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Still yet to meet the requirement of being 'engaged' before you can accept the challenge, prior to that point there is no permission to move any Model.

so in actual fact, it goes like this

I issue a challenge to the UNIT(foe at large) I am fighting in close combat
my opponent then nominates character in the UNIT that is engaged in close combat

we are then moved into base contact with each other regardless of where we are in the combat


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he doesn't have to be engaged on a model by model basis, if can fight and he strike hypothetically then can fight a challenge and must decline or accept, how many inches he is from the challenger is irrelevant as the challenger can is swaped with one of his own guys in the combat to get to base contact, and even if if for any reason you can get them into base contact then there assumed to be in base contact

yep you got it.

do I win, would like to go to bed now lol


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thank you all, twas a long and hard struggle to a truth I know we can all live with

Hettar wrote:
and so you see it does not matter where the character is for accepting a challenge,....

Hettar wrote:...Characters that cannot A) fight OR B) Strikes blows(including those that are not engaged in with an enemy model)cannot accept challenges.

You already quoted the relevant rule yourself. If the character is not engaged, it can not accept a challenge.


Note that it doesn't refer to characters that will not be engaged after pile-in moves are made... it simply states that they have to be engaged at the time you are accepting the challenge.

I cant believe I have to keep going with this, only one of the conditions has to be met for the challenger to have to accept/decline where as all three conditions have to be met for a character to not be eligible

Aside from the Rule which you, yourself, quoted that proves you incorrect from a Rule as Written perspective.

The section on accepting Challenges which goes out of it's way to state that only models which are engaged can be selected to accept a challenge, or more accurately that those whom are Not Engaged with an enemy Model are unable to accept challenges. How we determine if a Model is Engaged with an enemy Model is defined on page 23, which requires either Base to Base contact with an Enemy or 2 inches to a friendly in Base to Base contact. Until those conditions are met it is impossible to state that the Character can accept the challenge in the first place, let alone based on the concept that at some theoretical point in the Assault they might meet those requirements. Instructions on how to fight a challenge, including moving the model, does not equal permission to over-come restrictions that might prevent that challenge from occurring.

This is why most people House Rule that requirement away, because the timing makes it impossible to work with.


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Seeing it might be overlooked, let me expand on this new interpretation and why it also doesn't work instead of just a single sentence:
For the Rule to require all the conditions in to be met before it triggers it would need to contain key words such as X and Y (including Z) or out-right state that <all> the following need to be met then to provide us with a bullet point list. In this particular case we find the sentence reading X or Y (including Z) being used between the two conditions, with the engagement requirement being tacked on to one of those two conditions. That indicates that we need to meet only one or the other before the conditions are met and the Rule restricts that Model from partaking in the challenge.

its irrelevant whether or not he's been engaged personally as he's in the unit that has been engaged

Example: I have a conga line of 29 boys and a nob, the nob is at the opposite side from where the combat has resolved charge distance and over watch by an enemy character, at this point the nob is 60 inches away can will never make a pile in move that will bring him close enough, but that is ok because if he has an Attack profile and a Initiative profile and he can fight and strike blows as if he accepts he is swapped for the boy in base contact with the enemy character who issued the challenge or its no worries and he dosnt fight any way........distance from the challenger is irrelevant.


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also there this other little bit in the book on page7 that says advanced rules(pg64) supersede that of basic rules(pg23)

You are making one big mistake we see he from time to time:
Instructions on how to carry out X is not Permission to carry out X, should a Restriction be in play that prevents X.

Wait, your now trying to claim page 7 allows us to ignore the definition of Engaged?
For us to ignore the definition of how a model is engaged with another we will need more Specific Instructions informing us how to determine if the Model meets the new 'engaged' conditions.
Pray tell, on what page can I read how we determine if a Character is engaged with another Model for the purpose of accepting a challenge if it is not page 23.

do you or do you not agree that if any model from a unit is engaged in close combat then the whole is engaged in close combat, as they cannot, move or shoot or do any thing other wise than resolve that combat.

and by that definition the whole unit is engaged in combat

I think you are mistaking Locked in Combat with Engaged in Combat.
Please do Read Page 23, the heading is 'Who Can Fight' as it uses both terminology and explains the difference between the two quite nicely.

including the character regardless of whether or not he is personally in a base to base contact with the enemy

Seeing that we only determine if Models, not entire Units, are engaged in combat there is no way for a character to use another models 'engaged' status.
Instructions involving the Unit use the terminology of locked in combat and both are covered by page 23.

Hettar wrote:
do you or do you not agree that if any model from a unit is engaged in close combat then the whole is engaged in close combat, as they cannot, move or shoot or do any thing other wise than resolve that combat.

and by that definition the whole unit is engaged in combat

No. The whole unit is locked in combat. Individual models are engaged. Units are not.

The character has to be enaged in order to accept the challenge. That means that the character has to be in base contact, or within 2" of a friendly model in base contact.


If the whole unit were considered engaged just because one model is, the requirement for the character to be engaged would be meaningless... the only way he would ever not be engaged in that case would be if the unit wasn't in combat to begin with, in which case there is no way for him to be accepting a challenge anyway.

and I am not mistaking locked in combat for engaged, the words of the text "to issue a challenge, nominate a character in one of your squads locked in the combat to be the challenger!

to accept a challenge nominate a character in your unit to be the challengee........

notice how they didn't put in "unless that character could not swing as he is too far away wont be eligible to swing at his initiative"

You quoted the Rule, how can you not know there is more requirements then 'is the unit locked in combat?'
If that was the only requirement then a model without a Weapon Skill can accept a challenge!

Hettar wrote:
notice how they didn't put in "unless that character could not swing as he is too far away wont be eligible to swing at his initiative"

Again:

Hettar wrote:...Characters that cannot A) fight OR B) Strikes blows(including those that are not engaged in with an enemy model)cannot accept challenges.

Personally: I will just keep House Ruling the 'engaged' requirement away as it really is broken....

Would have been nice for the Authors not to pen a series of Restrictions that made it very difficult to accept challenges, impossible if you don't want to ignore the timing issue caused by 'engaged in combat' being determined during each Initiative Step. Yet as interesting as I find this strange attempt to bend the Rules as Written in a way that it's own Restrictions no longer matter, I can not put that much time into it tonight. I will return tomorrow and see what has progressed, thanks to that same twisted curiosity that occurs at the site of all good Train Wrecks. Part of me wants to see Hettar pull something off, as before mentioned I House Rule this, but at this point it is more to see if something entertaining occurs.

and the model who accepts/declines the challenge before inititative 10 is then moved into base contact with the challenger, then you start the fight at initiative step 10 and the character is most certainly engaged personally before initiative step 10

Hettar wrote:
and the model who accepts/declines the challenge before inititative 10 is then moved into base contact with the challenger, then you start the fight at initiative step 10 and the character is most certainly engaged personally before initiative step 10

Sure. But he has to be already engaged in order to accept the challenge. We know this, because the rule you yourself quoted quite specifically says that characters who are not engaged can not accept challenges.

he is engaged, his unit is locked in combat, if he accepts the challenge he will be in engaged with challenger at initiative step 10(that the reason why he could recieve the hammer of wrath attack in the challenge) and that the whole reason for swapping the models to be in base contact in the first place because otherwise you wouldn't bother ever swaping them as it wouldn't matter

The unit being locked in combat doesn't mean he is engaged

"A model is engaged in combat, and must fight if:
• During its Initiative step, it is in base contact with one or more enemy models.
• During its Initiative step, it is within 2" of a friendly model in base contact with one or more enemy models in the same combat."

So if he isn't in B2B or within 2" of a model in B2B after the charge move then he can't issue or accept a challenge.

pg 22 fight sub and choose a combat, if were going about it your way, its here that we issue challenges way before who can fight on pg23, so when you get to who can fight because you've already issued challenges you find that the character can fight.........gasps all round.......

Hettar wrote:
pg 22 fight sub and choose a combat, if were going about it your way, its here that we issue challenges way before who can fight on pg23, so when you get to who can fight because you've already issued challenges you find that the character can fight.........gasps all round.......

So because you assume he can fight he becomes able to. That's called "Begging the Question."

Hettar wrote:he is engaged, his unit is locked in combat, if he accepts the challenge he will be in engaged with challenger at initiative step 10(that the reason why he could recieve the hammer of wrath attack in the challenge) and that the whole reason for swapping the models to be in base contact in the first place because otherwise you wouldn't bother ever swaping them as it wouldn't matter

His unit being locked in combat does not mean that he is enagaged. It simply means that his unit is locked in combat. Only those models in base contact or within 2" of a friend in base contact are engaged.

And again, the fact that he will be engaged after he has accepted the challenge doesn't matter. He has to be engaged to accept the challenge... because the rule you yourself quoted specifically says so.

If being engaged once you have accepted the challenge was all that was required, again, that clause would be meaningless. There would be no way for the character to ever be in a situation where he could potentially accept a challenge and not wind up in base contact after accepting.

Hettar wrote:,... so when you get to who can fight because you've already issued challenges you find that the character can fight.....

...by which point, challenges have already been issued and accepted or declined. Once you start your initiative steps, it is too late to issue challenges.

pg 23 A model is engaged in combat and must fight if: during its Initiative step, its is in base contact with one of more enemy models..........it was moved before the initiative pile in stage ..... so now answer the question .....is he in the base contact with the enemy at the during his inititiave step........answer yes

back the pg64 can he fight? yes. Can strike blows? yes

if a challenge is issued to a enemy unit(not character)as your not allowed to do that then if it isn't accepted or declined then no characters were either present or will be able to fight in that combat. too simple


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if they do fight with there characters that didn't accept nor decline a challenge with they are cheating, as its quite specific can the character fight Or strike blows and even if he cant strike blows he can definitely fight fulfilling the terms of the challenge the bit saying in brackets including those not engaged with an enemy models just reiterates that the fact that they cant get out of it.

Hettar wrote:
pg 23 A model is engaged in combat and must fight if: during its Initiative step, its is in base contact with one of more enemy models..........it was moved before the initiative pile in stage ..... so now answer the question .....is he in the base contact with the enemy at the during his inititiave step........answer yes

Yes, he is in base contact at his initiative step.

However, the challenge doesn't happen at his initiative step. The challenge, and his acceptance or denial, happens before you start resolving initiative steps. And he has to be engaged in order to accept the challenge.

if a challenge is issued to a enemy unit(not character)as your not allowed to do that then if it isn't accepted or declined then no characters were either present or will be able to fight in that combat. too simple

Sorry, I have no idea what you're even trying to say here.

in order to not be able to to accept or decline a challenge you must fill the 3 criteria's, you cant fight at your initiative step Or you cant swing blows against enemy models Or you are not engaged with an enemy model.

If you can do ANY of these you can accept a challenge and that is what's said on pg64.

and with the new Astra Militarum codex I can give you the example of when all three criteria are met, and that is in the tank commander who is a character in a unit, who doesn't have an attack profile so cant fight or swing blows including those that are not engaged with an enemy model as it cant pile in because its a tank! lol

Hettar wrote:
in order to not be able to to accept or decline a challenge you must fill the 3 criteria's, you cant fight at your initiative step Or you cant swing blows against enemy models Or you are not engaged with an enemy model.

As has already been pointed out to you, this is incorrect. There are only two criteria (not three) for being unable to accept a challenge (Not being engaged is included in the second one) and they are separated by an 'or' rather than an 'and'. That means that if either of those conditions apply, the character can not accept a challenge.

The mistake Hettar appears to be making here is thinking that the "not" in "cannot fight or strike blows" is negating the "or" rather than negating the auxiliary verb "can."