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So yeah.. scans are all over the interwebs and it is confirmed - veterans can have 3 special weapons and for 5 more points than the price of 5 scions you can have 10 vets with 4+ thanks to the grenadier doctrine.

Let's see - veterans aren't limited to the crappy Taurox Prime transport only - they can take superior Chimera for much less or cheaper regular Taurox. Veterans can take 3 specials and have options to take heavies. They're still BS4.

Now the Scions.. the elitest elite of the elite. 5 guys at 70pts, 4+ save, only 2 special weapons, no heavies whatsoever. They gain hotshot lasguns, move through cover and deep strike at 12pts per one dude. With S3 AP3 gun.

I love the Scion models and I am surely going to try making them work one way or another, but I can't help the feeling that they're getting screwed over. Hell, everyone who bought them not just for the looks is somewhat screwed. Of course you can say that they're clearly a minicodex made with allies in mind (most notably the valkyrie formation), but it got kinda ridiculous now given the fact that the formation might've just as well been a dataslate and the whole rest of the codex is utterly sub-par to anything that the Astra Militarum can throw on the table.

Only good thing that comes to my mind is the 2 melta 5 man deepstriking suicide squad for 90pts, but one has a low chance to blow a tank up in one turn(and it won't survive for another shot) and two cost 180pts, for which Imperial Guard can just as well grab something even better at blowing them up.

What do you guys think? Am I missing something? It seems that everyone who bought Scion kits will sooner or later give them the bereted heads and use them as 4+ veterans in carapace armour as they're much cheaper and can take third special weapon. Either that or keep them just for the 1200pt valkyrie formation outside the FOC.

Scions can only take the Taurox Prime in the MT codex.
They can take Chimeras as well in astra, and can be fielded in platoons as well.

Yepp. I covered that they have ap3 on their hotshots, but I was mostly comparing Vets with the Militarum Tempestus Scions, not the ones from IG codex as I was baffled by the lack of reason behind making Tempestus a separate army while making their troops worse than the Astra Militarum's veteran mooks.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Scions can only take the Taurox Prime in the MT codex.
They can take Chimeras as well in astra.

Indeed they can.

There's also the difference of Scions in the MT Codex are able to get unique Orders that grant their Shooting attacks the Preferred Enemy special rule, another can twin-link their weapons for a single shooting attack, another can give all the hot-shot laspistols and hot-shot lasguns in an ordered unit firing a single shot the Sniper and Pinning special rules(but they can't charge in the following Assault phase), and the last order must be resolved against an enemy vehicle or Monstrous Creature the entire unit fires as Rending.

As far as I'm aware, those Orders have no direct equivalent in the AM book and the Tempestor Primes in the AM book only have access to the 'generic' Orders.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Klerych wrote:
Yepp. I covered that they have ap3 on their hotshots, but I was mostly comparing Vets with the Militarum Tempestus Scions, not the ones from IG codex as I was baffled by the lack of reason behind making Tempestus a separate army while making their troops worse than the Astra Militarum's veteran mooks.

Because maybe some people want to field them on their own?
I have 50+ Kasrkin and 3 Valkyries. That's my MT army right there.

Additionally it's worth mentioning that if someone wanted to, they could use the Elites slot for things other than Tempestus Scion Platoons in an Astra Militarum army.

Sure, yes, but those special orders don't really make them any more viable as an army given the fact that new AM orders are either better or just as good. Let's see:

-Fire On My Target ignores cover;
-Bring It Down gives Tank/Monster Hunters;
-FRF SRF gives additional shots on lasguns and hotshots, so it's even better for Scions;
-Take Aim gives precision shots.

Those are just 4 that would work with Scions just as well as their own special orders. That's pretty ridiculous as Astra Militarum does everything just plain better than the elite Militarum Tempestus.

Clearly you've made up your mind and there is no discussion to be had. Have fun!

Well, I'm open to suggestions as I'd personally love to field a Tempestus army, but as it looks right now, even if you want to field them standalone for fluff reasons as I would want to, they're going to be pretty bad and it's even more ridiculous when Vets can do the same but better, just without AP3 and deep strike but at half the price.

Also - I think that your 50+ kasrkin(I envy you, by the way) would work just as well as some swell carapace-wearing veterans.

I'm not trying to convince you to play as regular Guard, I'm asking if anyone can at least give one good codex reason to play them as standalone, rather than just the cool/fluff factor as no matter how cool the army would look/feel, it'll get butchered, slaughtered and smeared all over the table even by the forces that they're supposed to be vastly superior to.

It'd be much better if veterans got nerfed to 2 special weapons and/or BS3, but as it is now, no matter how hard I'll try to make a viable list, regular IG can either do it better or just counter it with their other unit entries.

 Klerych wrote:
Well, I'm open to suggestions as I'd personally love to field a Tempestus army, but as it looks right now, even if you want to field them standalone for fluff reasons as I would want to, they're going to be pretty bad and it's even more ridiculous when Vets can do the same but better, just without AP3 and deep strike but at half the price.

Also - I think that your 50+ kasrkin(I envy you, by the way) would work just as well as some swell carapace-wearing veterans.

I'm not trying to convince you to play as regular Guard, I'm asking if anyone can at least give one good codex reason to play them as standalone, rather than just the cool/fluff factor as no matter how cool the army would look/feel, it'll get butchered, slaughtered and smeared all over the table even by the forces that they're supposed to be vastly superior to.

It'd be much better if veterans got nerfed to 2 special weapons and/or BS3, but as it is now, no matter how hard I'll try to make a viable list, regular IG can either do it better or just counter it with their other unit entries.

You're basing everything on numbers, like everyone else comparing Vets to Scions. 3 is better than 2! 3 is better than 2! Look at how wise I am!

For a start, Vets can't deepstrike, Scions can and if reliability is really a concern you can buy a 55 point Psychic Inquisitor who can buy 3 Servo Skulls for 9 pts, effectively giving you three drop zones.

You have vastly underestimated the Scion orders. Giving rending to every squad member in a squad of 10 is statistically better for killing heavy infantry and TEQ than Vets with plasmas, I'm pretty sure.

Giving sniper is brutal - a Scion Command Squad with Hot Shot Shot Volley Guns with sniper can easily pump out 16 shots resulting in 5~ wounds on a 3+ save or worse MC, probably leaving them with a 5+ inv at best, and the squad only costs 125 points. You just have to be strategic by setting up a firebase around the mid-field and perforating things with 24''.

Same goes for a squad of 10 Scions - 2 plasmas and 8 hotshots rapid firing (not as hard as you think given how popular Augur Arrays and Servo Skulls are going to be with this army) are going to almost single handedly massacre 3/4 of the wounds off MC's under either rending, TL or sniper.

Can you just imagine the hilarity of killing a 250~+ Wraithknight in a turn with a squad of Scions with sniper?

All the Astra Militarum orders can be issued to Scions, so pointing out them as a reason for Vets is a bit silly.

The Taurox Prime is not necessarily a bad vehicle at all- don't plan for it to survive, use it as a cheap, redundant gunboat. The TL Gatling + TL HSVG loadout puts out more fire than a Venom and will probably make back a large portion of its points the first time it fires, which isn't difficult given you have a 12'' movement and can fire both guns at full BS there.

 Mr.Omega wrote:


You have vastly underestimated the Scion orders. Giving rending to every squad member in a squad of 10 is statistically better for killing heavy infantry and TEQ than Vets with plasmas, I'm pretty sure.

Giving sniper is brutal - a Scion Command Squad with Hot Shot Shot Volley Guns with sniper can easily pump out 16 shots resulting in 5~ wounds on a 3+ save or worse MC, probably leaving them with a 5+ inv at best, and the squad only costs 125 points. You just have to be strategic by setting up a firebase around the mid-field and perforating things with 24''.

You do remember that rending order only works against MCs and Vehicles? Also the sniper order allows you to take a single shot per weapon, so.. no volley guns for that unless you want to reduce 16 shots into 4.

There's no need to criticize me for my opinion - as I said, I am comparing Codex: MT to Codex: AM and Astra's superior orders work just as good or better with Astra's Scions, leaving the Codex: MT kinda worse in that field.

And of course I'll be talking about numbers because I can effectively have almost 2 times more vets on the table with 150% the amount of special weapons while still being able to take cheap autocannon Tauroxes or Chimeras and on top of that if I ever feel like it, I could have the same Scions you're talking about, with the same inquisitor mentioned and AM's orders.

Don't get me wrong - I am not bashing the Tempestus Codex out of hate - I bought it before hoping that I could make an extremely fluffy, awesome looking paratrooper commando army with special tasks in mind and I feel kinda cheated(now I know how Dark Angels players felt when C:SM came out) because new IG outclasses my dream stormtrooper army by far with regular veterans. Not to mention their access to tank commander in a Leman Russ Punisher squadron. Of course the Tempestus have their good sides, but they seem to be very sub par with much fewer bodies, less special weapons in squads, very expensive transports that crumble when you look at them funny and no anti-air outside of regular, single lascannon valkyries or allied quad gun aegis line.

Well, maybe I'll change my mind when I see someone actually win using them, but at 240pts for a squad of T3 4+ infantry we're looking at an 'elite' army with 12pts per model clad in wet paper armour. And with abundance of AP4 weapons such as autocannons your force will be severely crippled after one turn of shooting and unless you ally in the Astra or Knights, you won't have any durable unit on the table to give the enemy any trouble.

And of course I'll be talking about numbers because I can effectively have almost 2 times more vets on the table with 150% the amount of special weapons

Except you won't be fielding 2 times more Vets the majority of the time because that sort of list wouldn't be that effective at all.

They're not fulfilling the same role, they're a hammer, not a scalpel because Scions have deep strike. You did not approach it from that angle, you've approached it from a context-less numbers angle where tactics, strategy and capability don't exist and the purpose of the game is to fiddle diddle with your calculators and dice until someone has won. You've completely missed the point, and only reiterated mine, not that I'm trying to seem hostile here.

Sure, AM has plenty of toys you may want to use, and by all means ally with them, but C:MT is not a completely hopeless a primary detachment. I feel the potential in C:MT lies in mass deep striking and the airborne formation, though I understand part of your view in that you may as well just field C:AM Scions, if the precise firepower is what you want. C:MT appeals to people who place more value in the ability to have scoring Scions.

 Klerych wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:


You have vastly underestimated the Scion orders. Giving rending to every squad member in a squad of 10 is statistically better for killing heavy infantry and TEQ than Vets with plasmas, I'm pretty sure.

Giving sniper is brutal - a Scion Command Squad with Hot Shot Shot Volley Guns with sniper can easily pump out 16 shots resulting in 5~ wounds on a 3+ save or worse MC, probably leaving them with a 5+ inv at best, and the squad only costs 125 points. You just have to be strategic by setting up a firebase around the mid-field and perforating things with 24''.

You do remember that rending order only works against MCs and Vehicles? Also the sniper order allows you to take a single shot per weapon, so.. no volley guns for that unless you want to reduce 16 shots into 4.

Actually the sniper order ONLY applies to Hot-shot Laspistols and Hot-shot Lasguns. The specific wording is "When resolving this shooting attack, all hot-shot laspistols and hot-shot lasguns in the ordered unit can only fire a single shot, but have the Sniper and Pinning special rules."

So you couldn't use the volley gun anyway because it's specifically excluded. Just like FRFSRF specifically excludes the volley gun as well.

It's also worth mentioning that Drill Chief(D6 result of 5 for Warlord Traits in the MT book) units within 12" of the Warlord chosen from MT can fire an additional 6" with Hot-shot Laspistols and Hot-shot Lasguns provided they did not move in the preceding Movement phase.

There's no need to criticize me for my opinion - as I said, I am comparing Codex: MT to Codex: AM and Astra's superior orders work just as good or better with Astra's Scions, leaving the Codex: MT kinda worse in that field.

And of course I'll be talking about numbers because I can effectively have almost 2 times more vets on the table with 150% the amount of special weapons while still being able to take cheap autocannon Tauroxes or Chimeras and on top of that if I ever feel like it, I could have the same Scions you're talking about, with the same inquisitor mentioned and AM's orders.

6x Tempestus Scion Squads taken as Troop choices from the MT book.
Each squad gets 2x special weapons.

2x Tempestus Command Squads taken as HQ choices from the MT book.
Can forgo the upgrades(Banner, Vox Caster, Medic) in favor of all four Scions in the TCS toting Special Weapons.

Brings you a total of 20 Special Weapons, all Deep Striking with Move Through Cover.

If you take the "Ground Assault Formation" or just some Taurox Primes as FA, give them the Augur Array which allows you to avoid scatter when Deep Striking within 6" of the unit with the Augur Array.

Personally I'm planning on using my Armoured Sentinels as a "Deep Strike Magnet" for my MT force getting allied into my AM force.

But it is not SM drop pod deep strike . Even with inq everyone uses , the skulls maybe there on turn 1 , but not on turn 2 . full airborn doesn't work , because commisars don't have to be in the transports , so the army has to be split in the the normal and reserv force , which means the commisar waits there for a turn , hoping he won't die and not auto lose you the game . You could take ally to counter that , but then why not just take AM main ?

But the worse thing about scions is that even if they do land and die from interceptors , they are still armed with str 3 weapons and only 2 specials per squad , they will have problems with killing stuff even , if it is in the open

My point with numbers was that when you mass drop your Scions all over the table hoping not to scatter too far, you will most likely find that the enemy has just as many vets with superior weaponry there, while probably being able to drop some more AM scions. Then, after you most likely fail to cripple his army because deepstruck(lol) volley guns shoot only 2 shots per gun as deep strike counts as if it moved, you will inflict some hurt just to meet retaliating fire from all the surviving veterans, their transports and shiny toys such as the Punisher tanks that will butcher your expensive Scions by the dozen.

My point is that your precise firepower is not enough for a crippling alpha strike and you're most likely to not destroy all of your enemy's cool toys that will then fire on your scions who after deep striking will mostly stand out in the open.

For a tactic like that to succeed you'd have to be able to do so much hurt in one turn that you'd cripple the enemy badly, but that doesn't seem too likely with their point costs and all the dice randomness.

That being said, I still hope to see Tempestus work well - as I mentioned, I'd love to play Codex: MT army but I can barely see them succeeding against an army played by a player just as skilled as the MT one.

P.s. - scoring Scions sound pretty good, that's one of the big pros of an MT army but then again wouldn't allied-in formation Scions be scoring as they're troops there too?

Makumba wrote:
But it is not SM drop pod deep strike . Even with inq everyone uses , the skulls maybe there on turn 1 , but not on turn 2 . full airborn doesn't work , because commisars don't have to be in the transports , so the army has to be split in the the normal and reserv force , which means the commisar waits there for a turn , hoping he won't die and not auto lose you the game . You could take ally to counter that , but then why not just take AM main ?

But the worse thing about scions is that even if they do land and die from interceptors , they are still armed with str 3 weapons and only 2 specials per squad , they will have problems with killing stuff even , if it is in the open

If you're referring to the "Airborne Assault" formation, the rules specifically state that all of the Infantry units in this formation begin the game embarked upon their Valkyrie transports and must therefore be placed in Reserve.

Even more, under "Formation Restrictions" it specifially says "The Commissar must join one of the squads in this Formation during deployment".



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Klerych wrote:
My point with numbers was that when you mass drop your Scions all over the table hoping not to scatter too far, you will most likely find that the enemy has just as many vets with superior weaponry there, while probably being able to drop some more AM scions. Then, after you most likely fail to cripple his army because deepstruck(lol) volley guns shoot only 2 shots per gun as deep strike counts as if it moved, you will inflict some hurt just to meet retaliating fire from all the surviving veterans, their transports and shiny toys such as the Punisher tanks that will butcher your expensive Scions by the dozen.

Why are you taking Volley Guns instead of Plasmaguns or Meltaguns?

My point is that your precise firepower is not enough for a crippling alpha strike and you're most likely to not destroy all of your enemy's cool toys that will then fire on your scions who after deep striking will mostly stand out in the open.

For a tactic like that to succeed you'd have to be able to do so much hurt in one turn that you'd cripple the enemy badly, but that doesn't seem too likely with their point costs and all the dice randomness.

If only there were some kind of Augur Array that could be placed onto vehicles and used as a 'beacon' to avoid scatter...

Mentioned Volley Guns as Mr.Omega mentioned taking 4 of them on command squads.

As to Augur Arrays... see, there's the issue with deep strike scions.

To scatter reliably or not scatter at all, you will need skulls or/and Arrays. The problem is that most of the forward skulls will disappear turn 1 while you'll have to be out in the open with your 11/10/10 match box to deploy Scions effectively or hide it behind a corner and DS them onto the table.. but then you won't be able to shoot Taurox' weapons.

It won't survive enough in the open to let your guys DS, it won't shoot if you hide it behind a building. Pretty bad dilemma. Especially that each Array costs you whopping 25 points on already 80pt base transports.

 Klerych wrote:
Mentioned Volley Guns as Mr.Omega mentioned taking 4 of them on command squads.

As to Augur Arrays... see, there's the issue with deep strike scions.

To scatter reliably or not scatter at all, you will need skulls or/and Arrays. The problem is that most of the forward skulls will disappear turn 1 while you'll have to be out in the open with your 11/10/10 match box to deploy Scions effectively or hide it behind a corner and DS them onto the table.. but then you won't be able to shoot Taurox' weapons.

It won't survive enough in the open to let your guys DS, it won't shoot if you hide it behind a building. Pretty bad dilemma. Especially that each Array costs you whopping 25 points on already 80pt base transports.

You seem to play in a world where everything is already black and white.

You can place the skulls strategically to force your opponent to move where you want for a start. Place them near board edges or awkward places where your opponent will feel irritated trying to reach -if you have to force a 12''/6'' move from your opponent where you want then that's extremely useful, and can be used to move units away from your Scion dropzones at other skulls and near your AATP's.

Augur Array Taurox Primes moving max distance, exploiting flat out to make it 30'' across the board turn 1, and park behind a piece of LOS blocking cover (or at worst 75% blocking cover with possibly even a camonet) or in an area where the enemy has been moved away from because of intercepting the skulls, will be a lot less likely to go bang in such a scenario. You've easily got a potential 9 dropzones, from 6 Servo Skulls and 3 AATP's and you opponent will probably be lucky to neutralize half of them.

Sure, you won't get to fire your Taurox Primes turn 1, but considering I'd outfit the AATP's with TL Gatlings and TL HSVG's anyway for absurd anti-infantry at 24'', where you'd most likely be out of range anyway, that's not really a big deal.

Really, if you think that your opponent is going to be able to spread himself thin by darting all his models to the 3 point servo skulls and shooting down the cheap as chips AATP's all in a turn, completely ignoring everything else you have -say you take a C:AM allied detachment, or backboard/other MechScions for saturation, you're wrong.

I practically recommend the OoTF from C:AM and a home objective unit if you can't fit in a Comms ADL. Grabbing some Vendettas from that book is also a good way to go- hell, there's nothing to say you can't take allied C:AM vets.

Well, my idea was to ally in AM for mech vets and some nice tools like vendettas and russes while trying to keep the Scions for deep strike.

But I still think your vision is flawed - we're talking 80pt transports with 10pt gun and 25pt arrays. That's 115pts per one 11/10/10 box that you'll have to hide and you don't know how will your enemy deploy to begin with.

Are we talking 160pts twin plasma 10 man Scion squads? How many do you expect to field at 1850pts? Care to conjure a quick army list draft?

Remember that you have to deep strike at the start of the turn, so your 30" flat out ends up with your transport hidden. Then on turn two you may deploy them somewhere next to the cover and then jump out from behind it with the Taurox limiting your options for DS to the two sides of the LOS blocking terrain.

My final issue with the idea is same as with most drop pod lists.. how many Scions do you think will come in from the reserves on that particular turn? What if only a few and your only good opportunity for alpha strike will be gone, leaving you with half of your forces in the field and half still waiting? Too few Scions on the table and they'll disappear in clouds of red mist.

I haven't really reviewed the MT codex in detail, but it does seem to me that if you want an "elite" guard army, the smarter thing to do is use the IG codex with lots of Vets and then take a few platoons of ST if you want some of their special abilities than it is to actually use the MT codex.

A whole army of ST just seems like you are burning points. Their abilities are nice, but slightly over priced and if you take a whole army of them they won't have the firepower to actually beat anything.

 Klerych wrote:
Yepp. I covered that they have ap3 on their hotshots, but I was mostly comparing Vets with the Militarum Tempestus Scions, not the ones from IG codex as I was baffled by the lack of reason behind making Tempestus a separate army while making their troops worse than the Astra Militarum's veteran mooks.

It's mainly because GW just apparently doesn't like certain IG units. Stormtroopers, Ogryns, Ratlings, etc have *always* had...uninspiring rules, at least since 3rd edition if not 2nd.

GW also drastically overvalues AP3, Stormtroopers/Scions have the same issues Thousand Sons and Vespids have had for years as well.

They're also units with similar, but distinct uses. Scions are way better heavy infantry hunters than vets, since their Hot Shot lasguns are AP3 and will drop a couple Marines if they're running with plasma especially. If I just wanted meltas though, vets are the better option.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Klerych wrote:
Yepp. I covered that they have ap3 on their hotshots, but I was mostly comparing Vets with the Militarum Tempestus Scions, not the ones from IG codex as I was baffled by the lack of reason behind making Tempestus a separate army while making their troops worse than the Astra Militarum's veteran mooks.

It's mainly because GW just apparently doesn't like certain IG units. Stormtroopers, Ogryns, Ratlings, etc have *always* had...uninspiring rules, at least since 3rd edition if not 2nd.

GW also drastically overvalues AP3, Stormtroopers/Scions have the same issues Thousand Sons and Vespids have had for years as well.

Yeah, I think they only play games with Space Marines. Although the community does the same thing, so often when talking about the effectiveness of a weapon or unit we use the measure of "how many space marines would it kill" and I think some weapons are under rated by the community because of that.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
...talking about the effectiveness of a weapon or unit we use the measure of "how many space marines would it kill"...

At S3? Not that many anyway.

 Klerych wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
...talking about the effectiveness of a weapon or unit we use the measure of "how many space marines would it kill"...

At S3? Not that many anyway.

Then give them some MT orders:

Twin linked? Extra hits are the same as better strength.

Preferred enemy? Better than S4 against marines.

Sniper and pinning? Effectively S4 at 9-18". Even better against bikers or nurgle.

 Trickstick wrote:

Twin linked? Extra hits are the same as better strength.

Preferred enemy? Better than S4 against marines.

Actually, Bs4 S4 AP3 is 10% better than Bs4 S3 AP3 with Preferred Enemy and 12% better than Bs4 S3 AP3 Twin Linked against marines (as in, you'll kill 10% and 12% more marines).

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

Twin linked? Extra hits are the same as better strength.

Preferred enemy? Better than S4 against marines.

Actually, Bs4 S4 AP3 is 10% better than Bs4 S3 AP3 with Preferred Enemy and 12% better than Bs4 S3 AP3 Twin Linked against marines (as in, you'll kill 10% and 12% more marines).

Oops, I knew I should have done the maths before assuming. Ah well, my point was that is is easy to buff them up to be more effective against T4.

Yeah, the difference between S3 and S4 is quite large, against T3 enemies you gain 33% more wounds, against T4 enemies you're gaining 50% more wounds and against T5 enemies you're gaining 100% more wounds. S4 to S5 isn't as significant because you only gain 25%, 33% and 50% more wounds against T3/4/5 enemies. The buffs help though, the sniper order sounds good.

 Trickstick wrote:
Oops, I knew I should have done the maths before assuming. Ah well, my point was that is is easy to buff them up to be more effective against T4.

No matter how hard we try to make them very viable, they're mediocre at best thanks to their ludicrous point cost. Issue at hand is that you're not very likely to field, not even mentioning dropping enough Scions on the table on your desired turn and any smaller amount will be unable to do a proper alpha strike. After dealing some minor-medium damage to enemy forces you'll be left in the open. You know what happens when s3 t3 models get charged. You know what happens when they stand in front of a Tau gunline for just one turn. You know what shuriken catapults and Serpents will do to them. You know what will splinter rifles do with them. Let alone Leman Russ Punishers or even regular Battle Cannons. Hell, any surviving Chimera with heavy flamer and multilaser will butcher them.

But good luck. If you prove me wrong, I'll be really happy. Until then I'll be using my Scions as carapace-wearing vets.

I suppose it depends on terrain. I don't play on tables where an entire gunline can target one thing very easily. Deep striking in to area terrain near a target, or where only some of the enemy can see you, works quite well. I used to use stormtroopers as a scalpel, cut the enemy in the right place so that they react a certain way and then pound them with the rest of my army in a different way to break their cohesion. The only thing I am sad about is the loss of the deepstrike reroll, I used to be able to pull off crazy drops thanks to that. With the addition of that sniper order, I don't have to drop as close now. Also, with the move through cover, I can drop in terrain.

I used to love the old Stormtroopers, and these ones just seem even better. Not to mention that they score, which is super awesome.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Klerych wrote:
Yepp. I covered that they have ap3 on their hotshots, but I was mostly comparing Vets with the Militarum Tempestus Scions, not the ones from IG codex as I was baffled by the lack of reason behind making Tempestus a separate army while making their troops worse than the Astra Militarum's veteran mooks.

It's mainly because GW just apparently doesn't like certain IG units. Stormtroopers, Ogryns, Ratlings, etc have *always* had...uninspiring rules, at least since 3rd edition if not 2nd.

I like the idea of ten-point sneaky snipers that can run after shooting without being ordered to do so...sure, they've got crap for leadership and toughness, but I think Ratlings definitely have a number of new options with that rule.