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The computer players really seem to get mad at me for killing aliens. Tell the aliens to stop sending endless waves of fury after my workers and colonists, and I'll stop attacking them, people.

The only one who likes me is Polystralia, and that doesn't mean anything.

I have to say, in my first game of BE there was considerably less warfare than in any of my Civ V games. I only had two major conflicts, and one of those was a campaign for taming the local wildlife, where four squads of PAC Marines purged alien nests from the vicinity of my border, supported by a modded buggy with an improvised missile launcher my colonists hastily cobbled together from various spare parts. The second war was much later, and one of my own choosing, subjugating my Khavitian neighbours in order to prevent them from completing their Emancipation victory. I could have gone on without waging war against a single human faction (especially as my relationship with the KP was amicable), but of course I didn't want to lose when there was a military option to prevent it. And so I entered into an alliance with Franco-Iberia and sent a regiment of laser-armed PAC troopers as well as a trio of LEV-tanks, brand new off the assembly lines, across the border on a mission to secure both the enemy capital as well as to seize and destroy the Emancipation Gate. It's a bit sad that I had to turn on a neighbour who, for so long, had been a good trade partner, but lately they've been criticising my Purity affinity anyways, as the KP went for Supremacy.

Anyways, if you disliked the martial conflict in previous incarnations of Civ, then I think BE should work for you.
What exactly did you do to piss the Franco-Iberians off? Surely they can't condemn you "just like that", for nothing? Did you have no allies?

And yeah, the game should definitely give you a reason for losing. Possibly a bug? I can't believe they just skipped on that part ...

Melissia wrote:Image link is broken, Lynata.

Dammit. Can you open the image in a separate tab and refresh your cache?
It should work, but I noticed that perhaps the host isn't very reliable ... for some inexplicable reason, some people need to reload an image from time to time to have it show up. :(

toasteroven wrote:The computer players really seem to get mad at me for killing aliens. Tell the aliens to stop sending endless waves of fury after my workers and colonists, and I'll stop attacking them, people.

Heh - have you tried letting them "cool down" a bit instead of killing them? I've found that just sending troops with my workers helps a lot - if the aliens are not too stirred up.

 Lynata wrote:

What exactly did you do to piss the Franco-Iberians off? Surely they can't condemn you "just like that", for nothing? Did you have no allies?

If this Civ game is like previous ones, there should be a diplomatic overview window you can click on, that will give the numerous reasons why a specific faction is denouncing you. Ive found with Civ V, once a faction, like England denounces me once, they will continue to denounce as often as possible until I crush them like vermin and wipe them from the map.

 Lynata wrote:
Anyways, if you disliked the martial conflict in previous incarnations of Civ, then I think BE should work for you.
What exactly did you do to piss the Franco-Iberians off? Surely they can't condemn you "just like that", for nothing? Did you have no allies?

And yeah, the game should definitely give you a reason for losing. Possibly a bug? I can't believe they just skipped on that part ...

I not wholly averse to a military solution, but I know there are a lot more options in the game I never seen to be able to explore.

No idea - I will look to see if there is a reason, as you posted, next time I play and it happens.

I assume that was a bug, yes. I've run into a few minor ones so far - sometimes it will have several windows open at the same time and none are responsive, but hitting escape a few times fixes that.

 toasteroven wrote:
The computer players really seem to get mad at me for killing aliens. Tell the aliens to stop sending endless waves of fury after my workers and colonists, and I'll stop attacking them, people.

The only one who likes me is Polystralia, and that doesn't mean anything.

I had one of my neighbors complain because I was removing Miasma.

Supposedly the aliens tend to lash out at all nearby colonists when they get riled up. Or at least that's what I read before the game was released. I'm not sure how that interacts with the "aliens get unangry at you faster" ability on the Harmony Affinity track. But if true, it might explain why nearby CPU players get annoyed when you clean up the local wildlife. It doesn't explain why CPU players on the other side of the planet get touchy about it, though.

Eumerin wrote:

 toasteroven wrote:
The computer players really seem to get mad at me for killing aliens. Tell the aliens to stop sending endless waves of fury after my workers and colonists, and I'll stop attacking them, people.

The only one who likes me is Polystralia, and that doesn't mean anything.

I had one of my neighbors complain because I was removing Miasma.

Supposedly the aliens tend to lash out at all nearby colonists when they get riled up. Or at least that's what I read before the game was released. I'm not sure how that interacts with the "aliens get unangry at you faster" ability on the Harmony Affinity track. But if true, it might explain why nearby CPU players get annoyed when you clean up the local wildlife. It doesn't explain why CPU players on the other side of the planet get touchy about it, though.

To be fair, it's an issue I think Civ games have almost always had... In a game of Civ V, i wiped out Caesar of Rome before everyone had met him, and someone was pissed/denounced me later for warmongering (even though, aside from the disagreement with Rome, I hadn't attacked anyone)

I think mine also happened because I set the aliens to "raging horde", or whatever it's called in this game. So I was under attack from pretty much the very start. Had to carve my way through swarms of aliens just to be able to found a second city. Which was all a hell of lot of fun, mind you. But I did have to wonder if the computer players weren't facing similar conditions.

Eumerin wrote:I had one of my neighbors complain because I was removing Miasma.
Supposedly the aliens tend to lash out at all nearby colonists when they get riled up. Or at least that's what I read before the game was released. I'm not sure how that interacts with the "aliens get unangry at you faster" ability on the Harmony Affinity track. But if true, it might explain why nearby CPU players get annoyed when you clean up the local wildlife. It doesn't explain why CPU players on the other side of the planet get touchy about it, though.

Harmony affinity perhaps? I think that one pretty much turns entire factions into Greenpeace.

"That colony is destroying the indigenous life and messing with the environment! Don't they realise they are doing the same thing that led to the destruction of Earth?!"

I could see how leaders who are fixated on coexistence with the planet as-is would dislike a colony that kills off the local wildlife and sets up stinky factories everywhere.

toasteroven wrote:I think mine also happened because I set the aliens to "raging horde", or whatever it's called in this game. So I was under attack from pretty much the very start. Had to carve my way through swarms of aliens just to be able to found a second city. Which was all a hell of lot of fun, mind you.

I need to try that.

My little "Starship Troopers" military campaign against the nearby bugs was a lot of fun, and that was on normal settings!

 Lynata wrote:
[Harmony affinity perhaps? I think that one pretty much turns entire factions into Greenpeace.

"That colony is destroying the indigenous life and messing with the environment! Don't they realise they are doing the same thing that led to the destruction of Earth?!"

I could see how leaders who are fixated on coexistence with the planet as-is would dislike a colony that kills off the local wildlife and sets up stinky factories everywhere.

It's possible, and the thought has occurred to me. But if so, then the complaints are happening even before the CPU players get more than a point into the Affinity tracks. I'm not saying that it isn't possible. It merely means that the game decides at the start where each CPU player is going to focus its efforts, and doesn't wait to see how each CPU player's affinities naturally evolve.

And if they complain about removing miasma... well...

There's not much you can do about it then except get ready for war. Given how variable the miasma distribution appears to be, there are some regions of the map in which its more or less impossible to do anything without first clearing out half a dozen spaces worth of miasma.

 Lynata wrote:
Harmony affinity perhaps? I think that one pretty much turns entire factions into Greenpeace.

Amusingly, Harmony is the most warlike of all the affinities.

Yes, even more than Purity.

Eumerin wrote:But if so, then the complaints are happening even before the CPU players get more than a point into the Affinity tracks. I'm not saying that it isn't possible. It merely means that the game decides at the start where each CPU player is going to focus its efforts, and doesn't wait to see how each CPU player's affinities naturally evolve.

Yeah, I think the factions do have a preset affinity, which you can read out of their descriptions and leader interviews. It's just that human players can steer them into different directions?

I've never seen anyone complain about me removing miasma, though. Did you only do it every once in a while, or a lot at the same time? That could factor into it...

Melissia wrote:Amusingly, Harmony is the most warlike of all the affinities.
Yes, even more than Purity.

Well .. Purity doesn't care whether or not the hippies of Franco-Iberia cuddle with the aliens in their zone. On the opposite, I can understand Harmony getting angry if someone unbalances the planetary ecosystem, as that would have repercussions for everyone?

It does. The more people aggressively kill off aliens, the more aggressive and, iirc, powerful level aliens become.

 Lynata wrote:

Eumerin wrote:But if so, then the complaints are happening even before the CPU players get more than a point into the Affinity tracks. I'm not saying that it isn't possible. It merely means that the game decides at the start where each CPU player is going to focus its efforts, and doesn't wait to see how each CPU player's affinities naturally evolve.

Yeah, I think the factions do have a preset affinity, which you can read out of their descriptions and leader interviews. It's just that human players can steer them into different directions?

I've never seen anyone complain about me removing miasma, though. Did you only do it every once in a while, or a lot at the same time? That could factor into it...

I put one of the anti-miasma satellites above my second city. Amusingly, my Chinese neighbors didn't complain about it until just before it de-orbited, presumably due to incremental effects adding up.

Finished my first game last night. I lost. I was doing very well, and was 25% ahead in points of the #2 faction, but I was just a little too slow on getting my victory doodad up and running and they beat me to it. I was also a very peaceful faction, rarely attacking anyone or the aliens, but the late game, wars just started happening everywhere. I eventually figured out that, no matter how friendly you might be with a faction over 100+ years, if your Affinities get too far apart, then they will suddenly turn on you.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Finished my first game last night. I lost. I was doing very well, and was 25% ahead in points of the #2 faction, but I was just a little too slow on getting my victory doodad up and running and they beat me to it. I was also a very peaceful faction, rarely attacking anyone or the aliens, but the late game, wars just started happening everywhere. I eventually figured out that, no matter how friendly you might be with a faction over 100+ years, if your Affinities get too far apart, then they will suddenly turn on you.

Which does make sense. Harmony wouldn't want Purity and Supremacy trashing the planet any further. Purity wouldn't want those who have strayed so far from the human ideal to do whatever crazed they are planning, and Supremacy believes it is doing it for their own good.

So, during last night's game...

- I was playing on Mercury difficulty, but that didn't seem to stop one of my opponents (specifically, not-Brazil) from keeping up in the number of affinities. The others were at the usual lower levels. But the green player was just going nuts with gathering affinities.
- I got another narrative quest that was impossible to complete. This time, it was to build a Neurolab in a city that didn't have Firaxite within its boundaries. This sort of thing seems to be a common problem.
- I lost a city to a ship. This was impossible in Civ 2-4, so I'm guessing that it's a change introduced in Civ 5 that I never noticed.
- You get the "kill a worm" quest the first time you see a worm. But typically, by the time my military can actually hope to fight the things without losing a dozen (or more) units, there aren't any worms left on the map.
- Got another "How dare you remove the miasma!" comment from one of my neighbors after building an anti-miasma satellite. It seems those really set your neighbors off, probably due to how much miasma is being removed all at once (i.e. when the effect finally triggers just before it do-orbits).
- The Diplomatic Favors thing is kind of neat. But at the same time, I'm getting sick and tired of diplomatic "offers" that consist of me offering Open Borders, and an annual energy payment for 30 years in exchange for a Favor. Open Borders in exchange for a Favor is fine. Annual energy payment in exchange for a Favor is fine. But asking for both is just flat out insulting.
- Not-China landed and established its first colony, and the VERY NEXT TURN asked me to declare war on another player (not-Africa, I think)...

Eumerin wrote:
So, during last night's game...
- You get the "kill a worm" quest the first time you see a worm. But typically, by the time my military can actually hope to fight the things without losing a dozen (or more) units, there aren't any worms left on the map.

The odd thing I've found in my games is that worms will come up within bombardment range of my cities, get bombarded once, and then just sit there and let me hit them over and over. If I stop for a turn, they move on. It's worked for killing the things, but it feels like a bug. This is on mercury difficulty; I haven't tried any of the other levels yet.

Ships most certainly could capture cities in Civ II, I did it with battleships all the time.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Ships most certainly could capture cities in Civ II, I did it with battleships all the time.

Odd. I must be misremembering that. But Civ 2 was a long time ago from my point of view. At the very least, I'm pretty sure that they couldn't in IV.

And the idea just seems silly.

Eumerin wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Ships most certainly could capture cities in Civ II, I did it with battleships all the time.

Odd. I must be misremembering that. But Civ 2 was a long time ago from my point of view. At the very least, I'm pretty sure that they couldn't in IV.

And the idea just seems silly.

Certain ones in Civ V can.... For instance, the Trireme can, as it's a "melee" ship, as can the Ironclad, Privateer, and Destroyers. But, the Galleas, Frigate and Battleships as well as submarines cannot because they are all ranged classes.

iirc, Gunboats in Beyond Earth are ranged as well, and they're the only warship in the game (carriers also exist, but afaik they can't attack).

I'll note that I don't use gunboats much myself, as during my first playthrough the sea was literally swarming with sea dragons that kept sinking the things left and right (the dragons always came in pairs; the first dragon would damage the boat, and the second one would sink it). Those incidents left a bit of a mark.

Not related to any ongoing discussion here, I just wanted to say that I rather like the animation when a kraken is attacked by a jet. Very monster movieish.

Eumerin wrote:
So, during last night's game...

- I was playing on Mercury difficulty, but that didn't seem to stop one of my opponents (specifically, not-Brazil) from keeping up in the number of affinities. The others were at the usual lower levels. But the green player was just going nuts with gathering affinities.

It was like that in my game (that I lost). The other factions do keep up fairly well with their Affinities. I think, though, they do so at the expense of other techs (in that the AI may give priority to the techs that match its chosen Affinity)

- I got another narrative quest that was impossible to complete. This time, it was to build a Neurolab in a city that didn't have Firaxite within its boundaries. This sort of thing seems to be a common problem.

I got that same one. To be fair, at the time, the city in question was the closest city I had to any Firaxite, it was still just too far away to ever actually get it. Was your chosen city also the closest one to Firaxite?

- The Diplomatic Favors thing is kind of neat. But at the same time, I'm getting sick and tired of diplomatic "offers" that consist of me offering Open Borders, and an annual energy payment for 30 years in exchange for a Favor. Open Borders in exchange for a Favor is fine. Annual energy payment in exchange for a Favor is fine. But asking for both is just flat out insulting.

I agree. It is nice to throw useless resources at other factions to get favors, and then cash those favors in later on for free energy and whatnot. And I always hate it when the AI wants more in what should be an even trade. Open Borders for Open Borders is a standard, even trade. And yet, the AI sometimes wants extra money on top of it. No thanks, my Explorers can just spend a few extra turns going around you.

That's something that always annoyed me, even when on good terms they often want more than just an even trade.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

Eumerin wrote:
- I got another narrative quest that was impossible to complete. This time, it was to build a Neurolab in a city that didn't have Firaxite within its boundaries. This sort of thing seems to be a common problem.

I got that same one. To be fair, at the time, the city in question was the closest city I had to any Firaxite, it was still just too far away to ever actually get it. Was your chosen city also the closest one to Firaxite?

No, I had a city that actually had a working Firaxite mine when I got the quest. If there was any sort of logic, then that's the city that should have received the quest.

On a more basic level, though, forcing you to go to a particular city is the silliest part of it due to the issue that you describe. The first time I encountered the problem, it wanted me to build a petroleum refinery, and I only had one city at the time - which didn't have access to petroleum. I don't understand why this wasn't flagged as a problem during testing. It makes me wonder if there was a last minute change to the buildings in question only allowing you to build them in cities with the resource. I think the only place that the building description ever explicitly states that you *must* have the resource within the city as a requirement to build the building is on the Build Selection screen. iirc, it's not mentioned in other locations, such as the Tech Web entries. The fact that the buildings typically give you an additional bonus for having the resource (which is essentially required) seems to suggest this also. i.e. the Neurolab might give you (I'm making these numbers up, so they might not reflect the real in-game numbers) +2 Research, with an additional +1 Research bonus if your city contains Firaxite. But you have to have Firaxite within the city to build the Neurolab, so why is it listed as a separate bonus?

That theory makes a lot of sense actually.

Trade routes are bonkers now. There's no reason not to beeline trade depots and convoys ASAP over anything else. With two (three with a 'quest'/decision) from each city, you can have a trade route back and forth between every city you have, and still have trade routes leftover for stations and other civs.

It gets to the point where you're growing a pop every turn, and a city with three pop is outproducing the AI's cities with 10+ pop. Madness.

I really want to like this game, but there's some weird balance issues. I'm also a little disappointed with affinities. I was hoping levels could be accrued by playstyle, not by researching techs or completing a few quests. Like, spending 50 turns at peace with aliens would slowly tick up the Harmony tree, or conversely, every alien you kill could tick you up Supremacy. Having affinity more or less tied to techs is a little boring.

Granted, the tech web is pretty cool. Definitely makes me think a little more.

I dunno. Mixed feelings. Trade routes need a nerf. Badly.

They'll probably get one. Remember, game's been out less than a week now.

Right now I'm so annoyed I could scream. All I want is a nice patch of hilly land to establish my capital(production focus) and some reasonably nearby Firaxite deposits for when I found my first expansion city(science focus), yet without bloody fail every time I finally manage to get such a start, the game bloody bugs out and the "Next Turn" button becomes unclickable.

The last one was the final straw - I only had to Restart once to get the most perfect start I've ever seen for my planned path(Purity Domination victory); a coastal plain tile, surrounded by hills including basalt and copper deposits, a huge canyon within 5 tiles(meaning it's also likely going to get Geothermal), not one but TWO size-10 Floatstone deposits within 4 tiles, and just along the coastline was an area with no less than 4 Firaxite deposits(a couple of 2's, a 7, and a 9). Not to mention the five resource pods and three excavation sites visible right away(I use Retrograde Thrusters). And the button was bugged out. Raeg.

Trade routes are indeed no-brainer beelines, and I'm just finishing up my first marathon game right now and even with only 8 cities, every turn I'm playing "trade route manager 2014".

You'd be silly not to max them out, but in doing so I'm getting very bored with the gameplay...