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 TheKbob wrote:
You sound incredibly new to the hobby from your tone. Everyone is happy, bright-eyed and wonderous when they start playing GW games.

That's not the case here - started playing GW's games in 2000 with some breaks and I've seen the transformation.

 TheKbob wrote:
Once you realize how bad they treat their customers for the price you pay, you begin to stop thinking of those other guys as just "complainers". They suddenly become the guys stating facts they have seen as the company has changed over the past two years. I am not a grizzled vet, only in the hobby by 4 years, but I can easily realize that the changes they have made of recent are bad and they are worse than anything past.

Maybe the part with treating the customers wrong is not as prominent here given that the hobby is very expensive in Poland and small price changes over the time along with sculpt quality changing drastically for better, so most people I know tend to think that the price increases are somewhat okay, even if a wee bit too high. But you can see most the positive changes yourself - models coming out in 6th ed have much, much better details and most often are more well-thought while the hardcover codices are heavens better in terms of quality, the paper used and durability than the previous softies. Of course don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that GW is good and that actual prices and marketing policies are all fair to the customer, but it's not like they're the devil incarnate. Every company can make some mistakes and so far I'm seeing a positive change recently with better codex works (AM codex is great - balanced and with many options) and they seem to be going back to making painting tutorials(on YT channel) for free, even if it's just a way to advertise newest models(like it's a bad thing, trying to sell your own producs). Next step would be bringing back the good ol' White Dwarf and dropping prices a little, but to think they'd do that overnight is silly at best, you have to agree.

To sum things up - GW has done some wrong things, they're still making mistakes but they seem to be getting better. On plus side is that they can't keep the current policy for too long or they will have to face mass leaving and they're not stupid enough to kill themselves like that, no matter how stupid some people try to make them seem. They're a big company, if they wanted, they could easily turn this all 180' and make 40k a paradise. They're most likely trying to figure out where the sweet supply-demand spot lies after the worldwide financial crisis.

 TheKbob wrote:
The idea that they make the best models on the market is rapidly dissappearing if you look at either wargaming competition or third party suppliers.

It's obvious that their models won't be the most gorgeous ones around given the fact that they're working with soft plastic instead of white metal which is much easier to make non-heroic, very detailed models(vel Infinity). When it comes to 3rd party suppliers - most of them sell things that are just out of GW's regular stock - if you expect GW to manufacture every single helmet idea for Space Marines or Imperial Guard, you're sooner or later going to see how silly that idea is and as to prettier 3rd party models.. well, it's either gorgeous models like Scibor's that are most often used only as HQ replacements or, as it is popular now, work as cheaper although worse looking, say, crude resin Space Marines substitutes like ChapterHouse or Anvil Industry models. Also - you're comparing GW and 40k to skirmish games and manufacturers - 40k still has no competition on it's niche as no game is even remotely similar gameplay-wise. Warmachine is barely playable at the points that allow you that many models on the field, while Infinity, Malifaux and some other systems aren't suited for bigger games. Not sure if FoW is meant to play bigger battles, but then again it's not space fantasy / sci-fi, so yeah.

Even though a lot of people use competition like it was something bad for GW, remember that each game has it's niche and it was obvious that sooner or later the market will expand attracting more people. Still I haven't seen too many people outright move over to another system and ditch 40k maybe aside from some Warmachine players in Poland, but it's still a small niche here. Overall while some people, including me, might start playing Infinity, the game won't ever give me what 40k does, nor will 40k give me what Infinity is supposed to be, so in this case it's more like complementing each other in terms of their niches.

The problem with Codex: MT, was that back in 2nd edition the Necrons got exactly the same treatment, with unit entries for a half-dozen units, fluff, and even terrain articles, but in a couple of $5 White Dwarf issues. NOT a 50 dollar "codex".

 AegisGrimm wrote:
The problem with Codex: MT, was that back in 2nd edition the Necrons got exactly the same treatment, with unit entries for a half-dozen units, fluff, and even terrain articles, but in a couple of $5 White Dwarf issues. NOT a 50 dollar "codex".

Most of the complaints seem to be because the codex is overpriced more so than the actual units being bad. That's good, I guess.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:
Then we should hate Necrons. When they were introduced back in 1998 all they had was Lords, Warriors, Scarabs and Destroyers. It wasn't until 2002 that they got Pariahs, Immortals, Tomb Spiders, C'Tan, the Monolith and a real codex, and even then Necron players had to wait till 2011 for an update. If that's your idea of "lots of choices" and "proper support"...

Necrons didn't start as a codex though, they started as 2 white dwarfs. When they got their codex, they had 11 different units. 12 if you count the C'Tan as 2 separate units.

Even then, there were a lot of people complaining back then that Necrons came out toward the end of 2nd edition then didn't get expanded for several years. I myself started a small Necron army and was mildly disappointed they weren't expanded.

If the Storm Trooper codex weren't a codex but a couple of White Dwarf articles, people probably wouldn't be hating on them.

^This, so much this.

Remember WD was so good and full of content that it was well worth its price. A couple or articles in WD to give us a completely new race for free? That would be awesome. Hope they do that every month. Wow I would subscribe to WD immediately.

 Klerych wrote:

 da001 wrote:

I think that the quality has brutally dropped for most players. If the product were good enough, I think we are all willing to pay the price. I happily paid the last Forgeworld book, a 80$ monstrosity. It is awesome! I sure will pay the next. But it is not what I am finding in the "basic" game.

I'm glad that we agree, sorry if I sounded a bit too angry back then, I think it's the way I write after spending my life on the interwebz. Overall I don't think that the quality has dropped and that the fluff feels soulless. Imho people who say that about every next Codex are those bleak people who should've taken a break from 40k a long while ago to cool off a bit and think about something else, because most of the fluff sections in codices nowadays are very similar in style as years ago and the quality didn't drop in my opinion. To be honest the only thing that got on my nerves was constant repeating about "focused hot-shot lasgun fire", but hell, even Dan Abnett tends to repeat same signature sentence over and over. Given that the fluff in Codex: MT is fairly unique and not akin to any other Codex out there, I think it's doing very fine in that department.

As for other quality levels.. Well, the minis have gotten gorgeous over last few years, noone who isn't dedicated troll/hater can deny that. Especially when we're talking about plastic as people love to compare GW plastic kits to Infinity's very.. thin and delicate-looking metal models with lots of fine detail.

Overall I think 40k is not as bleak and terrible as most doom sayers tend to make it look, so I try to reason with the most hating people.

Edit: heh, heh, 69th post. Heh.

Yeah. the models have gotten gorgeous... some of them. Centurions, Dreadknights and friends say hi. It is difficult to look at a Centurion or a Taurox and claim that they are doing good models. Anyway, the average quality concerning models is high, I will happily admit that. Another thing that is quite good is the art: they have some quite good illustrators.

The fluff... sorry. No. No way. Things like the Liber Chaotica, the Index Astartes or Realm of Chaos are unthinkable now. All is full of 5 space marines going pew-pew-pew through the galaxy, with the good guys always winning and the bad guys reduced to monodimensional jokes of a character. The setting has always have a silly / childish section, but nowadays that´s the only thing we are getting. Not everything is that bad though. Forgeworld is doing great stuff, and the Tempestus thing has some good stuff here and there. But nids (particularly the dataslates), chaos SM, Grey Knights, Necrons, chaos daemons, sentinels of terra, the ultramarines movie.... wow sometimes it is really hard to stomach.

The third part of the hobby are the rules. The game. And I do not remember another time when there was such a claiming that the system is completely broken. There are house rules everywhere, full sections of the game regularly banned from tournaments for being unplayable, and lots of fan-made movements to create a new set of rules from scratch.

The fourth part is the price.

Since I am ok with house rules and I deliberately ignore most of the new fluff, I still enjoy the game so I am still in. But the majority of the customers are complaining, and with a reason.

And it is not "the style is the same": about 90% - 95% of every release is a copy paste, with the 5% - 10% new stuff being discussed here. That´s probably the reason TheKbob said you sounded "new to the hobby". Of course 90% of the setting is brilliant: the 90% that has been there since forever. That´s why new players are so happy. Wait until your favorite faction get a new Codex: you will pay twice the money for a 90% copy-paste with less units (you can buy it separately though), less options, bad written borderline unplayable rules, senseless retcons and childish new fluff sometimes instead of your favorite piece of background, and three new models, one of them is ugly as hell. When this happen to you a couple of times you probably start complaining too.

Edit: since you have been playing since 2000, just ignore this part

Virtus wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
The problem with Codex: MT, was that back in 2nd edition the Necrons got exactly the same treatment, with unit entries for a half-dozen units, fluff, and even terrain articles, but in a couple of $5 White Dwarf issues. NOT a 50 dollar "codex".

Most of the complaints seem to be because the codex is overpriced more so than the actual units being bad. That's good, I guess.

Well, the actual units are pretty thoroughly mediocre, but it applies just as much to MT and AM and you'll see such complaints in AM threads. Stormtroopers got cheaper, but their core problem of being armed with short range armor piercing nerf guns while having a nearly IG grunt statline and costing almost as much as MEQ's remains, effectively they lost weight but still aren't in shape. The Taurox likewise isn't really impressing many.

These storm troopers will work well for a small 750 point zone mortalis force so the limited choice is ok for that but these ridiculous tiny codex releases are crazy none more so than the single troop knight, which would have been a great addition to the guard codex.

 Klerych wrote:
The other thing is rolling it into IG.. see, the Scions are already in the IG codex. This book serves purposes that Tempestus could NEVER fulfill if it was in the Astra Militarum codex, such as(among others):

-Deep striking allied scoring units that can be dropped into terrain reliably. Also armed with a range of special weapons giving the player some flexibility;
-Scions as troops for people who, for once, want a fluffy list or addition to their inquisition force;
-Scions as primary detachment - don't fool yourself, giving them an ability to be a PD in IG codex would only result in crickets chirping and spider webs holding those pages shut together.

How could those things not be added to the Guard codex? All it would have taken is a HQ choice that allows you to take stormtroopers as Troops, and optinal grav chutes in their wargear entry.

See, the Codex has a particular role designated to it and it works perfect at it

Yes, but unfortunately, that role is to get people to buy another book, rather than anything that couldn't be done by including them in the Guard codex...

Now everyone saying that it could be folded into WD clearly has lost the track of how GW is handling the magazine nowadays.

No, people understand how GW is handling White Dwarf these days... that's why they're complaining about it.

I'm partially upset about MilTemp because I had a great vision of what I thought GW was going to do, and I was looking forward to it. And when they didn't do it, I was sad.

I thought they would remake or retool some of the Necromunda: Enforcers miniatures to buff up the Tempestus lineup. Something like cyber-mastiffs as fast attack, Enforcer squads as elites, etc. I also thought they might throw in a smattering of Generic Imperium-related stuff (like Assassins), and maybe add more fun fluffy stuff like bizarre experimental weapons,religious cults from Terra, Servo-Skulls flying around with guns built into them, or some new unusual support tank. If not all that, I thought maybe the MilTemp would have some stuff from the Adeptus Mechanicus (Maybe the long-forgotten Electro Priests. I loved those guys back in second edition.) Or anything, really. I expected an army.

I got three choices that are cool, but not really an army on their own. It is painfully obvious that the Tempustus are an oversight, and GW put all the effort into the new Guard codex. This in of itself isn't bad, the bad thing is that they pretended from the start that they'd be a full army. They're not, just an elites choice for an existing army. The codex is a waste.

Basically what I thought, too. It's three choices which are just excerpts from the Guard Codex, with added fluff.

 Mysterious Pants wrote:
I thought they would remake or retool some of the Necromunda: Enforcers miniatures to buff up the Tempestus lineup. Something like cyber-mastiffs as fast attack, Enforcer squads as elites, etc. I also thought they might throw in a smattering of Generic Imperium-related stuff (like Assassins), and maybe add more fun fluffy stuff like bizarre experimental weapons,religious cults from Terra, Servo-Skulls flying around with guns built into them, or some new unusual support tank. If not all that, I thought maybe the MilTemp would have some stuff from the Adeptus Mechanicus (Maybe the long-forgotten Electro Priests. I loved those guys back in second edition.) Or anything, really. I expected an army.

You really expected that given that we knew very soon after the first rumours that an IG codex was coming out in the same month as the storm trooper dex? You sure were expecting a lot

Think the point is that it should have been a white dwarf article or a $10 Dataslate, at best.

Its minimum effort and maximum price. Which might as well be GWs company line now.

People don't hate MT because of its rules they hate it because it is a blatant money grab from GW that could have easily been included in the codex. It also represents a scary new trend for GW of taking units already in the codex away and then reselling them. That's even worse than what EA does and I'm not even sure if it's legal. (But I am not familiar with British Law)

 da001 wrote:

Yeah. the models have gotten gorgeous... some of them. Centurions, Dreadknights and friends say hi. It is difficult to look at a Centurion or a Taurox and claim that they are doing good models.

I guess my opinion is pretty unpopular with me thinking that the Taurox is okay aside from the quad track? ;X I mean.. look at the british Humber Pig. While some people might hate it, it looks pretty much like 40kified version of the Pig as it was intended to. As for Centurions.. sure, they have design flaws, but some people I know actually like them and I know that if I did some very minor conversions, they'd look just fine to me. Dreadknight.. I guess it's a hit or miss for most people - the kid carry harness for the terminator is ridiculous, but I know people who like it for their own, obscure reasons - the model is not bad as a whole, it's just the way of carrying the pilot that looks like bad Matrix influence.

 da001 wrote:
The fluff... sorry. No. No way. Things like the Liber Chaotica, the Index Astartes or Realm of Chaos are unthinkable now. All is full of 5 space marines going pew-pew-pew through the galaxy, with the good guys always winning and the bad guys reduced to monodimensional jokes of a character. The setting has always have a silly / childish section, but nowadays that´s the only thing we are getting. Not everything is that bad though. Forgeworld is doing great stuff, and the Tempestus thing has some good stuff here and there. But nids (particularly the dataslates), chaos SM, Grey Knights, Necrons, chaos daemons, sentinels of terra, the ultramarines movie.... wow sometimes it is really hard to stomach.

Well, I was only considering the Codex/BRB fluff along with WDs, that abomination that was Ultramarines movie is just.. uh.

 da001 wrote:
The third part of the hobby are the rules. The game. And I do not remember another time when there was such a claiming that the system is completely broken. There are house rules everywhere, full sections of the game regularly banned from tournaments for being unplayable, and lots of fan-made movements to create a new set of rules from scratch.

Well, you can't honestly believe anyone who claims that 40k is completely broken and unplayable - I'm fairly sure that vast majority of non-tournament, Tier1(or 0) netlist WAACkers actually -do- enjoy the game and they don't nitpick on RAW just for the sake of nitpicking. 40k is still a very fun game to play even without any house ruling as long as you don't abuse the cheese like triptide+wraithknight.

 da001 wrote:
The fourth part is the price.

I made my point about this before, I mostly agree here.

So yeah.. everyone claiming that the game is unplayable, GW is the Devil himself, 40k is going to die in next few months, Astra Militarum is rubbish now, vendetta didn't need a nerf or that Serpent Field is not op is just plain silly.

I'm not going to keep on saying what I did about them being folded into IG codex - I made my point there too and screwing around with HQs that make them troops(especially without it being warlord) would be unnecessary fiddling that'd end up with the codex being priced like SM one while making every single IG player cry out to GW. Codex: MT works fine as what it was supposed to be(yeah, yeah, can't wait for more "yes, selling crap!" witty comment goodness).

I admit though that 50$ is too much for it, even if we include the two 10$ formation dataslates.

There's a discussion on the rules in the other thread, so no need to cross pollinate, but GW is charging for busted rules and not fixing them. They do fix busted models in haste should you give them a ring about your deformed melta gun or your tank missing a sprue.

I always look at models aesthetics aside. It's hard to do, but the detail does increase on GW models and they do amazing things in plastics. The new WE treemen are gorgeous. However, their pricing schemes are terrible. Quality product, premium price, sure, but these aren't literal Ferrari's. Third party recast markets do exist and they are growing because GW is pushing the price elasticity barrier quite hard.

But mainly, it's the way they are conducting business, holed up in an Ivory Tower (probably due to upper management, not the actual designers and artists) that's upsetting and bad for the community. I dislike it. I want to buy pretty models from them. I wish their game rules warranted said premium price. I can afford all of it as it stands, but the value for my dollar just doesn't exist sadly.

Really don't understand the complaining about the book, especially since GW has done that with EVERY single Supplemental Codex that has come out. I mean, all the rules and fluff found in them could have been put into every original Codex, its an argument we have heard before and its obvious its a marketing ploy. Are we really surprised that they did it again with Militarium Tempestus?

 Klerych wrote:
(...)
So yeah.. everyone claiming that the game is unplayable, GW is the Devil himself, 40k is going to die in next few months, Astra Militarum is rubbish now, vendetta didn't need a nerf or that Serpent Field is not op is just plain silly.

Well... then I am plain silly, since I think the game "as it is" is unplayable.

There are many holes in the rules and the balance is lost. But it is OK, I like House Rules. And the number of people trying to "fix" the game is high, people are trying lots of new systems, and I am enjoying testing them and trying my own.

I'm not going to keep on saying what I did about them being folded into IG codex - I made my point there too and screwing around with HQs that make them troops(especially without it being warlord) would be unnecessary fiddling that'd end up with the codex being priced like SM one while making every single IG player cry out to GW. Codex: MT works fine as what it was supposed to be(yeah, yeah, can't wait for more "yes, selling crap!" witty comment goodness).

I don´t get this. The IG Codex lost a lot of stuff. By keeping some you are saying that the price would be higher. There is no logic there. At the end, the price should follow economical laws. We are talking about quality.

This is probably an unpopular opinion, but I will gladly pay 80$ for a proper Imperial Guard Codex, Forgeworld level quality. Get a copy of a HH Forgeworld book to see what I am talking about. I will buy it without a second thought and I don´t even play the army. I am scared when I think about how much money I would pay for a proper Tyranid Codex or something about the Chaos Legions, the Sisters, the Inquisition or the Oldcrons. The previous IG Codex? I bought it, it was well worth 25$. The new Codex? No, it has less content and worse quality, it is not worth 25$, let alone more. The Tempestus 5$-worth addon? No. Way. The price elasticity barrier is broken for me.

That doesn´t mean GW is "evil". They are greedy. And since they are losing benefits, they are dumb.

I admit though that 50$ is too much for it, even if we include the two 10$ formation dataslates.

You forgot to include the large amount of 2$ illustrations, the 20$ high quality fonts, and the 200$ worth of typesetting and pagination. So I guess it could be 20000$, including everything and charging whatever you like for it.

All of it put together is worth 5$, perhaps 10$. And this is only because it is better than the average product.

 gmaleron wrote:
Really don't understand the complaining about the book, especially since GW has done that with EVERY single Supplemental Codex that has come out. I mean, all the rules and fluff found in them could have been put into every original Codex, its an argument we have heard before and its obvious its a marketing ploy. Are we really surprised that they did it again with Militarium Tempestus?

This is it really. From what I'm seeing, people are nerd-raging because:

a) the codex wasn't what they were hoping for and are now disappointed; or
b) they waited too long to buy the codex and need to wait for the second round printing/buy it second hand and are now disappointed.

 gmaleron wrote:
Really don't understand the complaining about the book, especially since GW has done that with EVERY single Supplemental Codex that has come out. I mean, all the rules and fluff found in them could have been put into every original Codex, its an argument we have heard before and its obvious its a marketing ploy. Are we really surprised that they did it again with Militarium Tempestus?

The difference is that this book was marketed as a codex, rather than as a supplement.

So people were expecting a codex, rather than a supplement.

 Barksdale wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Really don't understand the complaining about the book, especially since GW has done that with EVERY single Supplemental Codex that has come out. I mean, all the rules and fluff found in them could have been put into every original Codex, its an argument we have heard before and its obvious its a marketing ploy. Are we really surprised that they did it again with Militarium Tempestus?

This is it really. From what I'm seeing, people are nerd-raging because:

a) the codex wasn't what they were hoping for and are now disappointed; or
b) they waited too long to buy the codex and need to wait for the second round printing/buy it second hand and are now disappointed.

Well, that's not entirely true. 90% of the hate is about the price, which I do understand as it should've costed 20-30$, not up to twice as much. I guess I'm considered to be what's wrong with the community here given that I actually enjoy all MT models(even including Taurox), I enjoy my Codex, even if it's overpriced and, bash me to hell and beyond, I own two Imperial Knights and their Codex because I love the fluff and models and the prices aren't much more horrible in my country than they were earlier, so it's not that monstrous a deal. If people here could buy codices for 50zł instead of 150 and minis for 35zł, everyone would be buying the crap out of GW's stock, but oh well. Yay for our economy.

Then again I think most people whining about everything are far past the point at which they should take a short break from the hobby - they're grown far too bitter over the years, most likely soaking up all the negativity from the forums and getting tainted by it. I know that even though most will disagree that's true in most cases, simple psychology - if everyone is as negative as people here on Dakka - be it toward the rules, models, other players or Dakka members and their opinions, people sooner or later get bitter and sour, leaving them grumpy. A break would do them fine as they'd shed the bleakness, do something else that they find fun, and if they don't buy GW's products, GW will notice the drop and will try to appeal to them again, maybe bringing some positive changes.

My advice? Relax, take a break, cool off - GW will never treat any raging, hating berserker seriously, no company would as there will always be doom sayers and people who hate them for a principle. What GW needs is some financial shock and constructive, calm criticism from their devoted players if they can't stand the way it is now.

 gmaleron wrote:
Really don't understand the complaining about the book, especially since GW has done that with EVERY single Supplemental Codex that has come out. I mean, all the rules and fluff found in them could have been put into every original Codex, its an argument we have heard before and its obvious its a marketing ploy. Are we really surprised that they did it again with Militarium Tempestus?

The difference is the MT codex was released BEFORE the main codex. The other overpriced supplements were at least after the main codex had been out for a while so yo ucould play it and see if you'd like to expand upon the faction in that specific direction.

This "codex" was released before anybody got a look at the new IG and was even in limited print FFS.

OBVIOUS CASH-GRAB IS OBVIOUS.

Hopefully GW crashes soon and gets sold to a company that knows how to run one.

 Barksdale wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Really don't understand the complaining about the book, especially since GW has done that with EVERY single Supplemental Codex that has come out. I mean, all the rules and fluff found in them could have been put into every original Codex, its an argument we have heard before and its obvious its a marketing ploy. Are we really surprised that they did it again with Militarium Tempestus?

This is it really. From what I'm seeing, people are nerd-raging because:

a) the codex wasn't what they were hoping for and are now disappointed; or
b) they waited too long to buy the codex and need to wait for the second round printing/buy it second hand and are now disappointed.

May I ask you where are you looking? Most people are complaining about the price, and the change in policies: it is a one-unit really expensive codex. I have found only one person saying what you said everyone said. Reminds me of the "people whine about Chaos & Nids because power-level" constant whining.


Anyway, I don´t see the Militarum Tempestus getting as much hate as, say, the IG/AM Codex itself. It is a completely optional minicodex focusing on a single unit, people didn´t expect much and disappointment was low. Actually, the background is better than the average, or at least I enjoyed it more. There is no hate and no nerd-rage.

I think we are taking this off-topic into a GW-prices battle, with people whining, people whining about the whining, people whining about the whining about the whining, and so on. It is tedious.

The OP was talking about the strength of the Codex from a competitive point of view, taken as the main army: "It seems to be that the player base as a whole has written off the MT as a strong primary army, largely due to the fact that their codex lacks plenty of options. Is the lack of flexibility really such a big deal? After all, competitive lists these days just seem to be spamming a few choice units and calling it good."

Vaktathi and gmaleron gave different answers to the question. I think Vaktathi is right, but I will test gmaleron´s solution on Vassal.

Vaktathi:

gmaleron:

 da001 wrote:

 Barksdale wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Really don't understand the complaining about the book, especially since GW has done that with EVERY single Supplemental Codex that has come out. I mean, all the rules and fluff found in them could have been put into every original Codex, its an argument we have heard before and its obvious its a marketing ploy. Are we really surprised that they did it again with Militarium Tempestus?

This is it really. From what I'm seeing, people are nerd-raging because:

a) the codex wasn't what they were hoping for and are now disappointed; or
b) they waited too long to buy the codex and need to wait for the second round printing/buy it second hand and are now disappointed.

May I ask you where are you looking? Most people are complaining about the price, and the change in policies: it is a one-unit really expensive codex. I have found only one person saying what you said everyone said. Reminds me of the "people whine about Chaos & Nids because power-level" constant whining.

People are always complaining about the price, whether it's the MT codex, the new scions kit, or ANYTHING. I suppose that I just tune it out at this point, as I don't really see it as valid. It's a niche hobby, what do peope expect from gw?

If people keep complaining about the prices, I would think that would suggest that what they expect is lower prices...

 Barksdale wrote:

 da001 wrote:

 Barksdale wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Really don't understand the complaining about the book, especially since GW has done that with EVERY single Supplemental Codex that has come out. I mean, all the rules and fluff found in them could have been put into every original Codex, its an argument we have heard before and its obvious its a marketing ploy. Are we really surprised that they did it again with Militarium Tempestus?

This is it really. From what I'm seeing, people are nerd-raging because:

a) the codex wasn't what they were hoping for and are now disappointed; or
b) they waited too long to buy the codex and need to wait for the second round printing/buy it second hand and are now disappointed.

May I ask you where are you looking? Most people are complaining about the price, and the change in policies: it is a one-unit really expensive codex. I have found only one person saying what you said everyone said. Reminds me of the "people whine about Chaos & Nids because power-level" constant whining.

People are always complaining about the price, whether it's the MT codex, the new scions kit, or ANYTHING. I suppose that I just tune it out at this point, as I don't really see it as valid. It's a niche hobby, what do peope expect from gw?

There's prices, and then there's prices. For a 10man unit of Scions, it costs more than a 10man unit of Forgeworld Death Korps Grenadiers, and nearly twice as much as the old metal Kasrkins, much like the repackaging of Dire Avengers doubled their price. The MT codex has a significantly lower page count, unit array, and options list than any other codex (which are already half the size of most other hardback tabletop gaming books and just as expensive) Those are pretty valid complaints.

They used to do cheap supplements with tons of gaming material in them. One I remember easily because I had it was in 3rd edition, where you had Codex:Space Marines, and then the Space Wolves supplement, which was only ten dollars compared to the $25 of the Space Marine codex, and contained over a dozen unit entries on top of all the extra stuff.

The Armageddon and Eye of Terror supplements each had material for four different armies in them, and were each cheaper than a normal codex.

It was even cheaper than that, core codex books didn't hit $25 until 5E, they were still $20 in 4E.

Now they're $50

 Barksdale wrote:
(...)
People are always complaining about the price, whether it's the MT codex, the new scions kit, or ANYTHING. I suppose that I just tune it out at this point, as I don't really see it as valid. It's a niche hobby, what do peope expect from gw?

I was going to answer you talking about "how a one-unit Codex released right before the main Codex it is supposed to expand will destroy everything that is noble and good on Earth", but then I realised I was doing the same thing over and over again. I don´t even think this Codex is getting that much hate... And the OP wasn´t even talking about that. The question was about how to play the Codex.

Anyway, the Codex is a herald of economic destruction of formerly unseen proportions. I wonder what is going to happen to the Orks....

 da001 wrote:
I don´t even think this Codex is getting that much hate... And the OP wasn´t even talking about that.

Problem is that most people wind up on the hate and start spewing any random arguments, sometimes even silly. You know that satirical capitalism comic strip with every next person repeating the words twists them so "bye" turns into "buy"? Here it's similar. It went from "Oh, it's 50$!" through "50$ for a small codex!" and "50$ for three unit entries minicodex!" into "Only 3 unit entries!" and ended up with "Oh my God, it sucks, only 2(sic!) unit entries that suck! GW sucks! World sucks! The end is nigh!". It's like that in almost every C:MT bashing thread as the only real valid point is that it's overpriced for a minidex and it has very few options, that's all.

 da001 wrote:
The question was about how to play the Codex.

It definetely is playable, especially with the formations that give great bonuses and let you fiddle with the FOC to expand above the 6troop limit, which is logical in a codex that's supposed to focus on dropping infantry from the sky or driving bunches of spec-ops doods in 40kified Humber Pigs. When you'll be vassalling them, make sure to try different tactics before you draw conclusions based on the performance because, as you can see, the army plays very different than most armies.

 da001 wrote:
Anyway, the Codex is a herald of economic destruction of formerly unseen proportions. I wonder what is going to happen to the Orks....

It'll be Codex: Boyz at 50$ with only boyz and warboss in it and every other unit will be added later in form of a 15$ dataslate.

 Klerych wrote:

 da001 wrote:
I don´t even think this Codex is getting that much hate... And the OP wasn´t even talking about that.

Problem is that most people wind up on the hate and start spewing any random arguments, sometimes even silly. You know that satirical capitalism comic strip with every next person repeating the words twists them so "bye" turns into "buy"? Here it's similar. It went from "Oh, it's 50$!" through "50$ for a small codex!" and "50$ for three unit entries minicodex!" into "Only 3 unit entries!" and ended up with "Oh my God, it sucks, only 2(sic!) unit entries that suck! GW sucks! World sucks! The end is nigh!". It's like that in almost every C:MT bashing thread as the only real valid point is that it's overpriced for a minidex and it has very few options, that's all.

Sure, the price policy is a soft point for a lot of people and we get carried on...

And the MT is actually better than the average stuff they are publishing nowadays. Like you said, price and lack of options, that´s all.

 da001 wrote:
The question was about how to play the Codex.

It definetely is playable, especially with the formations that give great bonuses and let you fiddle with the FOC to expand above the 6troop limit, which is logical in a codex that's supposed to focus on dropping infantry from the sky or driving bunches of spec-ops doods in 40kified Humber Pigs. When you'll be vassalling them, make sure to try different tactics before you draw conclusions based on the performance because, as you can see, the army plays very different than most armies.

I don´t feel... comfortable with such a lack of options. It is like my troops are naked and without support. I think it works better as an ally. Anyway, I am giving it a try as a stand-alone army to see what happens

 da001 wrote:
Anyway, the Codex is a herald of economic destruction of formerly unseen proportions. I wonder what is going to happen to the Orks....

It'll be Codex: Boyz at 50$ with only boyz and warboss in it and every other unit will be added later in form of a 15$ dataslate.

Believe it or not, I think constant complains everywhere may stop that.

Sure, senseless hate is ignored, but I don´t think everyone in GW feel ignoring such a massive (yet negative) feedback is a good idea. Actually, they hired some new people specifically to deal with customers´ feedback.

Dreaming is cheap.... waking up is usually quite expensive though