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So everyone knows the undisputed kings of the Necron infantry are Wraiths: fast, fearless, killy, survivable, and relatively cheap considering everything they do.

There's three other similarly priced units that theoretically should be good, too, but they all fall down in some way or another.

Destroyers - 40 points
Pros: fast, excellent MEQ killers.
Cons: kinda fragile for their price (single wound T5 model with only a 3+ and RP).

Lychguard - 40/45 points
Pros: very killy or very survivable.
Cons: killy OR survivable (either S7 AP1 CC weapon, or 4++ save. Can't take both in the same unit). Also extremely slow.

Praetorians - 40 points
Pros: fast, fearless, decently killy.
Cons: only as survivable as Destroyers, so too fragile for guys that are supposed to be getting up close and personal, especially for that price.

Is there any way to make these units legtimately viable, or are we relegated to waiting for the next update to the codex and hoping they fix them then?

Destroyers are awesome when they don't get shot at, but as you've mentioned they're really squishy for their points cost. A destroyer lord will only make his points back by wrecking stuff in melee, so tacking on one with an Orb for 155pts is a huge points sink, so that's out of the question. Heavy Destroyers are a little more survivable, because of their longer range and depending on what army you're facing. If the opponent is competent enough to take cover and has access to autocannons or something, 60pts for a PE lascannon becomes so much less appealing compared to an Annihilation Barge.

Regular destroyers are awesome MEQ, but fall short for TAC purposes, I think. Much like lychguard and praetorians, they're not terrible, but they're merely overshadowed by other things in the codex that are more reliable, cheaper and killy.

Lychguard, as you mentioned, suffer from lack of mobility and struggle to get into melee. Some of it is 6th edition not catering to tough, foot slogging melee units. Deep striking them into the enemy's backfield is fun, but I try to shy away from devoting a 300pts+ unit to a deep strike and I don't think it's reliable. A res orb is pretty much always a must with a lychguard unit. The 4++ isn't terribly reliable, especially when you consider you could take wraiths with a 3++.

I'm sure you've seen praetorian units taken with a D.Lord for the same reason a D.Lord is taken with wraiths. Much like lychguard, for how expensive they are, praetorians really benefit from a D.Lord with an orb. I've never understood why praetorians only have one attack, I've yet to use them myself, but I would think that they could be too easily tarpitted, so I'd want to give them voidbaldes for the extra attack. S5 rending is somewhat scary, but then you compare that to Wraiths, who have S6 rending, 3 attacks each and a 3++ invul save for slightly cheaper. Against armies lacking low AP weapons, I wouldn't be surprised if praetorians with a res. orb were more durable than wraiths, but with a TAC mindset, the 3++ is too good.

I'd like to see a price drop on Lychguard, Destroyers and Praetorians (and maybe Praetorians being given 2 attacks base) in the next codex. I wouldn't be surprised if wraiths were nerfed to some extent, so that might make picking a dedicated melee unit more of a choice. Lychguard units able to take both swords/shields AND warscythes would make them a little more useful; still slow and derpy, but that's melee Necrons for you.

Wraiths are just too good right now.

Destroyers work well when equipped with a big gun. Overcosted, sure, but still very fast and mobile lasguns. I still use a squad of 3-4 in every game of mine (TruCron all through!) and they do a very good job. They offer AP2 shooting, something Necrons sadly are in dire need of.

Lychguard are useless. Praetorians are not that bad, they can do a decent job. Wraiths are better, of course, but they are among a hard competition in their respective slot.

Everyone agrees about a price drop being required for the three units in question.
The sad thing is, with just one simple change (mixed gear in same unit), Lychguard would be a pretty decent consideration.
Say drop them down to 30 points per model, give them the option to upgrade the unit with Sempiternal Weave, and BAM, Necrons finally have a decent TEQ. Remove that idiotic "Warriors only" rule the Ghost Ark has and they'd have assault transport, too.
...
But enough wishlisting

 skoffs wrote:
Everyone agrees about a price drop being required for the three units in question.
The sad thing is, with just one simple change (mixed gear in same unit), Lychguard would be a pretty decent consideration.
Say drop them down to 30 points per model, give them the option to upgrade the unit with Sempiternal Weave, and BAM, Necrons finally have a decent TEQ. Remove that idiotic "Warriors only" rule the Ghost Ark has and they'd have assault transport, too.
...
But enough wishlisting

Also power axes please.

 Kain wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
Everyone agrees about a price drop being required for the three units in question.
The sad thing is, with just one simple change (mixed gear in same unit), Lychguard would be a pretty decent consideration.
Say drop them down to 30 points per model, give them the option to upgrade the unit with Sempiternal Weave, and BAM, Necrons finally have a decent TEQ. Remove that idiotic "Warriors only" rule the Ghost Ark has and they'd have assault transport, too.
...
But enough wishlisting

Also power axes please.

This.

Personally, if lychguard had rending, they'd be worth the points. counter-attack would be great too, even if their weapons became ap 4 to do so.

Pretorians need atleast one more attack and the fact that their Rods of Covenant are unwieldy(int 1) is horrific. Make them swing at Int 2 again.

Basically, lychguard are made for defense, using their toughness to hold the enemy hordes(weight of attacks is necron weakness) at bay. Their profile should reflect this.

Praetorians are an anti-terminator strike unit. They are jump infantry that can deep-strike. They eliminate/weaken the threat of death-stars. Their profile should reflect this.

Lower the price for Heavy Destroyers by ~10 points please.

 Truth118 wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
Everyone agrees about a price drop being required for the three units in question.
The sad thing is, with just one simple change (mixed gear in same unit), Lychguard would be a pretty decent consideration.
Say drop them down to 30 points per model, give them the option to upgrade the unit with Sempiternal Weave, and BAM, Necrons finally have a decent TEQ. Remove that idiotic "Warriors only" rule the Ghost Ark has and they'd have assault transport, too.
...
But enough wishlisting

Also power axes please.

This.

This way we can truly have "shhh we're not hammernators".

 skoffs wrote:
Everyone agrees about a price drop being required for the three units in question.
The sad thing is, with just one simple change (mixed gear in same unit), Lychguard would be a pretty decent consideration.
Say drop them down to 30 points per model, give them the option to upgrade the unit with Sempiternal Weave, and BAM, Necrons finally have a decent TEQ. Remove that idiotic "Warriors only" rule the Ghost Ark has and they'd have assault transport, too.
...
But enough wishlisting

Fluff wise, allowing them to take Ghost Arks wouldn't make that much sense, since it's basically a funeral cart.
Doesn't make much sense for an elite bodyguard to go riding around in a space-hearse.

Besides, Lychguard can take Night Scythes already, and the monolith can teleport them around as well.
The problem is that they can't charge, meaning that they will be shot up for a turn.

However, I'm thinking that Lychguard are NOT intended to be an offensive unit; their role isn't to get up in your opponents face, but to protect (or rather...guard) other necrons from assault.

Here's a thought - stick a unit of shield guard behind a vehicle, and a bunch of warriors in front.
If the enemy charges the warriors, bring up the guard and counter charge them.

Scythe Guard should be used against vehicles and MCs that get too close to your lines, however, I feel that Praets are more suited to the role of anti-armor / anti-TEQ.

Yeah, I'd tried that assault-deterrent-unit-of-Lychguard-hovering-near-the-Warrior-blob tactic before... it worked in one sense, in that my opponent didn't charge the blob... however, it also meant I had 400 points of useless Warscythes standing around with their thumbs up their collective metal asses the whole game (in hind sight, spending more points to protect the blob than the blob itself was worth miiiiiight not have been the wisest of ideas).

In ye olden days; Warscythes had Gauss Blasters on them.

They also ignored invuls, had no armorbane, and I don't think had the 2+ strength bonus.

I miss my pariahs if you can't tell.

 skoffs wrote:
Yeah, I'd tried that assault-deterrent-unit-of-Lychguard-hovering-near-the-Warrior-blob tactic before... it worked in one sense, in that my opponent didn't charge the blob... however, it also meant I had 400 points of useless Warscythes standing around with their thumbs up their collective metal asses the whole game (in hind sight, spending more points to protect the blob than the blob itself was worth miiiiiight not have been the wisest of ideas).

Well...I guess that tactic was successful then





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kain wrote:
In ye olden days; Warscythes had Gauss Blasters on them.

They also ignored invuls, had no armorbane, and I don't think had the 2+ strength bonus.

I miss my pariahs if you can't tell.

So do I. Pariah Warscythes were awesome. Dangerous in CC and ranged.
The modern version wouldn't be that amazing though; rapid fire weapons on an unit who wants to cut a fool aren't great.

Old warscythes did not provide +2 strength; just anti-save and 2d6 pen.

Kind of like putting a short ranged heavy weapon on a jump assault unit...like the transdimensional beamer.
That's one of choices in the 5th ed book that just leaves me scratching my head; how could something like that be useful? I mean, a turn spent shooting that thing is a turn spent not moving or charging, which is what wraiths are for.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
like the transdimensional beamer.
That's one of choices in the 5th ed book that just leaves me scratching my head; how could something like that be useful? I mean, a turn spent shooting that thing is a turn spent not moving or charging, which is what wraiths are for.

My theory is that it was actually supposed to have gone on the Spyders, but somewhere along the way in the planning process some notes got jumbled around and the Wraiths accidentally ended up getting stuck with it instead (second biggest "wtf is the point of this?" frak up in the codex, right after Ethereal Interception (aka. "Woops! We forgot to errta Deathmarks to have Interception after 6th edition came out. Now that rule is pretty much useless. Oh well, maybe no one will notice.").)

Anyway, back on topic.

As I typed before, I consider the Lychguard to be a defensive unit; they are a safe place to put your overlord and a way of telling those pesky infiltrators and assault units to stay away from your phalanxes.

However, I observed a couple of problems about their loadout that are counterproductive to their role -

The first is that they, as a defensive unit, have to pay for defensive gear. Which is absurd; the scythes should be the upgrade, not the shields.

The second is that they cannot mix and match; it's either All defense or all offense.

So they have a choice of -

1- Being Resiliant, but unable to efficiently engage all units that threaten your lines, thereby going against their role.

2- Being able to engage all enemies, but becoming fragile as a result, thereby going against their role.

One could compensate by giving the Overlord / Lord a warscythe, but what if one wishes to give him a gauntlet of flame or a staff instead? By not allowing the guard to just take at least 1 scythe, the necron player's choices are decreased.

Ergo, the best fix to the lychguard isn't to give them a transport, make them able to assault at all times or even give them 2 wounds each, but to simple swap their default gear around and give them more flexibility in their options.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The second is that they cannot mix and match; it's either All defense or all offense.

Seriously, this is my only major problem with them.
All of those other things would be nice (price decrease, increased armor save, etc.), but if we could just simply mix and match wargear in the same unit, I have a feeling a lot more people might consider them.

Have you tried running them with Trazyn?
I'd want to try some time, but I'm not sure whether it'd be worth it (and even if I did, it would have to be double Royal Courts, as there's no way I'd run a unit of Lychguard without a ResOrb, and there's no way I'd run Trazyn without a Chrono-tek).

 skoffs wrote:
Destroyers - 40 points
Pros: fast, excellent MEQ killers.
Cons: kinda fragile for their price (single wound T5 model with only a 3+ and RP).

I've had a couple good games by using 3 Heavy Destroyers, each as a unit of 1. Because I've spread them out, they haven't been a target priority (my opponent would rather try and neutralize the Wraiths barreling down on their line than a lonely Heavy Destroyer off by his lonesome).

It's worked for me twice so far, but definitely cost me too many points.

 jasper76 wrote:
I've had a couple good games by using 3 Heavy Destroyers, each as a unit of 1. Because I've spread them out, they haven't been a target priority (my opponent would rather try and neutralize the Wraiths barreling down on their line than a lonely Heavy Destroyer off by his lonesome).

It's worked for me twice so far, but definitely cost me too many points.

Most people's FA slot is a prime commodity, so you'd probably only be able to run this at 2000+ point games.
... but if I was playing against an army that fielded a solitary single wound model, I'd be thinking to myself, "Hello, first blood..."

 skoffs wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
I've had a couple good games by using 3 Heavy Destroyers, each as a unit of 1. Because I've spread them out, they haven't been a target priority (my opponent would rather try and neutralize the Wraiths barreling down on their line than a lonely Heavy Destroyer off by his lonesome).

It's worked for me twice so far, but definitely cost me too many points.

Most people's FA slot is a prime commodity, so you'd probably only be able to run this at 2000+ point games.
... but if I was playing against an army that fielded a solitary single wound model, I'd be thinking to myself, "Hello, first blood..."

True enough.

Actually, each time of done this, my plan has been to divert fire from advancing units onto those lonely HDestroyers. However, noone has taken the bait yet!

I'm curious about something. I'm wondering what would happen if we enacted a thought experiment that placed a single restriction on our codex: the disallowed use of Wraiths. They are completely exempt from discussion. We all know Wraiths cost effectiveness invalidates the use of any of these models because no matter how hard they try, they simply aren't Wraiths. They're too expensive, slow, fragile or all three. There is no reason to pick these units, unless there is a serious meta shift, over Wraiths in a competitive or semi-competitive list. However, if we exempt their use, the question becomes what kind of list do we build to support these once overshadowed choices?

I'll start. To me, I consider Destroyers as important pieces of an all foot army. They are meant to be the heavy hitters and replacement/compliment to Barges. With Str 5 guns and fast movement they can quickly close the distance with light to medium infantry while still proving to be threats to heavier targets like MCs. In a pinch can even be used in an anti-tank role. The Heavy Destroyer excels much further in the latter and less in the former. I feel they need to be in an all infantry or vehicle lite army because it requires proper target acquisition from the opponent. There are more threats and things to kill than just the Destroyers with their anti-infantry guns. There are durable troops and HQs that will press and ultimately win the game for you if they aren't shut down. Everything in the army has the chance to come back and grind out the game all the way to the end. To be honest, and this is a stated opinion with literally no math or fans experience to back it up, part of me is also considering that squads of 4 normal Destroyers are more optimal than full squads. You lose 2 shots but gain more points back that allow you to flood your other FA slots with, say, more Destroyers than before.

That's just my opinion though and can obviously be incorrect, but what does everyone else think? What about the other units? How can we best support them?

Destroyers have a completely different role than Wraiths and are at the far lower end of the power scale - so I don't see how those even conflict.

It's really hard to justify anything in the FA slot besides Ancanthrites and Wraiths...

I wouldn't say that.

Tomb Blades are good against hoards

Destroyers are good against heavy vehicles and infantry without having to get close.

Scarabs are hilarious to use. Oh, that tank has AV14? Well, now it has AV5.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Destroyers have a completely different role than Wraiths and are at the far lower end of the power scale - so I don't see how those even conflict.

I think it conflicts because their role may be different, but they occupy the same slot, and as we have established: Wraiths are the world champions of the FA slot. There is no reason to take anything else if we always consider them in the argument., and that's why I wanted to move away from even the inclusion of them.

And this is isn't to say everything in our FA slot is bad, it's actually quite good compared to say C: SM where there can be some less than stellar units/units that can be made to troops because of FO changes. It's just as a whole, the codex requires synergy and FA is not any different. I was just trying to steer us into thinking about ways to make these obviously-not-wraiths units work.

Most FA choices are worse than the average meta nowadays, that's the problem, not that they are worse than Wraiths. Destroyers are far too fragile to be effective, Heavy Destroyers are overcosted, Scarabs are good, Acanthrites are very good and jetbikes are horrible models I refuse to field for their looks alone but are slightly below average.

Not to mention that removing Wraiths would leave Necrons with no viable melee unit which heavily weakens the entire codex and shifts the balance to the other end.

I don't disagree with you either. I know that Heavy and normal Destroyers are overcosted. Tomb Blades are okay. They're probably about average on the whole. Scarabs and Wraiths are the real jewels of the FA.

I'm not saying remove Wraiths from competitive lists. I know they're pivotal for Necrons because they solve so many innate problems we have in the codex. CC? Got it covered. MCs and TEQs got you down? Got it covered through high strength rending attacks. Durability? Check. Cheap? Double check. They have everything we need to compete, but I'm just trying to see what our collective can come up with for our weaker preforming units. I mean, up until about a month ago I hadn't heard anything about the Spyder deathstar, and I've been on this forum for a little over a year now. That's all I've been trying to say.

The question in this thread was can we make these units work at a reasonable level? Are they going to be tournament winning? No. Can they be average? Sure, I like, and want, to think so. The removal of Wraiths was merely meant to be a hypothetical question. What can we do to think of ways to make Lychguard, Praetorians, and Destroyers better? Will they ever be on the level of Wraiths in the current codex? But, how can we make them reach their full potential, and what kind of list would help them reach it.

I got your point and I really appreciate someone with that perspective of yours!

My point is that the problem of LG/Pr isn't strong competition, it's them being underpowered by design, i.e. poor stats / equipment and cost, all problems Wraiths really do not interfere with

The killer is, I WANT to like these things.
Lychguard/Praetorians/Destroyers should, fluff-wise, be the baddest asses in the codex.
Instead they're relegated to second or third fiddle after, fluff-wise, what ammounts to the Tomb World's Roombas.

I agree with KelCJ's sentiment, especially in regards to the whole "the Spyder-star came out of nowhere" thing: there's got to be some way to use these guys that no one's considered yet.

Skoffs, you and I both. I really love the Praetorian/Lychguard models. They're so awesome, and I want to make these guys worth fielding.

I suppose we should start considering what we would need to do to make these guys good. What synergizes with them? For Praetorians - The first thing that comes to my mind is a Destroyer Lord. With a Res Orb, a Destroyer Lord gives an added boost to their combat and staying power, and with their natural fearlessness they will always get their reanimation protocols unless Terrified away. That's a huge plus in my book. When I was having a discussion with someone else in regards to footcrons, they gave me what I I believed to be some solid advice. With reanimation protocols, always try to have one model in BLoS cover. That way it would be impossible to wipe out the squad with shooting. With their Fealess and if there's enough terrain to allow this, then this further extends the lifeline of Praetorians.

Now that people are also shying away from Terminators and their equivalents, imo, it is worth it to give these guys Void Blades and Particle Casters. They give you the amount of attacks you need, paired with preferred enemy, to overcome most units and even MCs. Now, obviously, they require more finesse than Wraiths due to a lower amount of base attacks and shouldn't be blindly run into the enemy lines, but they are still capable combatants.

It is also worth noting that the thing that shreds Wraiths the most, small arms fire, is something Praetorians are fairly durable against. With T5 it makes basic boltguns/their equivalents wound on 5+ and anything worse on a 6+. That's pretty important to me, and if you are willing, taking Imotek will allow them to also gain stealth and shrouded bonuses (or if you prefer, Zhandrekh) T1 and T2 which will allow them to approach with the same relative durability as Wraiths.

Now, the question I need help with is what else in the army would synergize well with them? I'd like to say Scarabs (Wraiths too ironically) and Spyders would work as additional threats if we decide to go with troops in Night Scythes. But perhaps a foot based army would work well here too. More to focus on with your anti-infantry then just the praetorians.

The lychguard work really well if they have dispersion shields and there's nearly no cover on the center of the board. Put in a squad of ten and then use them as a shield wall to evade those annoying las guns and bolsters.