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Does the strength/AP bonus apply only on a turn when the wielding model charges, or does it also apply when the enemy charges the wielding model?

Thanks.

Power Weapons, page 61, right under the stat blocks.

Only applies when the wielding model charges, doesn't apply when they get charged.

The wording is ambiguous. "...only used on a turn in which a model charges..."

It's fairly obvious that "a model" is supposed to mean "the wielder". Otherwise you'd use the better profile on any turn that any model on the table charged anything. It's written incredibly poorly, but the accepted interpretation is that you use the first values on the turn that the wielder charges.

Fair enough. A guy I was versing said that realistically (god forbid) in reality the bonus would apply when charged (momentum and stuff). I let him swing that and was fine with it, I just wanted the communities opinion and views.

I was just about to make a thread about power lances actually, but I ctrl+f'd the recent threads page and saw this so maybe now that the rules are clear I can just ask this question:

Why are power lances (for CSM at least) bad again?

I run power lances on my Khorne champs and they wreck face every time, the champion pretty much always kills his opponent (provided they are >I4) because with IoW he's charging at STR 6 AP3 with 5 attacks. Whether he survives or not is a different story, but the popular power sword isn't really going to help with that.

I find the power sword to be pretty much irrelevant, because:

1) I'm typically the one doing the charging. The types of units that I bother attacking with marine assaults aren't too keen on charging me.
2) The power sword being AP3 on the second round of a challenge/CC doesn't matter, because there shouldn't be a second round of a challenge with a CC champion. In a challenge with a Khorne champ, somebody is going to die, because marine champs don't have much survivability, so since the first round of combat is all that matters, it's best to take the weapon that is strongest during that first round. If your opponent declines, then that just means your champ can unleash his rage on the unit and you can merrily grind his character and squad with massed attacks. There shouldn't be a whole lot left to threaten you in the second round of CC in that case anyway.

Zultan, I did some math a while back as I had this exact same question, and I found the shred on a LC is better at getting wounds through than the +1 str of a PLance even with the extra attack. You only need one wound to stick most of the time anyways. And if you do get counter-charged, instead of an awesome lance, you have a chainaxe. Whereas with a LC, you are just as killy.

The exception to LC trumping Power Lance is in a xenos army (no LC), or in a unit that has psychic support (usually also xenos. Hmm. I sense a pattern). It's funny. Lances seem to be the best overall choice as an all rounder weapon, and probably something you'd take to a 'whoever unpacks first' game, but are the least taken.

Read this.

There is no such thing as an all-rounder Power weapon. This is intentional.

While a Power axe is the most definitive in most situations, it is slower than any of the other weapons.
While a Power sword is reasonably fast and reasonably definitive, you're not getting any actual bonuses against Sv2+ and you're arguably not going to benefit from I4 as everything with a lower Initiative value will either be Sv 4+ or worse, or Sv 2+. There are very few Sv3+ dudes who have an Init lower than 4, and any of those are not going to harm you in close combat. Against Xenos, you may take away their armour, but your speed bonus is wasted because they're faster than you.
While a Power Maul is as fast as a Power sword, it is not as good at penetrating Sv3+. It is, however, better against every form of 2+ save in the game, outperforming a sword at any armour save bar 3+.
Finally, the power lance. You sorta get the speed of a power weapon with the strength bonus of the axe and the potential penetrating power of a sword. Y'know how, in warhammer class, we were taught not to mix roles with our weapons? Well, the power lance is a mixed role weapon and usually not very useful. Off the charge, it is not even close to effective, being far surpassed by every other class of power weapon.

The best All rounder is the Power Maul. At +2 S and AP4, you'll be removing any normal troop choices armour save, and you'll have a decent strength to knock tanks around. Also, you insta-gib any T3 model that comes along.
The power maul is not as definitive as an axe, but it lands a wound more often than a sword or power lance, making it the best choice if you need to strike faster than init 1 with your attacks, but still want some AP bonuses.

40k is all about making your mathematical odds more even and consistent, and you get that easiest with an axe, but you get the most versatile weapon out of a power maul.

Fair enough. I was making a generalisation, and simply a personal opinion. I have always favoured lances (I play Eldar, and verse SM almost exclusively). Good chance of getting the charge, Low S, high I. It worked for me. Units of DA shot up units and then charge to finish off stragglers. I understand that it's not normally that great (hence why no one takes them), but sometimes they simply are the best tool for the job. And yes, I get that they are trying to force us to think when we take options. It just seems like there is little love for the lance. It is very much a niche weapon, and the others are generally better.

 cardboardcrackhead wrote:
Zultan, I did some math a while back as I had this exact same question, and I found the shred on a LC is better at getting wounds through than the +1 str of a PLance even with the extra attack. You only need one wound to stick most of the time anyways. And if you do get counter-charged, instead of an awesome lance, you have a chainaxe. Whereas with a LC, you are just as killy.

Well maybe there's something I'm missing here since I suck at math and rely on the MathHammer40k website calculator to crunch numbers, but here's what the calculator gives me:

Lightning Claw vs MEQ (assuming a +1 STR from Icon of Wrath):
STR:5 AP:3 ATTACKS:4 NEED TO HIT:4 HITS:2 FINAL UNSAVED WOUNDS AT T4 WITH REROLLS TO WOUND: 1.778

Power Lance vs MEQ (assuming +1 STR from Icon of Wrath):
STR:6 AP:3 ATTACKS:5 NEED TO HIT:4 HITS:2.5 FINAL UNSAVED WOUNDS AT T4: 2.083

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Read this.

There is no such thing as an all-rounder Power weapon. This is intentional.

While a Power axe is the most definitive in most situations, it is slower than any of the other weapons.
While a Power sword is reasonably fast and reasonably definitive, you're not getting any actual bonuses against Sv2+ and you're arguably not going to benefit from I4 as everything with a lower Initiative value will either be Sv 4+ or worse, or Sv 2+. There are very few Sv3+ dudes who have an Init lower than 4, and any of those are not going to harm you in close combat. Against Xenos, you may take away their armour, but your speed bonus is wasted because they're faster than you.
While a Power Maul is as fast as a Power sword, it is not as good at penetrating Sv3+. It is, however, better against every form of 2+ save in the game, outperforming a sword at any armour save bar 3+.
Finally, the power lance. You sorta get the speed of a power weapon with the strength bonus of the axe and the potential penetrating power of a sword. Y'know how, in warhammer class, we were taught not to mix roles with our weapons? Well, the power lance is a mixed role weapon and usually not very useful. Off the charge, it is not even close to effective, being far surpassed by every other class of power weapon.

The best All rounder is the Power Maul. At +2 S and AP4, you'll be removing any normal troop choices armour save, and you'll have a decent strength to knock tanks around. Also, you insta-gib any T3 model that comes along.
The power maul is not as definitive as an axe, but it lands a wound more often than a sword or power lance, making it the best choice if you need to strike faster than init 1 with your attacks, but still want some AP bonuses.

40k is all about making your mathematical odds more even and consistent, and you get that easiest with an axe, but you get the most versatile weapon out of a power maul.

I see where you're coming from here, but I don't use my Khorne marines as all arounders. I use them to specifically punk other marines, ork boyz, etc, and target the real CC threats with my dakka. Granted, taking assault marines is suboptimal, but I don't really play competitive, because if did I wouldn't be taking units that can take power lances anyway.

You need to look at the rounds other than 1st turn charge to get a full understanding of the probabilities. I would also recommend looking at the range of toughness values that crop up in your local metagame before declaring one to be the best.

I've still to see any evidence that a frost weapon is better than a lightning claw despite being told it for ages.

So we're now plain 'You Make Da Call' in regards to power weapon effectiveness?

Lances are better only on the charge.

So obviously you get way more use out of them on units that charge alot.



Bikers with hit and run come to mind.

Ipersonaly Love the Lance.
My prymary use of one is with my BA Command Squad. All are Jump, 3x Lighting Claws and 3x Power Fist expept for the Cmap, he has the Power Lance
Capt with Jump Pack, LC/PF.
Usualy I use my Chapion with the Lance to inatiate the Challange ves anything but 2+ Saves [I usualy let others deal with the,]. The Paired Lighting Claws usalay take out the rest of the Unit.
Isualy he wins, but if he does not he is usualy dewad leaving my Capt to deal with the HQ.

I do wish they also gave I+1, they they would be great.

So... we seem to be done with the actual rules issue here...