French school to test DNA of all 500 male pupils and teachers

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**LordofHats**

Frazzled wrote:

Thats great but doesn't answer the question.

That's because the question is rhetorical nonsense masquerading as insight.

**CptJake**

Mr. Burning wrote:
What if all 500 or so tests are made and none offer a positive match?

Well, it would serve to highlight why aside from what many folks consider intrusive and warrantless search, using $$$ to compensate for laziness or incompetence on the part of the police is a bad idea.

Assuming about $200 a pop for the tests (what DNA paternity tests cost around here) and 500 samples, that is $100k. Why should tax payers pony up for that if the cops can't do basic police work and narrow down the suspect list? Add in the coerciveness and I'm 100% against it. Not sure what a cop makes in that area of France, but I suspect 100k would be at least a man year if not 2. Wasteful. Wasteful and intrusive.

**Frazzled**

Nonsense.

You're evading again you cute little authoritarian you.

If corruption exists, why give the corrupt another tool to use over you to become more corrupt or protect themselves? Again, where's the bloody logic there?

**Goliath**

daedalus wrote:
So here's the problem with that: The process (or at least I would imagine) isn't transparent enough to goes "Thanks for the sample, stand there watching in that window while I put this in the machine and then autoclave the whole lot of it afterwards." It's likely more like "Okay, thanks for the sample. You'll hear from us when we show up to take you in one day, or don't." No one actually knows what happens with that sample afterwards. The point isn't that we're confusing sequencing with testing. The problem is that we're trusting them not to do it while they have the opportunity, or just freeze it and store it until there's a fun reason to revisit it for that purpose.

Except the DNA sample would almost certainly be taken in the form of a cheek swab, and the DNA profiling is a destructive process, so there wouldn't be enough of a sample to do both tests.

I know you want to carry on this whole "I don't trust the government, they could do mean things to me" schtick, but in this situation your complaints are categorically untrue; you may not be confusing sequencing with testing, but you're definitely confused as to how the processes work.

Full Genome Sequencing is an expensive process, and to perform it on 500 DNA samples (which have already been destroyed by DNA profiling) would be silly, regardless of this GATTACA-Lite future you're envisioning where genetic vulnerabilities are sold to insurance companies.

**LordofHats**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:

So PRISM and subverting the right to privacy and the right to be free from unreasonable searches was not intentional?

Create clandestine intelligence agencies, and you're gonna do clandestine stuff. Also, no one apparently bothered to ask why on earth monitoring so many communications was at all useful. Solution; clandestine intelligence agencies might not be the best idea anymore (assuming they ever were). I'd honestly debate the long term usefulness of a lot of what the CIA has done over the last 60 years.

**Platuan4th**

Goliath wrote:

Except the DNA sample would almost certainly be taken in the form of a cheek swab, and the DNA profiling is a destructive process, so there wouldn't be enough of a sample to do both tests.

I know you want to carry on this whole "I don't trust the government, they could do mean things to me" schtick, but in this situation your complaints are categorically untrue; you may not be confusing sequencing with testing, but you're definitely confused as to how the processes work.

Full Genome Sequencing is an expensive process, and to perform it on 500 DNA samples (which have already been destroyed by DNA profiling) would be silly, regardless of this GATTACA-Lite future you're envisioning where genetic vulnerabilities are sold to insurance companies.

Finally, someone who knows what actually happens for most genetic tests.

As well, Americans, PLEASE stop applying the way our law works to the French legal system. Ask anyone who practices law in Louisiana, they can tell you they don't work quite the same way.

**LordofHats**

Frazzled wrote:

If corruption exists, why give the corrupt another tool to use over you to become more corrupt or protect themselves? Again, where's the bloody logic there?

Where's the logic in answering loaded questions? I mean, I get the logic in asking them, especially when a position is enitrley based on fear mongering and assuming the only thing that ever comes from government is bad stuff.

**CptJake**

Platuan4th wrote:

As well, Americans, PLEASE stop applying the way our law works to the French legal system. Ask anyone who practices law in Louisiana, they can tell you they don't work quite the same way.

Did you forget the OP asked:

LuciusAR wrote:

So if you where at this school or had a son at this school would you be happy with this?

**Frazzled**

CptJake wrote:
Platuan4th wrote:

As well, Americans, PLEASE stop applying the way our law works to the French legal system. Ask anyone who practices law in Louisiana, they can tell you they don't work quite the same way.

Did you forget the OP asked:

LuciusAR wrote:

So if you where at this school or had a son at this school would you be happy with this?

Also Napoleonic code still is bound by the Bill of Rights in the US.

**Platuan4th**

CptJake wrote:
Platuan4th wrote:

As well, Americans, PLEASE stop applying the way our law works to the French legal system. Ask anyone who practices law in Louisiana, they can tell you they don't work quite the same way.

Did you forget the OP asked:

LuciusAR wrote:

So if you where at this school or had a son at this school would you be happy with this?

I apologize, I missed that line, yes.

Also, I'd be fine with it. But then, all my money comes from our over-bloated, corrupt, fascist overlords in Washington.

**streamdragon**

Platuan4th wrote:
Goliath wrote:

Except the DNA sample would almost certainly be taken in the form of a cheek swab, and the DNA profiling is a destructive process, so there wouldn't be enough of a sample to do both tests.

I know you want to carry on this whole "I don't trust the government, they could do mean things to me" schtick, but in this situation your complaints are categorically untrue; you may not be confusing sequencing with testing, but you're definitely confused as to how the processes work.

Full Genome Sequencing is an expensive process, and to perform it on 500 DNA samples (which have already been destroyed by DNA profiling) would be silly, regardless of this GATTACA-Lite future you're envisioning where genetic vulnerabilities are sold to insurance companies.

Finally, someone who knows what actually happens for most genetic tests.

Again, as was pointed out back a few pages ago, familial DNA can be used to get around due process when it comes to a suspect's genetic test. If I want your DNA, but I know I don't have enough evidence to get it from you, I can (and people have, so this isn't tinfoil-hatting it up) go after a family member on something completely unrelated, and then use that to completely circumvent the lack of other evidence against you. I.e., violate your right to due process.

**Dreadclaw69**

LordofHats wrote:
Create clandestine intelligence agencies, and you're gonna do clandestine stuff. Also, no one apparently bothered to ask why on earth monitoring so many communications was at all useful. Solution; clandestine intelligence agencies might not be the best idea anymore (assuming they ever were). I'd honestly debate the long term usefulness of a lot of what the CIA has done over the last 60 years.

Clandestine intelligence agencies are not permitted to spy on US citizens. It also flies in the fact of your statement that " corruption is neither its intended purpose or sole use. Merely a side effect of any given systems existence.". By its very nature PRISM was always going to be corrupt.

So;
How many elected officials continue to support the NSA?
So how many reforms have we had then from fighting the good fight against NSA corruption?
Are we ready to forgive Snowden yet for disclosing PRISM?
How many records from PRISM has been wiped?

**Goliath**

streamdragon wrote:
Platuan4th wrote:
Goliath wrote:

Except the DNA sample would almost certainly be taken in the form of a cheek swab, and the DNA profiling is a destructive process, so there wouldn't be enough of a sample to do both tests.

I know you want to carry on this whole "I don't trust the government, they could do mean things to me" schtick, but in this situation your complaints are categorically untrue; you may not be confusing sequencing with testing, but you're definitely confused as to how the processes work.

Full Genome Sequencing is an expensive process, and to perform it on 500 DNA samples (which have already been destroyed by DNA profiling) would be silly, regardless of this GATTACA-Lite future you're envisioning where genetic vulnerabilities are sold to insurance companies.

Finally, someone who knows what actually happens for most genetic tests.

Again, as was pointed out back a few pages ago, familial DNA can be used to get around due process when it comes to a suspect's genetic test. If I want your DNA, but I know I don't have enough evidence to get it from you, I can (and people have, so this isn't tinfoil-hatting it up) go after a family member on something completely unrelated, and then use that to completely circumvent the lack of other evidence against you. I.e., violate your right to due process.

And? I get that that's a thing, but it's completely irrelevent to the point I was addressing. I'm talking about the complaints about what happens to the DNA after it's been obtained, not how they obtain the DNA.

**whembly**

Goliath wrote:
streamdragon wrote:
Platuan4th wrote:
Goliath wrote:

Except the DNA sample would almost certainly be taken in the form of a cheek swab, and the DNA profiling is a destructive process, so there wouldn't be enough of a sample to do both tests.

I know you want to carry on this whole "I don't trust the government, they could do mean things to me" schtick, but in this situation your complaints are categorically untrue; you may not be confusing sequencing with testing, but you're definitely confused as to how the processes work.

Full Genome Sequencing is an expensive process, and to perform it on 500 DNA samples (which have already been destroyed by DNA profiling) would be silly, regardless of this GATTACA-Lite future you're envisioning where genetic vulnerabilities are sold to insurance companies.

Finally, someone who knows what actually happens for most genetic tests.

Again, as was pointed out back a few pages ago, familial DNA can be used to get around due process when it comes to a suspect's genetic test. If I want your DNA, but I know I don't have enough evidence to get it from you, I can (and people have, so this isn't tinfoil-hatting it up) go after a family member on something completely unrelated, and then use that to completely circumvent the lack of other evidence against you. I.e., violate your right to due process.

And? I get that that's a thing, but it's completely irrelevent to the point I was addressing. I'm talking about the complaints about what happens to the DNA after it's been obtained, not how they obtain the DNA.

I asked this earlier, but it got buried...

If the government maintains a DNA database of all citizens... what would it's purpose of this database?

**LordofHats**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
By its very nature PRISM was always going to be corrupt.

Which would be relevant if we were discussing whether or not we should start our on PRISM program, but we're not.

How many elected officials continue to support the NSA?

No idea (I know more about the CIA than the NSA, hence why I referenced them above). Unless public opinion becomes so negative as to adversely effect reelection, they probably won't do anything.

Oddly enough, for all the white knighting of American civil rights here, most Americans apparently don't give enough of a damn to do much

Which is probably the only point where PRISM would even be relevant to a discussion about national DNA database.

If people don't care enough, corruption just keeps going and going. Why don't they care? I could be ambitious and propose they're too busy living pay check to pay check to become involved but then I might be labeled a social justice warrior (I'll put it on my name tag).

Are we ready to forgive Snowden yet for disclosing PRISM?

**streamdragon**

Goliath wrote:

And? I get that that's a thing, but it's completely irrelevent to the point I was addressing. I'm talking about the complaints about what happens to the DNA after it's been obtained, not how they obtain the DNA.

How is using familial DNA to avoid due process not something that happens AFTER the DNA is collected?

I mean, I get what you're saying regarding DNA profiling vs genetic sequencing. My point is that using either one as some sort of fishing net to avoid due process should be unacceptable regardless of the test used. Whether you see my orange boxes (ala your picture in your first post) or you get to see the breakdown of every chromosome I have, that is rather immaterial to the fact that due process was violated.

**Mr. Burning**

CptJake wrote:
Platuan4th wrote:

As well, Americans, PLEASE stop applying the way our law works to the French legal system. Ask anyone who practices law in Louisiana, they can tell you they don't work quite the same way.

Did you forget the OP asked:

LuciusAR wrote:

So if you where at this school or had a son at this school would you be happy with this?

As a convicted criminal, whose DNA and fingerprint data is held on file, I don't see why providing a swab for DNA testing should cause a problem. It will at least eliminate potential suspects. and yes, if the French authorities are targeting the school faculty, they have an idea that the victims attacker is or was known to the victim or the attacker knew the victim.

Ruling out family and family and friends leaves the school and staff as next possible suspects. The authorities probably have their eye on local criminals too.

So long as the data is destroyed for those unconnected to the attack there shouldn't be a problem.

**Frazzled**

Then pursue the faculty and people they think may be suspects. Duh.

**Dreadclaw69**

LordofHats wrote:
Which would be relevant if we were discussing whether or not we should start our on PRISM program, but we're not.

It is perfectly relevant. It shows that the government has past form on abusing personal information under the guise of 'national security', and that it cannot be trusted to place limitations or safeguards on abuse

LordofHats wrote:
No idea (I know more about the CIA than the NSA, hence why I referenced them above). Unless public opinion becomes so negative as to adversely effect reelection, they probably won't do anything.

Oddly enough, for all the white knighting of American civil rights here, most Americans apparently don't give enough of a damn to do much Which is probably the only point where PRISM would even be relevant to a discussion about national DNA database.

If people don't care enough, corruption just keeps going and going. Why don't they care? I could be ambitious and propose they're too busy living pay check to pay check to become involved but then I might be labeled a social justice warrior (I'll put it on my name tag).

Maybe in 30, 40 years If politicians can't be bothered enough to resolve the problem children that are the NSA and CIA, they're not going reach out to help Snowden (and of course, no one likes a tattle tell even when tattling is the right thing)

So in short, fighting the good fight has none not one thing to turn back NSA corruption once they have acquired power. Maybe now you'll see why so many people would rather prevent government from claiming new powers instead of trying to fight to get them to relinquish power.

**kronk**

Goliath wrote:

Except the DNA sample would almost certainly be taken in the form of a cheek swab,

Oh. Well that's boring.

**Dreadclaw69**

Mr. Burning wrote:
So long as the data is destroyed for those unconnected to the attack there shouldn't be a problem.

It won't be. The same way that those automated number plate files in California are never deleted. For the same reasons that the UK government fights every order to destroy DNA samples that they no longer have a lawful right to retain

**streamdragon**

Mr. Burning wrote:

As a convicted criminal, whose DNA and fingerprint data is held on file, I don't see why providing a swab for DNA testing should cause a problem. It will at least eliminate potential suspects. and yes, if the French authorities are targeting the school faculty, they have an idea that the victims attacker is or was known to the victim or the attacker knew the victim.

Ruling out family and family and friends leaves the school and staff as next possible suspects. The authorities probably have their eye on local criminals too.

So long as the data is destroyed for those unconnected to the attack there shouldn't be a problem.

If you read the article, you will find that authorities are trying to test all 500+ people because:

1. They are "capable of committing the rape" (i.e.: male)
2. Were known to be at the school when the attack occurred.

That's pretty much it. They aren't "targeting the school faculty" (they are testing students as well), they have no "idea that the victims attacker is or was known to the victim or the attacker knew the victim" (in fact, family and friends have been ruled out somehow). 2 things to meet: dude, there.

**Mr. Burning**

Frazzled wrote:
Then pursue the faculty and people they think may be suspects. Duh.

That's what they appear to be doing, duh.

**Frazzled**

kronk wrote:
Goliath wrote:

Except the DNA sample would almost certainly be taken in the form of a cheek swab,

Oh. Well that's boring.

He didn't say which cheeks.

**Dreadclaw69**

Mr. Burning wrote:
As a convicted criminal, whose DNA and fingerprint data is held on file, I don't see why providing a swab for DNA testing should cause a problem. It will at least eliminate potential suspects. and yes, if the French authorities are targeting the school faculty, they have an idea that the victims attacker is or was known to the victim or the attacker knew the victim.

Good. In that case they can show probable cause and obtain a warrant for the DNA of the suspect(s) instead of having 499 samples of innocent people on record.

**streamdragon**

526 I believe.

**LordofHats**

If the government maintains a DNA database of all citizens... what would it's purpose of this database?

Potential uses;

-Identifying corpses, which leads to
-Criminal investigation uses
-Tracking blood and organ donors nationwide*
-Might have application in combating identity theft
-Probably some kind of scientific hoo nanny would probably be made feasible by it

*Broader blood testing at birth (or even before) would enable quick identification diseases and defects to allow for treatment.

I think we all know that the big one is criminal investigations which also so happens to be the one most people are worried about.

**Frazzled**

Mr. Burning wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Then pursue the faculty and people they think may be suspects. Duh.

That's what they appear to be doing, duh.

Please re-read the OP. They want to test all the male students too.

**Goliath**

streamdragon wrote:
Goliath wrote:

And? I get that that's a thing, but it's completely irrelevent to the point I was addressing. I'm talking about the complaints about what happens to the DNA after it's been obtained, not how they obtain the DNA.

How is using familial DNA to avoid due process not something that happens AFTER the DNA is collected?

I mean, I get what you're saying regarding DNA profiling vs genetic sequencing. My point is that using either one as some sort of fishing net to avoid due process should be unacceptable regardless of the test used. Whether you see my orange boxes (ala your picture in your first post) or you get to see the breakdown of every chromosome I have, that is rather immaterial to the fact that due process was violated.

Ah, reading comprehension fail on my part.

I would agree that that sort of thing is abuse of due process, and is almost always unnacceptable. (Though what would your opinion be on situations where a sample gets a partial match on someone, so tests are performed on their family members?)

Interestingly, getting to see the breakdown of every chromosome you have wouldn't actually be that useful, as most genes are shared, so DNA profiling largely takes place using 'junk' DNA between genes that makes up something like 1% of your DNA. Kinda like comparing two copies of Harry Potter to identify someone using missing apostrophes every few pages or so.

**Mr. Burning**

streamdragon wrote:
Mr. Burning wrote:

As a convicted criminal, whose DNA and fingerprint data is held on file, I don't see why providing a swab for DNA testing should cause a problem. It will at least eliminate potential suspects. and yes, if the French authorities are targeting the school faculty, they have an idea that the victims attacker is or was known to the victim or the attacker knew the victim.

Ruling out family and family and friends leaves the school and staff as next possible suspects. The authorities probably have their eye on local criminals too.

So long as the data is destroyed for those unconnected to the attack there shouldn't be a problem.

If you read the article, you will find that authorities are trying to test all 500+ people because:

1. They are "capable of committing the rape" (i.e.: male)
2. Were known to be at the school when the attack occurred.

That's pretty much it. They aren't "targeting the school faculty" (they are testing students as well), they have no "idea that the victims attacker is or was known to the victim or the attacker knew the victim" (in fact, family and friends have been ruled out somehow). 2 things to meet: dude, there.

I meant the pupils as well - if they are capable and were there at the time it makes sense to eliminate them don't you think?

Still cannot see a problem with the swabbing. It eliminates most everyone and may catch a sex attacker.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:
Mr. Burning wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Then pursue the faculty and people they think may be suspects. Duh.

That's what they appear to be doing, duh.

Please re-read the OP. They want to test all the male students too.

I know. Still no problem.