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I've been looking at getting back into 40k with my favorite race, the Space Marines. Been wanting to really focus on the shooty aspect of them (mainly Sternguard and Tact squads), but I have a few questions that can hopefully be answered!

1. How the hell do I set up my HQ in a shooty SM army? I don't know what to throw on him. Maybe Primarch's Wrath? Storm Bolter?

2. Tact Squads. Do I go Plasma and ML? Or the good old fashioned Flamer and ML?

3. Razorbacks or Rhinos for the tact squads?

4. How to load out Sternguard? Have them with Plasma/Melta to get rid of tanks and TEQ/MEQ?

5. Dreadnoughts. I love them. Would the still work in a list like this? (even with a pod for positioning?)

6. Chapter Tactics? Which one? Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, Iron Hands?

Storm bolter is unfortunately not that impressive. Go with Primarch's Wrath.

Plasma is generally better than flamers.

Melta tends to be preferred on Sternguard since they can drop-pod in very close.

Dreadnoughts are generally percieved as sub-par this edition. You can mitigate this somewhat by taking two Autocannons but most will recommend other units.

I normally play Imperial Fists, with a mix of shooty and assault equipped units, but here's my two penny's worth:

1. Go for a support HQ like a librarian or Master of the forge with Conversion Beamer. Alternatively you could take a combatty HQ with storm bolter (like Pedro) for the inevitable charge that your shooty units are going to face.
2. I like pure plasma gun so they can re-deploy easily.
3. Shooty army? Do you really need transports? I'd go with the razorback with Las/Plas load out if you're taking them.
4. Drop pod them in, cheap with minimal extras and use them to destroy any infantry unit, either through ap3, 2+ poison or volume of saves. This is a unit I never leave home without!
5. A Mortis dread with autocannons can tear apart light vehicles and go a long way to taking out monstrous creatures. A Mortis Contemptor will also help against anti air.

Hope there's something you can use in all of that!

1. Your characters are generally strong in mellee. If you want a shooty one, i'd rather go with a librarian for psy-support or even master of the forge with a beamer. But librarians are truly awesome and adaptive to any situation.

2. For tactical squads, generally plazma+combi-plazma on a sarge is better. If you divide a squad in 2, than the heavy weapon option is usually better as plazma cannon or lazcannon. Missile launchers are not worth it now.

3. Both rhinos and razorbacks are not bad depending on what you want to get. If you don't combat squad, rhino all the way.

4. Drop pod and combat squad. Sometimes it's a good idea to take a heavy flamer on one half and 4-5 combi-meltas/plasmas on the other. Just in case you meet someone in transports, melta part opens a can and flamer part burns the insides. Just 1 of the uses, there are dozens of them - you won't get a certain answer what's best.

5. Dreads still work from time to time. Regular dreads as long-ranged support are mediocre but not bad in general. The thing you might want is an ironclad in a droppod. Either with 2 heavy flamers or melta + heavy flamer. Another option are mortis dreads if your meta allows them. Very powerful.

6. Up to you. Take whoever you like fluffwise.

You may want to look at Salamanders, the answers to your questions become obvious.

 koooaei wrote:
Missile launchers are not worth it now.

I am curious as to why this is. What has changed about them or about the game that makes them less worth it than they used to be?

 Pak40. wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Missile launchers are not worth it now.

I am curious as to why this is. What has changed about them or about the game that makes them less worth it than they used to be?

It's because they have two types of ammo that both suck at their job. Krak missiles, due to AP3, are glorified HP scrubbers, but with only a ROF of 1. Awful. Their only real niche is doubling out T4. Which isn't worth it.

Frag missiles use the small template (bad start) and have a horrible profile of S4 AP 6, allowing even guardsmen their armor save.

And flakk costs an extra surcharge and is quite poor at S7 AP4.

People are going to pour in here and go on about "versatility" and "it work in my meta!", but those people are wrong. The ML is a dumpster fire in 6th ed, and you should avoid it at all costs. It's not even really that good for SW anymore, and they can spam them cheaply. Good lists just don't care.

1. Ranged HQs don't exist for mobile SM armies. Take a librarian or a CC HQ.

2. Special weapon and combi-weapon, leave the heavies at home unless combat squadding. In that case, leave the heavy in your backfield for objective squatting and give them Lascannons. Specials should be melta or plasma, combi can be any of the three.

3. Drop pods. But if you insist on driving or are not alpha strike strong, Rhinos. Razorbacks are for sitting back behind buffed terrain or aegis lines. And aren't even very good at that.

4. Combi-meltas. Sternguard can kill anything but a tank with their stock loadout.

5. Ironclad Dreadnoughts in drop pods. Stick with the Dreadnought CC weapon and Seismic hammer, melta/HF or HF/HF.

6.Choose this before you make your army. It decides how your army is built. Competitively, White Scars and Iron Hands at the top with Gravgun bikers and Chapter Master VonPunchington (AA, Bike, SE, Thunderhammer).

That said, tac squads are weaker than bikers. Dreadnoughts should never be taken alone and if you can't get two in the same place, don't place them. They will die. Your HQ will be an army tax unless he is Khan, Tigurius, Vulkan, or a kitted Chapter Master. Sternguard can come out of a pod taken 10 strong with 2 HF and 4 Combi-Meltas for an OBSCENELY expensive combat-squad of murder. Bust a tank, roast the inside. The odds of them making their points back, however, are slim. But they will murder something. Ultimately, however, you should choose a Chapter Tactic and an army strategy before selecting units.

Caveat, Mr Obsidiankatana: no one hates tac squads more than I. HOWEVER, bikes are actually a durability liability against S6/7 fire with poor AP, since they are being wounded nearly as often as tacs, but cost 50% more. That is a flaw in the biker paradigm that the OP should know about.

Bikers, are however, much more killy and maneuverable. And probably still better in most cases. But S6/7 is so common that it is something to think about.

Agreed, they die all the same to Str 7 (being marginally more survivable against Str 6), but as you said, the increase in damage output and maneuverability is a trade I will always make. That, and the inherent protection they gain against low-AP weapons courtesy of jink saves plus the boost to CC (that they should admittedly almost never be in) visa-vi HoW.

It boils down to: would you pay 7pts more for a tac marine if he gained +1T, double movement, HoW, Relentless, 2 Specials per squad over special/heavy, jink, and his boltgun became TL. I'd pay it all day.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Agreed, they die all the same to Str 7 (being marginally more survivable against Str 6), but as you said, the increase in damage output and maneuverability is a trade I will always make. That, and the inherent protection they gain against low-AP weapons courtesy of jink saves plus the boost to CC (that they should admittedly almost never be in) visa-vi HoW.

It boils down to: would you pay 7pts more for a tac marine if he gained +1T, double movement, HoW, Relentless, 2 Specials per squad over special/heavy, jink, and his boltgun became TL. I'd pay it all day.

I just say this, because I've had this problem with my "counts-as IH" BA lists. Eldar just don't give a feth. I'm so sick of Eldar.

Less a problem with SM, more a problem with Eldar imo.

I think your more sick of people abusing eldar than actual eldar. Nothing in the game is balanced, so if people decide to be dicks they can be, so just play with people who want to have fun. Helldrakes and tau can beat eldar, eldar beat most other armies, ect...

On topic: Space marine can be shooty or assault but are middle of the road for both. They are cheaper grey knights and the tactic is similar. Shoot to weaken than assault. Drop pod armies are always good, and now we can run a tank like wall just like guard so their are ways, but if you just focus on one area you won't be able to bring the full force of the marine down on your enemy.

Tactic is far from the same. Shoot to weaken, then keep shooting. They don't all carry force weapons and psychic powers to boost CC ability. Even the dedicated C:SM assault units struggle in assaults.

Another thing to clear up! This isn't a list to go into Tournaments really, more of a fun list to make just as a side project. Something thats fun to play, but can still win games.

@Seb - I already have a force of Salamanders, but I want to go more med/long range tactics

@Obsidiankatana and @Martel732 - Never liked Bikes, and I never will. I can see the appeal of bikes, but I honestly never enjoyed running them. Call me old fashion, but I love my Tact Squads.

@Martel732 - But isn't a Lascannon really expensive for what it does/will do? Missile Launcher is cheaper, sure Ap 3 is eh, but at least it can put a dent in Vehicles. (Plus, it comes in the box.) Seems like I'd rather combat squad a unit, leave the heavy weapon and his combat squad with a Razorback with TL Lascannons.
And is the HB an option? I don't really see it as a bad weapon. Nice range, ignores GEQ armor, nice ROF.

@Hereticdave - Well bolters can't reach everywhere. Better than footslogging marines who will most definitely die.

Plus, Librarians don't really seem reliable at all. Rather kit out a Captain with Primarch's Wrath, PW, Art. Armor, let him hang with the Sternguard or a Tact Squad. Or go with a MOTF


ANOTHER QUESTION!:

Devastators? Whats the opinion on them?

Every battle I've faced bare bones Sterngard is terrifying. That AP 3 shot or Hellfire is devastating. So i say run them bare bones.

As a continued thought, I read more up on heavy weapons as to help myself understand them. Holy crap you guys were right. 10 points more for the lascannon is worth.

But, I think I might just have a plasma gun and combi plasma in my tact squads.

The Librarian can be worthwhile if you are open to the FW Chapter Tactics, Mantis Warriors lets you have Divination on your Librarian, which means Prescience.

Alternatively, if you want to stick with the book ones, you could go with Ultramarines which lets you get Tigirius, who also has access to Divination, and two of the Chapter Tactics lend themselves well to shooting armies.

Regular Devastators are meh, Centurion Devastators are decent (and move to awesome if you want to death star it by getting a Chapter Master with Shield Eternal and somebody who can give them Prescience).

If you want to make a shooty captain, then a terminator captain with primarches wrath might be a good idea too. At least for fun!

The other issue is that lascannons can engage hard targets at a long range, and can kill things that tactical marines really can't. Everything that is weak to a frag missile can also be killed by bolters, and even better by ignore cover Sternguard bolters.

"Devastators? Whats the opinion on them? "

Bad, because of the weapons of the current meta game. I'm not 100% certain about C:SM, but they are the worst heavy choice in C:BA. They are likely pretty far down the list.

@Tiger9gamer - I gotta make sure he can hang with a squad too though. I guess he can fit in a DP with the Sternguard.
@Martel732 - I've heard Lascannon Devs can be good, but thats a lot of money and points I'm not willing to invest. I will agree on your points with the lascannon.
@nobody - Really don't wanna buy Centurions (too spendy for three models IMO), I've thought of Libs, but I wanna stay to the main book and start out small. Tigiurius might be too much for 1000pts.

Alright, wrote a list last night and looked it over this morning. Either going Iron Hands or Ultramarines tactics on this army, but still haven't decided. Also, Captain might be removed for a MOTF, depends on how the rest of the list works. Still deciding on my load out for my Sternguard too, cause either they'll be infantry removal or tank removal. I just haven't decided on what I need more in this list.

I've also considered if I go Iron Hands, that I'll get Ironclads in DP's cause I have heard that Iron Hands Ironclads are very hard to break, especially in numbers of 3 or more.

HQ:
Captain w/ Power Fist, Storm Shield, Artificer Armor ... 150

Troops:
Tactical Squad (10 strong) w/ Combi Plasma, Plasma Gun, and Rhino... 200

Tactical Squad (10 Strong) w/ Combi Plasma, Plasma Gun, and Rhino ... 200

Elites:

Sternguard Vets (5 Strong) w/ either 3 Combi Meltas, or 2 Combi Flamers and a heavy Flamer, Drop Pod ... 185

Fast Attack:

Stormtalon Gunship w/ Skyhammer Missile launcher ... 125

Stormtalon Gunship w/ Skyhammer Missile Launcher ... 125

Total: 995

I'd keep the sternguard barebones and add another man to the unit for AI purposes, or use a Command Squad for AT purposes (unlocked via Captain 5 meltas in a pod is usually a dead tank).

So if I kept them barebones would that mean they could still take on infantry and problems at the beginning of the game? What would their role become?

If you are going the rout of Iron Hands, then definatly take a master of the forge. That servo-harness has a flamer and an 18" range plasma pistol, and you can either shoot both of those or one and a normal weapon. He has the potential to shoot 3 plasma shots if he also takes a combi plasma. same thing with the flamer!

I might pick one up sometime too =D that sounds awesome.

 Demdiddydizzy wrote:
So if I kept them barebones would that mean they could still take on infantry and problems at the beginning of the game? What would their role become?

Barebones, they kill infantry. Be it 4+ sv in cover, 3+ save in the open, high toughness, whatever.

3. Both rhinos and razorbacks are not bad depending on what you want to get. If you don't combat squad, rhino all the way.

You can still put 2 combat squaded units into one rhino.

Some notes about the a devastator squads and razorbacks, if you give your devastator squad 3 heavy weapons and one more marine, you got 3 wounds to soak up before you start loosing heavy weapons. Also a squad of 6 marines fit perfectly in a razorback.
Devastator makes their points back in almost all if my games (either PC or LC). If each squad has a razorback with twin-linked LC, it is awesome anti-tank/elite fire power.

I do run a gunline army myself, but with DA (dakka banner giving bolters 4 shots). With that i also field 2 dreads and a assault squad in drop pods, the idea to block the way of the enemy and/or screwing up my opponents strategy (hopefully) enough to let me what I want.
A fair warning thou, be prepared to have your dreads shot up fairly fast, don't count on them taking out anything or winning you the game. Also, always bring at least 3 drop pods, the reason is 2/3 of your drop pods are launched at the first round, and you need 2 dreads to show up turn 1 for a chance of surviving to the next round.

If you do choose to go for a custom chapter (non vanilla Ultramarines, Iron Fists, Imperial Fists etc) you can more easily switch between playing a Dark Angel or Vanilla Marine successor chapter since they do share the bulk of the units (That is what I tend to do once I get tired of DA).

What's better overall for pod or rhino Tacs, plasma &combi plasma or melta &combi melta?

Being limited to two guns only doesn't make me feel secure in either option.

 minigun762 wrote:
What's better overall for pod or rhino Tacs, plasma &combi plasma or melta &combi melta?

Being limited to two guns only doesn't make me feel secure in either option.

If you run a gunline army, the plasma will synergize better with the boltguns (having the same range). Melta's are very short ranged and better equipped on units in drop pods landing close/behind enemy lines.

No real good answer. The guns are meant for different things. Plug gaps in your lists with your tac squad's special weapons.

If I HAD to choose, I'd say plasma, because Tac squads want to shoot at infantry generally and not tanks.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
No real good answer. The guns are meant for different things. Plug gaps in your lists with your tac squad's special weapons.

If I HAD to choose, I'd say plasma, because Tac squads want to shoot at infantry generally and not tanks.

I get the no clear answer, why I bounce back and forth on it.
At the end of the day, I think I agree on plasma too, because it pairs better with the bolters but mostly because there are better alternatives for cheap, fast, suicide melta like dual MM Speeders.

On another point, is there value in the Razorback for a backfield fire support unit?