravstars is pretty impressive with this list. I'm not sure how he managed it, considering FMC spam is hovering somewhere around the bottom of Tier 1 or top of Tier 2 lists at the moment.

I would think the list/concept rates higher than that.

 PipeAlley wrote:
I'd much rather face this list than any combination of Tau/Eldar.

Amen to that. Sure its just different flavours of cheese, but this one won't just shoot you off of the board turn one at least.

How do you kill the FMC with Orks btw?

 Dakkamite wrote:

 PipeAlley wrote:
I'd much rather face this list than any combination of Tau/Eldar.

Amen to that. Sure its just different flavours of cheese, but this one won't just shoot you off of the board turn one at least.

How do you kill the FMC with Orks btw?

Agreed. This list IS trickier than Tau/Eldar, as it gives the opponent to do.. something.

There is an interview with Nick on ToF. He explains each game. I think Nick helped to make Tzeentch flying circus a top meta list and his LoC is a bit unique. There were lots of boring lists at Chicago this past weekend. It's that way every year.

 Dakkamite wrote:

 PipeAlley wrote:
I'd much rather face this list than any combination of Tau/Eldar.

Amen to that. Sure its just different flavours of cheese, but this one won't just shoot you off of the board turn one at least.

How do you kill the FMC with Orks btw?

45 Lootas in 3 Battlewagons each with a Kannon and 4 rokkits all sitting on a Skyshield Landing Pad.

Shoota boys off to one side of the Skyshield and NobBikerz with BikerBoss on the other side.

Most games I lose a single Battlewagon and a couple of HP's off another.

I concentrate on anything with ID weapons of course. The most important thing is to COMPLETELY kill off a FMC before shooting another one.

The open-topped BW's make this pretty easy.

Of course this list was made to counter ignores cover tau. It just happens to work against an army that has to spending at least one turn flying at you and randoming shooting you.

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

FMC spam is hovering somewhere around the bottom of Tier 1 or top of Tier 2 lists at the moment.

Uh...Did you somehow miss the part where it won Adepticon? I am sorry but I look at results and Ive SEEN the results here. NO ARMY in TEN YEARS has managed to do this to me. THATS a feat I can't ignore even if someone (insane) wanted to call winning Adepticon a fluke..And Im not insane enough to disrespect success. Success on that scale is the one thing no one should be arguing. It happened. Hold on your their intellectual integrity folks. That just happened. And it's not isolated.

In our last tourney, a Tzeentch flying Daemon list ended a DAEMON HUNTER list (sorry, GK) in two rounds, pretty much. Shot the piss out of the GK's in round 1, then shot and ground pounded their dreads again into near literal non existence, scored every objective with DS troops and reserved cultisist. Game over. Two rounds. Dud didn't even bother with round 3. No point. It would have just been humiliating for no reason. The opponent before that was TauDar. Another mess.

Respect to the Flying FMC's. That's my take.

I'm just glad Tau or Eldar didn't win.

 poppa G wrote:
I'm just glad Tau or Eldar didn't win.

If they deserved to, they would have.

To be fair, KP's favors monsters that fly so much that...really... It's hard to beat them at that game.

 poppa G wrote:
I'm just glad Tau or Eldar didn't win.

Tau don't win GTs at all anymore. Just totally outclassed by Eldar and Deathstar 40k. Tau haven't won anything of note since Nova. It's all Eldar, Space Marines and Daemons now.

Anybody complains about Flying Circus should take it for a spin themselves to see how hard it is to play. It is most certainly not point and click like many of the armies out there (*Tau, cough, Eldar, cough, Centurionstar*).
It is obviously a very strong setup, but I have found it to be by far the hardest army to play. One bad move and your 300+ point became a pink mist.
People always complain when they shoot tons of things at a FMC and don't kill it, but I can never seem to get the point across that IT'S A 350 POINT CHARACTER IT SHOULD BE HARD TO KILL.

 Dakkamite wrote:
How do you kill the FMC with Orks btw?

I shoot at them with the weakest shots to the strongest: Shoota Boyz, mounted Big Shootas, Dakkagunz, Lootas. With multiple units of each, the FMC usually fails the grounding test before the high Strength weapons get to fire at full BS. 2 over 1 is still twice as many hits.

If the FMC was in any position to do anything during their turn or trying to do anything on their next turn, it is pretty easy to get enough Ork units into range: Shoota Boyz mounted in a RPJ BW have a 31" range, mounted Big Shootas have 49" range, Dakkagunz on Warbikes have 30" range, and Lootas have 48".