Is the problem with 40k...

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**StarTrotter**

Peregrine wrote:
Zweischneid wrote:
If you consider the goal of making people talk to each other stupid, I suppose it is.

Yes, it's absolutely ing stupid. You know why? Because it doesn't encourage meaningful talk. Having to say "hey, GW hasn't FAQed my broken army yet, can we use the obvious fix" doesn't in any way lead to a discussion about what kind of game each player wants, the fluff of their armies and how to represent it with special mission rules, what level of list-building optimization will lead to a fair game, etc. It just means that every time that Legion of the Damned player starts a game they get a little more annoyed about GW's lack of concern for making a quality product.

I have to admit that it might make the game slightly more difficult to pick up for people with antisocial personality disorder.

And for anyone who just wants to take their game out of the box and start playing. The fact that you have to have a pre-game discussion about how to fix the game, which implies being dedicated enough to learn about how the game is broken and how you want it to work, is a major barrier to entry for new players and a compelling reason to just play some other game that can be played right out of the box. When I have some friends over for board game night we don't negotiate about how we want to play the game, we get out a game, pass around the rules for anyone who hasn't played it before, and start playing.

Zwei do you even know what antisocial means? No offense but this is just a pet peeve of mine. Antisocial isn't being shy. Antisocial individuals are frequently criminals from con artists to murderers. They are the guys that can act friendly and then push you down the staircase whilst smiling madly.

**Deadnight**

Zweischneid wrote:

A curious observation for somebody in it for 6 years. Most "dakka-ites" who played not just six years ago, but only 2 or 3 years ago, complained about the exact inverse, that Blood Angels and Grey Knights are allegedly "overpowered" and armies like Tau, Eldar or Daemons serve no no purpose, are not played by anybody, languishing on the shelf.

But if that is your experience, it just proves that all those years of whining about Grey Knights = Overpowered were now a universally shared experience.

?

Your observation skills are pretty dire if that's what you see.

Grey knights were overpowered in fifth. Severely. And tau and eldar were left on a lot of shelves, tau especially.

Then Sixth edition happened. Gw made arbitrary changes. Some things got invalidated and nerfed. Others were broken in turn. It's what happens when gw release new editions. Saying it's not a universally shared experience is a blatant falsehood, and absolute cop out which fails to recognise historical data. In fifth edition, grey knights literally broke the game. It was a stupidly ott codex. It ruined it for many. Back in fourth it was iron warriors. In third it was eldar and blood angels. In sixth it's tau and eldar.

As opposed to, you know, all codices being valid?

A Town Called Malus wrote:

So GW is discriminating against people on the Autistic spectrum because of their poor rules? How is discriminating against a group which seems (based on the number of members on dakka who are diagnosed at some level of Autism) to be drawn to these types of games good?

Why can't people who find it difficult enough to interact with others go into a store and enjoy a game they like without first having to sit down and work through all the poorly written rules. People quite high on the autism spectrum would also find it difficult to deviate from the written rules they've learned, so that makes it doubly bad.

How dare you! Gw are perfect. Unbalanced games are the best. Clearly not being able to communicate means they're simply not good enough fir this hobby and should be playing some other game.

Or something.

(By the way, that's sarcasm, and it's not directed at you malus

)

**Zweischneid**

StarTrotter wrote:

Zwei do you even know what antisocial means? No offense but this is just a pet peeve of mine. Antisocial isn't being shy. Antisocial individuals are frequently criminals from con artists to murderers. They are the guys that can act friendly and then push you down the staircase whilst smiling madly.

Hey. I tried my best to find some kind of group of people who could make a some sort of credible claim that 40K may indeed be objectively inferior for their needs in some minor way, rather than only subjectively.

I can't vouch for whether that will hold up to closer scrutiny. Probably not. More likely, it'll be a question of subjective taste for them as well, just like it is for all the rest of humanity.

**Azreal13**

So, the answer to the question asked, rather than the one he answered, is, apparently, no.

**Zweischneid**

A Town Called Malus wrote:

Also, as another user said, the term is not antisocial personality disorder, unless you're talking about people who could also be diagnosed as Psychopaths or Sociopaths (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder)

Yes. Watching some re-runs of Dexter atm....

**Kilkrazy**

I have come to the conclusion that the key problem with 40K is people telling me that the rancid smell of piss on my chips is a high quality exotic vinegar from Games Workshop.

**StarTrotter**

Zweischneid wrote:
StarTrotter wrote:

Zwei do you even know what antisocial means? No offense but this is just a pet peeve of mine. Antisocial isn't being shy. Antisocial individuals are frequently criminals from con artists to murderers. They are the guys that can act friendly and then push you down the staircase whilst smiling madly.

Hey. I tried my best to find some kind of group of people who could make a some sort of credible claim that 40K may indeed be objectively inferior for their needs in some minor way, rather than only subjectively.

I can't vouch for whether that will hold up to closer scrutiny. Probably not. More likely, it'll be a question of subjective taste for them as well, just like it is for all the rest of humanity.

Being antisocial really has nothing to do with it pushing them away though. It really is just a pet peeve of mine because people tend to say antisocial when they mean introverted or shy and antisocial behavior is actually really dangerous. Also, it's not really trying your best. If you look it up even Wikipedia has the right description.

People it could screw over.... Shy people, individuals with anxiety problems, and autistic people. If you want you could also impede upon the chances for two players to have a match and could dissuade individuals with little time to really play.

**A Town Called Malus**

StarTrotter wrote:
Zweischneid wrote:
StarTrotter wrote:

Zwei do you even know what antisocial means? No offense but this is just a pet peeve of mine. Antisocial isn't being shy. Antisocial individuals are frequently criminals from con artists to murderers. They are the guys that can act friendly and then push you down the staircase whilst smiling madly.

Hey. I tried my best to find some kind of group of people who could make a some sort of credible claim that 40K may indeed be objectively inferior for their needs in some minor way, rather than only subjectively.

I can't vouch for whether that will hold up to closer scrutiny. Probably not. More likely, it'll be a question of subjective taste for them as well, just like it is for all the rest of humanity.

Being antisocial really has nothing to do with it pushing them away though. It really is just a pet peeve of mine because people tend to say antisocial when they mean introverted or shy and antisocial behavior is actually really dangerous. Also, it's not really trying your best. If you look it up even Wikipedia has the right description.

People it could screw over.... Shy people, individuals with anxiety problems, and autistic people. If you want you could also impede upon the chances for two players to have a match and could dissuade individuals with little time to really play.

Which is, of course, all great and leads to more variety in play

**Zweischneid**

StarTrotter wrote:
Zweischneid wrote:
StarTrotter wrote:

Zwei do you even know what antisocial means? No offense but this is just a pet peeve of mine. Antisocial isn't being shy. Antisocial individuals are frequently criminals from con artists to murderers. They are the guys that can act friendly and then push you down the staircase whilst smiling madly.

Hey. I tried my best to find some kind of group of people who could make a some sort of credible claim that 40K may indeed be objectively inferior for their needs in some minor way, rather than only subjectively.

I can't vouch for whether that will hold up to closer scrutiny. Probably not. More likely, it'll be a question of subjective taste for them as well, just like it is for all the rest of humanity.

Being antisocial really has nothing to do with it pushing them away though. It really is just a pet peeve of mine because people tend to say antisocial when they mean introverted or shy and antisocial behavior is actually really dangerous. Also, it's not really trying your best. If you look it up even Wikipedia has the right description.

People it could screw over.... Shy people, individuals with anxiety problems, and autistic people. If you want you could also impede upon the chances for two players to have a match and could dissuade individuals with little time to really play.

I never said shy people., or anxious people, or autistic people.

I said antisocial personality disorder. Don't put things into my mouth that I never said.

**StarTrotter**

Zweischneid wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:

Also, as another user said, the term is not antisocial personality disorder, unless you're talking about people who could also be diagnosed as Psychopaths or Sociopaths (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder)

Yes. Watching some re-runs of Dexter atm....

Wait then why did you use antisocial if you already knew what it meant? Why then claim you tried your best? I don't really know how an antisocial individual might think but considering their habit of being con artists and the sorts... They'd probably cheat the system whenever possible and bring an optimized list to crush foes.

**Zweischneid**

StarTrotter wrote:
Zweischneid wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:

Also, as another user said, the term is not antisocial personality disorder, unless you're talking about people who could also be diagnosed as Psychopaths or Sociopaths (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder)

Yes. Watching some re-runs of Dexter atm....

Wait then why did you use antisocial if you already knew what it meant? Why then claim you tried your best? I don't really know how an antisocial individual might think but considering their habit of being con artists and the sorts... They'd probably cheat the system whenever possible and bring an optimized list to crush foes.

I didn't use antisocial.

I used antisocial personality disorder.

I think I was rather precise.

**StarTrotter**

Zweischneid wrote:
StarTrotter wrote:
Zweischneid wrote:
StarTrotter wrote:

Zwei do you even know what antisocial means? No offense but this is just a pet peeve of mine. Antisocial isn't being shy. Antisocial individuals are frequently criminals from con artists to murderers. They are the guys that can act friendly and then push you down the staircase whilst smiling madly.

Hey. I tried my best to find some kind of group of people who could make a some sort of credible claim that 40K may indeed be objectively inferior for their needs in some minor way, rather than only subjectively.

I can't vouch for whether that will hold up to closer scrutiny. Probably not. More likely, it'll be a question of subjective taste for them as well, just like it is for all the rest of humanity.

Being antisocial really has nothing to do with it pushing them away though. It really is just a pet peeve of mine because people tend to say antisocial when they mean introverted or shy and antisocial behavior is actually really dangerous. Also, it's not really trying your best. If you look it up even Wikipedia has the right description.

People it could screw over.... Shy people, individuals with anxiety problems, and autistic people. If you want you could also impede upon the chances for two players to have a match and could dissuade individuals with little time to really play.

I never said shy people., or anxious people, or autistic people.

I said antisocial personality disorder. Don't put things into my mouth that I never said.

Wait how aim putting words in your mouth? I'm saying who it might screw over. I never said you stated it. I was more correcting your assessment as I assumed you were incorrectly using that instead of shy as many do.

You said: I have to admit that it might make the game slightly more difficult to pick up for people with antisocial personality disorder.

Thing is, it might really cause no problems with them. The people it makes more difficult to play are shy people, individuals with anxiety problems, and autistic individuals. Antisocial individuals are an entirely different way to think but they'd probably to wonders in an unbalanced game.

**insaniak**

That fine line between worthwhile discussion and ridiculous? I think we've crossed it.

Time to give this one a rest for a while.