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Made in gb
Oberstleutnant





Back in the English morass

 daedalus wrote:

From about 1990 on up to about 2010. I could find you exact quotes of people getting accused of being paranoid because they suggested such a thing, but you'd argue that's just anecdotal anyway.


Actually I would argue that would be naivety. Emails and DNA are completely separate issues however.

 daedalus wrote:
As far as actual harm the spying has caused? Go ask Dilma Rousseff.


They spying caused harm when it was made public (and was largely stupid to begin with), but what harm has the average man in the street suffered because his/her emails were scanned by some sneaky government software? People really need to get a sense of perspective.

RegalPhantom wrote:
If your fluff doesn't fit, change your fluff until it does
The prefect example of someone missing the point.
Do not underestimate the Squats. They survived for millenia cut off from the Imperium and assailed on all sides. Their determination and resilience is an example to us all.
-Leman Russ, Meditations on Imperial Command book XVI (AKA the RT era White Dwarf Commpendium).
Its just a shame that they couldn't fight off Andy Chambers.
Warzone Plog 
   
Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

 Palindrome wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
As far as actual harm the spying has caused? Go ask Dilma Rousseff.


They spying caused harm when it was made public (and was largely stupid to begin with), but what harm has the average man in the street suffered because his/her emails were scanned by some sneaky government software? People really need to get a sense of perspective.


Okay. Security holes and software leveraged by vague but menacing government agencies could potentially be exploited by our enemies, be it at a corporate or governmental level.

Some of the later Snowden stuff indicated that they were specifically trying to get into files of sysadmins to get passwords and the like, which could additionally compromise businesses.

Finally, there's a lot of suspicion surrounding US made software, services, and network hardware. The common joke about services on places like Slashdot is that you want to go with something hosted in Russia, because you can count on them to respect your rights. That directly hurts those US companies, and thus, the people working at them.

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions






 Palindrome wrote:
You mean the strawman that you had already constructed?

When was the notion that the government, any government, being able to read emails crazy? On the other hand what actual harm has that caused? Obviously aside from the massive PR damage.

What strawman? Are you actually disputing that the NSA intercepted and read the private emails of US citizens and others? That they did not use meta data to build profiles? All this is known in the public sphere and is a matter of public record. Massive invasion of personal information, unreasonable searching of private correspondence, accusations of breaching confidentiality in relation to legal proceedings, is that enough harm caused?

Which strawman are you claiming that I am arguing? That DNA will not be abused once the sample has been taken? The UK government has been ordered on numerous occasions to destroy DNA samples that it collected in cases such as the OP, but they have instead retained. That is proof that it is already being abused.

 
   
Made in gb
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General




We'll find out soon enough eh.

 filbert wrote:
Yep same here.

Not only that, but there have been several instances here in the UK where the police have blanket tested sections of communities or areas and subsequently discovered perpetrators of other crimes who had hitherto remained unknown thus enabling them to solve legacy crimes where recovered DNA was kept on file.


And hopefully you will never piss off a police officer and find that your on-file DNA has magically appeared in the case file of such a legacy crime.

There's a reason running DNA testing without probable cause and police forces storing people's DNA indefinitely is sinister; DNA evidence is now sufficient to obtain a conviction without any other supporting evidence, providing you have no alibi. It's not limited to angry corrupt police officers either; you'd better not allow your DNA to be taken if you ever planned to run for political office on a radical platform, particularly in a country like the UK, Five would have you fitted up before you'd placed your deposit(and if you think that's paranoia, it's not as if they don't have a history of "extralegal behaviour").

Due process exists for a reason, and IMO regardless of how moral it might seem to "help the police with their inquiries", anyone who does so without first being compelled by a court order is daft.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/14 16:57:48


I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.

"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal 
   
Made in us
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard




Catskills in NYS

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
 Palindrome wrote:
You mean the strawman that you had already constructed?

When was the notion that the government, any government, being able to read emails crazy? On the other hand what actual harm has that caused? Obviously aside from the massive PR damage.

What strawman? Are you actually disputing that the NSA intercepted and read the private emails of US citizens and others? That they did not use meta data to build profiles? All this is known in the public sphere and is a matter of public record. Massive invasion of personal information, unreasonable searching of private correspondence, accusations of breaching confidentiality in relation to legal proceedings, is that enough harm caused?

Which strawman are you claiming that I am arguing? That DNA will not be abused once the sample has been taken? The UK government has been ordered on numerous occasions to destroy DNA samples that it collected in cases such as the OP, but they have instead retained. That is proof that it is already being abused.

How can they abuse DNA?

Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
 kronk wrote:
Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 LordofHats wrote:
 whembly wrote:
Well... just imagine when we go to Single-Payor system... and everyone is in that DNA database.

Gattica anyone?


A medical transplant committee would already (presumably) have access to your blood and could DNA test you anyway so it's not like this is opening some new terrible door to death panels. Why don't they? Because law suits suck. Why not test DNA and just cover it up? Because people aren't generally in the business of being out to get you. When they are, they tend to get caught because crazy stands out in a crowd.

Further, why does everyone just assume that if a DNA database came into existence, every government employee under the sun would have access to it? If you control the information properly, and regulate its use, then some cop can't just decide a black guy did it, pull some random black guy DNA and go to a tech and say "Frame this guy. Subway for lunch?"

The kind of logic used in these "but the government will violate our rights" arguments is the same kind of crap logic used to say Lizard men live in the center of the Earth led by Hitler and want to take over the world. The government can already violate your rights whever it wants to. Saying "we can't do this it'll be abused" should instantly be met with "have anything useful to say Sherlock?" If anything, a nationally controlled and regulated database would make it harder to fake DNA evidence in criminal cases, not easier.

If someone wants to violate your rights, they will. You don't stop that by not doing something you stop it by putting procedures in place to catch it, and when its too big, as Edward Snowden has shown, being a government employee doesn't make you a mindless drone whose only purpose in life is to violate our freedoms.

gak happens. The only way to live life and not be a paranoid loon is to accept that and move on people. Deal with it when it happens not in some hypothetical world that doesn't exist.

*sigh*

I really don't mind the DNA database that is managed by a healthcare/academia setting. It'd be considered as Medical Record information that is already protected (as much as it can be) from possible governmental intrusion.

But having such database managed/operated by a Government Agency? feth no.

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot




WA

 LordofHats wrote:
Further, why does everyone just assume that if a DNA database came into existence, every government employee under the sun would have access to it? If you control the information properly, and regulate its use, then some cop can't just decide a black guy did it, pull some random black guy DNA and go to a tech and say "Frame this guy. Subway for lunch?"


And that's the problem. You have to trust the government to do things right in the first place. This also ties in with the license plate scanners and how the department that was using them couldn't keep the information secure.

"So, do please come along when we're promoting something new and need photos for the facebook page or to send to our regional manager, do please engage in our gaming when we're pushing something specific hard and need to get the little kiddies drifting past to want to come in an see what all the fuss is about. But otherwise, stay the feth out, you smelly, antisocial bastards, because we're scared you are going to say something that goes against our mantra of absolute devotion to the corporate motherland and we actually perceive any of you who've been gaming more than a year to be a hostile entity as you've been exposed to the internet and 'dangerous ideas'. " - MeanGreenStompa

"Then someone mentions Infinity and everyone ignores it because no one really plays it." - nkelsch

FREEDOM!!!
- d-usa 
   
Made in gb
Sadistic Inquisitorial Excruciator






The Midlands

Yep, I think it's a perfectly solid way of trying to catch the criminal. No pussyfooting around by the police like they seem to do here.

 
   
Made in ca
Lieutenant Colonel






hey we test dog doo for DNA, why not test every cigarrette butt, and joint-butt for the DNA, then we can fine people for littering and put them in jail for breaking the drug laws.

same priciple.

 
   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

But having such database managed/operated by a Government Agency? feth no.


And that's the problem. You have to trust the government to do things right in the first place. This also ties in with the license plate scanners and how the department that was using them couldn't keep the information secure.


You can solve the problems by identifying them and fixing them, or you can identify them and then refuse to play. One of those options is about as useful as a hammer with no head.

   
Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

 easysauce wrote:
hey we test dog doo for DNA, why not test every cigarrette butt, and joint-butt for the DNA, then we can fine people for littering and put them in jail for breaking the drug laws.

same priciple.


Long as we're bypassing due process in the name of getting that warm secure feeling, we could empower each police officer to function as a judge too.

Man, would incarceration rates be through the roof.

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 Overread wrote:
There is another angle to this - currently somewhere within the society is a rapist; by screening all members of the school possible of the rape (ergo the males) then potentially by showing that none of them were the rapist this might help the girls recovery and general life at the school - knowing for fact that one of the guys she's surrounded by day to day isn't the rapist.

Then she thinks some stranger is still out there that can get to her at any time.


As for the whole suspect thing that's just common sense. If you refuse sure you're not guilty but its generally considered abnormal in this situation. As a result of that there has to be a reason for the abnormality; could be you just don't want to - could be it infringes upon your rights - could be you did it. Police have to consider all those angles including the last.

It should not be sufficient so that you then can be forced to take one. Thats a velvet fist approach.



But yes in the UK we've had these blanket tests, its a very useful and sensible method when you've a large population and current evidence doesn't allow you to easily whittle it down to a small number. At that point what can you do? The longer time passes the more visual evidence (witnesses) become more unreliable and the easier it becomes for the criminal to hide. They simply have to remain inactive or change their area of operation. A blanket test might well reveal them or scare them into some action that exposes them (eg the linked UK situation where the guy bribed another to take his test for him).


I always get slightly nauseous when someone now says " sensible" or "common sense" the next part means they want to invade your rights about something. Frankly why do police even need a permit? After all you have nothig to hide, do you?

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot




WA

 LordofHats wrote:
But having such database managed/operated by a Government Agency? feth no.


And that's the problem. You have to trust the government to do things right in the first place. This also ties in with the license plate scanners and how the department that was using them couldn't keep the information secure.


You can solve the problems by identifying them and fixing them, or you can identify them and then refuse to play. One of those options is about as useful as a hammer with no head.


So all I have to do is solve corruption?

"So, do please come along when we're promoting something new and need photos for the facebook page or to send to our regional manager, do please engage in our gaming when we're pushing something specific hard and need to get the little kiddies drifting past to want to come in an see what all the fuss is about. But otherwise, stay the feth out, you smelly, antisocial bastards, because we're scared you are going to say something that goes against our mantra of absolute devotion to the corporate motherland and we actually perceive any of you who've been gaming more than a year to be a hostile entity as you've been exposed to the internet and 'dangerous ideas'. " - MeanGreenStompa

"Then someone mentions Infinity and everyone ignores it because no one really plays it." - nkelsch

FREEDOM!!!
- d-usa 
   
Made in gb
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General




We'll find out soon enough eh.

 Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:
 LordofHats wrote:
But having such database managed/operated by a Government Agency? feth no.


And that's the problem. You have to trust the government to do things right in the first place. This also ties in with the license plate scanners and how the department that was using them couldn't keep the information secure.


You can solve the problems by identifying them and fixing them, or you can identify them and then refuse to play. One of those options is about as useful as a hammer with no head.


So all I have to do is solve corruption?


And draught, advocate for, then legislate new legal standards of transparency to which government will be held, and which cannot be overridden by simply mentioning the words "national security" to one of the government's tame Judges.

Easy peasy

I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.

"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal 
   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

 Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:

So all I have to do is solve corruption?


Read my first post for the answer to your question.

I'm going to start a tally for how many posts I find where posters ask a question that was already answered in the exact same conversation. Maybe get me some of that fat cat government research money to prove no one on the internet reads anything but rather just yells at everything else in print (be about as insightful as proving people get mad losing video games).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/14 17:19:41


   
Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

 Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:

So all I have to do is solve corruption?


I'm pretty incorruptible. You could put me in charge.

Just sayin'.

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot




WA

 LordofHats wrote:
I'm going to start a tally for how many posts I find where posters ask a question that was already answered in the exact same conversation. Maybe get me some of that fat cat government research money to prove no one on the internet reads anything but rather just yells at everything else in print (be about as insightful as proving people get mad losing video games).


You could partner with Sebster

"So, do please come along when we're promoting something new and need photos for the facebook page or to send to our regional manager, do please engage in our gaming when we're pushing something specific hard and need to get the little kiddies drifting past to want to come in an see what all the fuss is about. But otherwise, stay the feth out, you smelly, antisocial bastards, because we're scared you are going to say something that goes against our mantra of absolute devotion to the corporate motherland and we actually perceive any of you who've been gaming more than a year to be a hostile entity as you've been exposed to the internet and 'dangerous ideas'. " - MeanGreenStompa

"Then someone mentions Infinity and everyone ignores it because no one really plays it." - nkelsch

FREEDOM!!!
- d-usa 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

I'm extremely corruptable. Pay me to find out more.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

 Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:

You could partner with Sebster


Pft. I'm not paying international charges. I'm still working on the money tree (its not going well).

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






Sheffield, City of University and Northern-ness

In This Thread:
Everyone getting confused by the difference between "DNA Profiling" and "Genetic Sequencing".

Doing a DNA test (like the one which will be performed on the samples taken in the OP) gives you an image like this:



It doesn't tell you whether someone is black, it doesn't tell you that they're more likely to get cancer, it's basically your fingerprint but with the aspect of familial relation.

What everyone who is going on about 'selling the DNA profiles to insurance companies' is thinking of is Full Genome Sequencing, which is what the news is talking about when they say "Scientists have found a gene that makes if 30% more likely that you'll hate spinach". The latter is a different process, which is time consuming and completely unfeasible at present to perform on 500 samples.

Basically, what they are doing is getting a measure of the likelihood that the Rapist's DNA sample came from a specific person. What you're thinking of is analysing that specific DNA sample to find the propensity for certain diseases and similar.

   
Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

So here's the problem with that: The process (or at least I would imagine) isn't transparent enough to goes "Thanks for the sample, stand there watching in that window while I put this in the machine and then autoclave the whole lot of it afterwards." It's likely more like "Okay, thanks for the sample. You'll hear from us when we show up to take you in one day, or don't." No one actually knows what happens with that sample afterwards. The point isn't that we're confusing sequencing with testing. The problem is that we're trusting them not to do it while they have the opportunity, or just freeze it and store it until there's a fun reason to revisit it for that purpose.

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions






 Co'tor Shas wrote:
How can they abuse DNA?

Keeping samples long after they should have been disposed of, and then refusing to dispose of them


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 LordofHats wrote:
You can solve the problems by identifying them and fixing them, or you can identify them and then refuse to play. One of those options is about as useful as a hammer with no head.

That worked so well with the NSA, right? Especially when the POTUS said that he wanted them to continue their snooping on US citizens


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Frazzled wrote:
But yes in the UK we've had these blanket tests, its a very useful and sensible method when you've a large population and current evidence doesn't allow you to easily whittle it down to a small number. At that point what can you do? The longer time passes the more visual evidence (witnesses) become more unreliable and the easier it becomes for the criminal to hide. They simply have to remain inactive or change their area of operation. A blanket test might well reveal them or scare them into some action that exposes them (eg the linked UK situation where the guy bribed another to take his test for him).


I always get slightly nauseous when someone now says " sensible" or "common sense" the next part means they want to invade your rights about something. Frankly why do police even need a permit? After all you have nothig to hide, do you?

I'm starting to think that the new definition of common sense should be 'to forfeit yours rights'

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/14 18:13:43


 
   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

That worked so well with the NSA, right? Especially when the POTUS said that he wanted them to continue their snooping on US citizens


It's almost like corruption is something you constantly have to battle, making claims that we shouldn't do something because it will be abused frivolous and a waste of brain matter.

You know. Like I said a page ago.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/14 18:22:55


   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

And giving the corrput another weapon to use against you is a good thing why?

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions






 LordofHats wrote:
It's almost like corruption is something you constantly have to battle, making claims that we shouldn't do something because it will be abused frivolous and a waste of brain matter.

You know. Like I said a page ago.

So how many reforms have we had then from fighting the good fight against NSA corruption? Are we ready to forgive Snowden yet for disclosing PRISM? Pretending that the government won't abuse their power and resist surrendering any power is frivolous and a waste of brain matter.
Or how about we respect that people have rights, and that we don't get them to sign them away or else be considered a suspect without any other cause?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Frazzled wrote:
And giving the corrput another weapon to use against you is a good thing why?

Because it separates those who will pick up the can from those who won't

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/14 18:28:21


 
   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

 Frazzled wrote:
And giving the corrput another weapon to use against you is a good thing why?


Because corruption is neither its intended purpose or sole use. Merely a side effect of any given systems existence.

   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 LordofHats wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
And giving the corrput another weapon to use against you is a good thing why?


Because corruption is neither its intended purpose or sole use. Merely a side effect of any given systems existence.


Thats great but doesn't answer the question. I'll restate. Why on earth would you give the corrput another weapon or more power to use against you? please explain this leap of logic.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

 LordofHats wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
And giving the corrput another weapon to use against you is a good thing why?


Because corruption is neither its intended purpose or sole use. Merely a side effect of any given systems existence.


With regard to computer security, really, security as a whole, generally it's common practice to limit the vectors for abuse everywhere possible. I don't really think we do that in our government, but we should really start treating it like it's some kind of giant dysfunctional network.

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions






 LordofHats wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
And giving the corrput another weapon to use against you is a good thing why?


Because corruption is neither its intended purpose or sole use. Merely a side effect of any given systems existence.

So PRISM and subverting the right to privacy and the right to be free from unreasonable searches was not intentional?

Remind us how many records from PRISM has been wiped?

 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

Just wanted to throw out that I'm not against a DNA database of any sort.

Washington University in St. Louis was one of the first Academia to map the entire Genome.
http://genome.wustl.edu/

WashU and the local Hospital Organizations are spending buckoo bucks in research in this field.

This is a great thing.

What would a government DNA database be used for?

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
 
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