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Goblin wolf chariot can be upgraded with 1 more wolf.
If I purchase this upgrade, do I have to add a wolf in the front, making the chariot wider in front?
And if yes, do I have to put the wolves symmetrically, or I can choose to place the extra wolf right or left of the other wolves?

There's no rules about it AFAIK
RAW I suppose that you can't change the basing of the chariot, but it wouldn't make any sense to have bunched up wolves

It's the same model. The base always stays the same and that's what matters, having a third wolf does not change anything in regards to the game. If the tournament is 100% WYSIWYG, then yes, you'd have to, but I haven't heard of such a thing in WHFB yet.

The wolf isn't really worth taking.
1 S3 attack isn't that big of a deal.

If I were going to take it, I'd add the wolf to the crew compartment, mostly because it would look awesome.
Wolf sitting upright with the reigns in his mounth.

The 4th crew is a better deal; same cost, but shows up with a spear and shortbow.

-Matt

Well, the point isn't if it is worthy, but what happens if I want to take it. I'm crazy obsessed and bad player and I want to have wolfs all around.
If the extra wolf was added to the model, then the chariot would be less mobile with 3 wolves instead of 2.

The base size doesnt alter, so have the wolf in the chariot

I've seen some fab conversions of goblin wolf chariots before - little house on the prairie theme, for example

Fantasy is basically quite WYSIWYG free for the most part. Most of the models have upgrades, but there isn't the same demand to have them representative as there is in 40K, mainly because the primary weapons of the model nearly always remain the same (barring hero of which you'll only have very few on the table).

Upgrades are in general not needed, even in 40K most people don't worry about modelling anything but the primary weapons; its just not practical otherwise.

TanKoL wrote:
There's no rules about it AFAIK
RAW I suppose that you can't change the basing of the chariot, but it wouldn't make any sense to have bunched up wolves

Well, Grom's chariot does have 3 wolves and is 3 cavalry bases wide. Likewise, settra's chariot has 4 horses and is indeed made of a chariot base with one horse base stuck to each side.

However, I would not mind facing a three-wolf chariot on a normal base. Not that I've ever seen anyone paying for the extra wolf, though.

You are not allowed to change any base size. Grom's chariot has 3 because it comes with 3. Likewise for Settra. A Wolf Chariot comes on a regular chariot base, thus always uses that base.

 Sigvatr wrote:
You are not allowed to change any base size. Grom's chariot has 3 because it comes with 3. Likewise for Settra. A Wolf Chariot comes on a regular chariot base, thus always uses that base.

A 2 wolf chariot. There's no official model for a 3-wolf, non-character chariot so it falls on the unreleased model grey area.

jouso wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
You are not allowed to change any base size. Grom's chariot has 3 because it comes with 3. Likewise for Settra. A Wolf Chariot comes on a regular chariot base, thus always uses that base.

A 2 wolf chariot. There's no official model for a 3-wolf, non-character chariot so it falls on the unreleased model grey area.

Wrong. It's not a grey area. The model is sold as a Goblin Wolf Chariot. It's not a "2 Wolf Goblin Chariot". It's "Goblin Wolf Chariot".

The number of wolves isn't changing the base size - its simply an optional upgrade choice on the model. Barring hero units choosing to take a mount no upgrade in the fantasy army line involves a change in the base size. The base size is fixed at the size sold with the model.

So the extra wolf just fits in between the others on the same sized base if you want to model it.

Gonna' have to agree with Sigvatr and co. on this one.

Chariots have a set base size. RAW, it has nothing to do with how many whatevers are pulling it.
Grom and Settra have big bases because it's in the rules.

But, as said above. Get the Goblin crewman first.
...though I will admit that two fully upgraded chariots in the flank, plus Sneaky Stabbin' is pretty sweet. 14 AP attacks that re-roll to hit and wound is not what your opponent is expecting from Goblins.

Warpsolution wrote:
Gonna' have to agree with Sigvatr and co. on this one.

Chariots have a set base size. RAW, it has nothing to do with how many whatevers are pulling it.
Grom and Settra have big bases because it's in the rules.

But, as said above. Get the Goblin crewman first.
...though I will admit that two fully upgraded chariots in the flank, plus Sneaky Stabbin' is pretty sweet. 14 AP attacks that re-roll to hit and wound is not what your opponent is expecting from Goblins.

I'd rather have the 3rd chariot for not that much more.
Don't forget that the impact hits also get armor piercing and re-rolls to wound.

-Matt

Sure, sure. But if I've got a few points left lying around, and they happen to be a multiple of 5, it's not a terrible idea.

But I don't take Orc Bullies for my war machines. Not in a Goblin army, anyway.

It's not a Goblin army if you take any Orc model. Like, really guys. No big 'uns.

Exactly. And no Orc Warboss either. Deal with the panic.

Warpsolution wrote:
Exactly. And no Orc Warboss either. Deal with the panic.

LD 9 is enuff!

jouso wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
You are not allowed to change any base size. Grom's chariot has 3 because it comes with 3. Likewise for Settra. A Wolf Chariot comes on a regular chariot base, thus always uses that base.

A 2 wolf chariot. There's no official model for a 3-wolf, non-character chariot so it falls on the unreleased model grey area.

Am I mistaken or? Looking like there exists an official 3 wolf chariot model, and it's 75mm wide..




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sigvatr wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:
Exactly. And no Orc Warboss either. Deal with the panic.

LD 9 is enuff!

Hey, you guys go play YOUR goblins how YOU want.

The model comes from a way outdated army book

Looks awesome as feck though.

 Sigvatr wrote:
The model comes from a way outdated army book

Looks awesome as feck though.

This model seems extremely relevant to our current book.. As we can take 3 wolves. To me it doesn't really matter when it came from..
It came from same period as Grom. He is used as example of when and how a 3rd steed happens....


Not sure why you don't think this model is applicable.

skyfi wrote:

Not sure why you don't think this model is applicable.

An out of production model can't be used to represent base-size for a modern model otherwise we'd have pure madness.

Base sizes are based upon the current edition of models - now certainly you can use an old model in a Warhammer game without any problems, but most would expect you to have them on the correct base sizes as defined by the current edition models.

Oh I know what you mean. Otherwise people would baseskaranik on 2 20mm instead of 6. Like he used to be.

My point is that grom still uses his 3rd wolf as is current model.. Which to me wouldbe an indication of how to deal with the 3rdwolf scenario we encounter...

The argument that since it's not in production so it's outside realm of possibility would mean that the majority of brettonia. Models could not be played right? As they wouldn't have current models to dictate and draw base size from... Only old obsolete OOP models....

I understand the argument why to strictly use the 50x100 I just don't think that logic should be ignored in favor of RAW. Logic tells me "hey Gw showed us how to handle this 20 years ago"

If grom and settra aren't breaking game, I doubt these would. Not arguing that RAW you should use the 3rd wolf, just by RAI.

Eh still not true - if you have a model that is in the codex but has no current model then the existing (older even if out of production) model is the only guide we have until GW either removes the unit from the codex or releases a model.


In the case of where you have an old model AND a current edition of the model the base size of the current edition trumps the old model.

I see my mistake on the bretonnian reference.

we have a model, a goblin wolf chariot (pulled by 3 wolves because of an upgrade) in the codex

it has no current model in production

it does however have a pre existing out of production model that we could use as a guide until GW releases a new model though, the only problem is it is not called a "Goblin Wolf Chariot"... I think it is a "Goblin Three Wolf Chariot" right? So they might as well be apple in oranges as far as rules are concerned? But its like in the back of my mind I have this burning nagging thing telling me, a "Goblin Three Wolf Chariot" sounds a lot like a goblin chariot pulled by 3 wolves... which we know is in our army book... I know it takes deducing so wouldn't be RAW but eh.

When we think of how to model it, I guess with Settra and Grom being in the game, and the old three wolf chariot model existing..... It gives us an indication of what to do.

I wouldn't mind someone showing up with them 75 wide in front to a tourney or 50 wide, as it's grey and hard to know for sure.... RAW I would say 50 all day, RAI I would lean 75 using Settra, Grom, and the OOP 3 wolf chariot as reasoning...

Them being 50 wide is definately advantageous over being 75 wide, so it's hard for me to accept at face value that things are as they seem... because they seem too good. Settra and Grom are handicapped by being so wide, the # of attacks back alone.

It's much more simple than you're making it out.

The current model has a current release from GW with a base size

The model in the codex has a series of upgrades which you can choose to use.

One of those upgrades happens to be "add a wolf" to the unit. You can choose to model this on the model itself if you so choose (upgrades in fantasy are generally optional in this regard for most casual games).

The upgrade in the codex makes no mention that hte base size of the model is changed when you select the wolf upgrade. As a result the base size remains as standard as supplied in the box of the existing model.


Whilst there is an older model in the army with 3 wolves its base size does not count because its an older version of the model. Whilst the model itself can be used in a modern game it would be expected to be used on the same base size as supplied in the current edition of hte model.

 Overread wrote:

skyfi wrote:

Not sure why you don't think this model is applicable.

An out of production model can't be used to represent base-size for a modern model otherwise we'd have pure madness.

Base sizes are based upon the current edition of models - now certainly you can use an old model in a Warhammer game without any problems, but most would expect you to have them on the correct base sizes as defined by the current edition models.

Not true. Models are played with the bases that they are provided with, not the most recent incarnation. This applies to both fantasy and 40k, so you could use the old 50x50mm based giant or 25mm round base terminators. By the rules, you are in fact required to ask your opponent's permission if you are using a base size other than the one provided with the model.

So if you obtained that old model, you would have a 75mm frontage. If you bought the new one, you would use the current chariot base. Your opponent cannot force you to change the bases of their models.

Well, if that's true, than you can buy a normal Goblin Wolf Chariot, get the extra wolf upgrade, and still use "the base the model came with".

Adding an extra wolf doesn't make the Goblin Wolf Chariot into a Three-Wolf Goblin Wolf Chariot any more than an extra crew member makes it a Four-Goblin Goblin Wolf Chariot.

And if the "bases they are provided with" logic is supposed to hold true, what about models that are largely custom jobs, and didn't come with a base at all?

a "Snotling attack cart" is also NOT a "snotling pump wagon" but I wouldn't mind someone using one as the other. I think its pedantic not to. It's clearly a fine count as/seems like the same damn model, similiar to this wolf chariot/three wolf chariot situation...

I was under the impression that the rule stating it must be based on what it came with was a true rule. I have heard of people being gamey and bringing old skarsnik model for that reason over the new ones. Same thing as old mega armor nobz.

Now if you brought an old 3 wolf chariot and based it appropriately how it came... then you'd be at a disadvantage compared to the new model... just like the new MANZ and new skarsnik are disadvantageous over the old models...

So if someone wants to use the old one with old base... Not sure why anyone would object.

I think the argument behind a "three wolf chariot" and a wolf chariot is really pedantic. I think it's crystal clear that is a chariot with a 3rd wolf added, which is aslo an entry in our army book.

I understand the RAW position. I just think we are overthinking it.. To me it seems like GW spelled it out... chariots with 4 steeds are 100 wide, (settra), with 3 steeds 75 wide (grom and old wolf chariots) and 2 steeds are 50 wide... Seems like something they might leave to inference, which isn't a good idea in a rules set like we have but... Ya know.

RAW I still play it 50, but with a grimace on my face. Just like when I have to back my NG up 8" after a Hand of Gork move..

 Ehsteve wrote:


So if you obtained that old model, you would have a 75mm frontage. If you bought the new one, you would use the current chariot base. Your opponent cannot force you to change the bases of their models.

A new release of a model immediately invalids the old model. There is only one Goblin Wolf Chariot entry in the book and there's a model for it. Using a giant with a smaller than current base is illegal.