Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

How do you determine if a model gets a cover save (for 25% obscured) against a shot from a vehicle?

1. do you use the los/firing arc of the specific weapon? IE hull mounted 45 degrees horizontal/vertical arc?
2. would you use los of the vehicle in general? Meaning if ANY part of the vehicle can see more than 75% of the model then no cover save is given.

Range and LOS for vehicle firing is always drawn from the barrel of the weapon. after that, it's up to you to eyeball it. TLOS...

Use the barrel of the weapon, just as you do to determine if you have LOS to the target in the first place.

Is the target model 25% obscured from the barrel of the weapon being fired? Then it gets cover.

I recommend working on a firing arc on the X axis and assume elevation on the Y axis is a given.

In short = height is ignored (Y axis)
X axis uses the firing arc of the weapon itself

on the X axis, look at the % of the model hidden using a rough estimate using your vision.

To see if the model can be targeted, I find a laser pen very useful for drawing a direct line of fire.


Perhaps that's all confusing, made sense in my head at the time of typing ^^

Wulfmar,
It is a little bit of a nit-pick, I personally believe that it doesn't matter to determine the cover save value, but I feel the need to bring it up. There is a Restriction that prevents any Weapon from firing at a target that is at more then a 45 degree vertical incline, using the same format as Hull Weapons to suggest this is 22.5 up or down. The existence of this rule makes it a bit difficult to throw the Y axis out completely, if the model lies outside of this fire arc then it is impossible for it to be shot at in the first place.

JinxDragon wrote:
Wulfmar,
There is a Restriction that prevents any Weapon from 'tilting' more then 45 degree vertically, using the same format as Hull Weapons to suggest this is 22.5 up or down.

Indeed you're correct - Just looked it up in the BRB

RAW: .... Players should assume that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings. In the rare cases when it matters, assume that guns can swivel vertically up to 45 degrees, even if the barrel on the model itself cannot physically do that! Additionally, assume all hull-mounted weapons can swivel horizontally up to 45 degrees''

It does raise an interesting thought experiment:
If the Weapon can not swivel to completely cover the model, but can draw the initial Line of Sight to some point on said model, does it take the swivel restriction in account when it comes to calculating cover saves?

I, personally, lean towards 'the restriction is irrelevant, just look down the barrel and calculate from there' but the poor quality of the sentence makes it hard to know for sure.

Can the gun draw LoS to more than 75% of the model?

No - because the swivel restricts it. So cover is granted.

Also remember that "If the target unit is in cover from only some of the Vehicle's Weapons, then work out the target's cover saves exactly as if each firing weapon on the vehicle was a separate firing unit." (Page 72)

JinxDragon wrote:
Wulfmar,
It is a little bit of a nit-pick, I personally believe that it doesn't matter to determine the cover save value, but I feel the need to bring it up. There is a Restriction that prevents any Weapon from firing at a target that is at more then a 45 degree vertical incline, using the same format as Hull Weapons to suggest this is 22.5 up or down. The existence of this rule makes it a bit difficult to throw the Y axis out completely, if the model lies outside of this fire arc then it is impossible for it to be shot at in the first place.

i read the rule as swivel 45 degrees each way creating a 90 degree firing arc from hull mounted weapons. Is it really only a 45 degree arc, 22.5 degrees each direction?

redleader187 wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
Wulfmar,
It is a little bit of a nit-pick, I personally believe that it doesn't matter to determine the cover save value, but I feel the need to bring it up. There is a Restriction that prevents any Weapon from firing at a target that is at more then a 45 degree vertical incline, using the same format as Hull Weapons to suggest this is 22.5 up or down. The existence of this rule makes it a bit difficult to throw the Y axis out completely, if the model lies outside of this fire arc then it is impossible for it to be shot at in the first place.

i read the rule at swivel 45 degrees each way creating a 90 degree firing arc from hull mounted weapons. Is it really only a 45 degree arc, 22.5 degrees each direction?

Personally I would take it as 45 degrees up, rather than 22.5. The only time the 22.5 Degrees down would be used would be if there was a Gretchin right next to the gun.

I suppose as long as both players agree on the rules used for the match, it doesn't really matter a great deal.

 Wulfmar wrote:

redleader187 wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
Wulfmar,
It is a little bit of a nit-pick, I personally believe that it doesn't matter to determine the cover save value, but I feel the need to bring it up. There is a Restriction that prevents any Weapon from firing at a target that is at more then a 45 degree vertical incline, using the same format as Hull Weapons to suggest this is 22.5 up or down. The existence of this rule makes it a bit difficult to throw the Y axis out completely, if the model lies outside of this fire arc then it is impossible for it to be shot at in the first place.

i read the rule at swivel 45 degrees each way creating a 90 degree firing arc from hull mounted weapons. Is it really only a 45 degree arc, 22.5 degrees each direction?

Personally I would take it as 45 degrees up, rather than 22.5. The only time the 22.5 Degrees down would be used would be if there was a Gretchin right next to the gun.

I suppose as long as both players agree on the rules used for the match, it doesn't really matter a great deal.

I was more concerned with the horizontal firing arc more than anything. 45 degree overall firing arc seems pretty small. We have just been playing that any vehicle can fire at anything on the vertical 180 degree axis to keep things simple.

To be fair, the guys and gals I play with tend to say ''fudge it, if it's in front you can shoot it'', after a few pints you stop caring about the degrees and reckon if it's close enough, it'll do.

A template may be the answer to issues though, such as this one:



Either way, +45' / -45' seems like a kinder firing arc to use

If it was 22.5' you would need to be about 2ft away to reach the second floor of a building, at which point you're probably out of range. (Please bear in mind this is a rough estimate comment and I haven't bothered to work out the actual specific distances using trigonometry)

If someone does work it out, brownies for you

rigeld2 wrote:
Can the gun draw LoS to more than 75% of the model?

No - because the swivel restricts it. So cover is granted.

Is more than 25% of the model obscured? No. No cover save.

Which is good, because if you decided you DID get a cover save, you immediately hit another impasse: without any intervening terrain or models, there's no actual save value to assign, anyway.

Pyrian wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Can the gun draw LoS to more than 75% of the model?

No - because the swivel restricts it. So cover is granted.

Is more than 25% of the model obscured? No. No cover save.

Which is good, because if you decided you DID get a cover save, you immediately hit another impasse: without any intervening terrain or models, there's no actual save value to assign, anyway.

I believe you get a cover save no matter what if you are 25% obscured.

Pyrian wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Can the gun draw LoS to more than 75% of the model?

No - because the swivel restricts it. So cover is granted.

Is more than 25% of the model obscured? No. No cover save.

Which is good, because if you decided you DID get a cover save, you immediately hit another impasse: without any intervening terrain or models, there's no actual save value to assign, anyway.

If you can't draw LoS to the entire model, it's be definition obscured I'm pretty sure.

They do raise a good question Regeld2,
What is the Cover Save granted in this situation?

I think his questions is:

If the gun can only draw LoS to 50% of the model because of the restricted swivel of the gun... what is the cover save?

Good question. Doesn't look like it's covered specifically, but based on other things I'd go with a 5+. Unfortunately cover saves are semi-arbitrary.

 Wulfmar wrote:
To be fair, the guys and gals I play with tend to say ''fudge it, if it's in front you can shoot it'', after a few pints you stop caring about the degrees and reckon if it's close enough, it'll do.

I'd like to play with you. Save me getting annoyed at small children, when i can't be arsed to argue that they're wrong.