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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/28 18:21:59
Subject: Imhotek and a few Necron questions
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Thane of Dol Guldur
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rigeld2 wrote: jasper76 wrote:rigeld2 wrote:Correct. No one has asserted they are a Save.
EL does, however, save the unit.
Nope...where to start? EL only applies to individual Special Characters and Characters. RP is for units.
Incorrect. RP is for models. EL is for different models. Units contain models. When a unit is destroyed (as in SA) all models in that unit are destroyed.
Right...the codex clearly explains that when a unit is destroyed, it cannot make Reanimation Protocol rolls. Ever Living works the same way pretty much, but for 1 model and without the caveat that it won't work if the entire unit is destroyed.
Ever-Living does not in any way save the character. He just died from a Sweeping Advance.
At the very the end of the assault phase, you roll for the Ever-Living counter.
He comes back to life.
rigeld2 wrote:He's the same unit he already was, yes?
If you're technically dead, but a doctor brings you back to life, have you been saved?
Dude, just read the codex. It's all spelled out right there. You'd be cheating [i[not[/i] to take the Ever Living roll.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/28 18:23:17
Subject: Imhotek and a few Necron questions
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The Hive Mind
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I've read the codex. You've apparently not read the thread where I've corrected others on how the rule is worded.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/28 18:23:36
Subject: Imhotek and a few Necron questions
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Thane of Dol Guldur
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rigeld2 wrote: jasper76 wrote:Nope, the Cryptek would no longer be part of the scoring unit (which was just destroyed), and is not a scoring unit on his own.
This is wholly incorrect.
He has no permission to create a new unit - he's a member of the same unit he already was.
So what you're saying is, by virtue of joining a unit, the Cryptek loses his Ever Living special rule.
Please point me to where this is spelled out in the BRB or the Codex.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/28 18:26:00
Subject: Imhotek and a few Necron questions
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The Hive Mind
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jasper76 wrote:rigeld2 wrote: jasper76 wrote:Nope, the Cryptek would no longer be part of the scoring unit (which was just destroyed), and is not a scoring unit on his own.
This is wholly incorrect.
He has no permission to create a new unit - he's a member of the same unit he already was.
So what you're saying is, by virtue of joining a unit, the Cryptek loses his Ever Living special rule.
Please point me to where this is spelled out in the BRB or the Codex.
No, I've never said that. EL is a model based rule, as is RP. What leads you to believe I've said he loses EL?
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/28 18:27:39
Subject: Imhotek and a few Necron questions
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Thane of Dol Guldur
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Because Ever Living gives him the ability to reanimate at the end of the Assault Phase, and has nothing to do with whether he's a part of a unit or not.
Again, if you can point to anything that states that the Cryptek loses his Ever Living by joining a unit, I'll look at it with a very open mind.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/28 18:30:16
Subject: Imhotek and a few Necron questions
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The Hive Mind
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jasper76 wrote:Because Ever Living gives him the ability to reanimate at the end of the Assault Phase, and has nothing to do with whether he's a part of a unit or not.
...
Let's start over, because you're so far from my argument I don't even know where you're at anymore.
For one: I agree completely with the quoted statement. I'd like to also say that even as a single model, he's a unit.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/28 18:32:01
Subject: Imhotek and a few Necron questions
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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jasper76 wrote:Because Ever Living gives him the ability to reanimate at the end of the Assault Phase, and has nothing to do with whether he's a part of a unit or not.
Again, if you can point to anything that states that the Cryptek loses his Ever Living by joining a unit, I'll look at it with a very open mind.
I think you misunderstand the argument.
The rules show that for the duration of the game, the Cryptek/Lord is part of whatever unit they join (i.e Warriors, Deathmarks, etc). As such, until the entire unit, including the character, dies, the unit is in play. If you bring back the character, after the rest of the unit is dead, you are bringing back the unit.
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/28 18:33:16
Subject: Imhotek and a few Necron questions
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Thane of Dol Guldur
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Happyjew wrote: jasper76 wrote:Because Ever Living gives him the ability to reanimate at the end of the Assault Phase, and has nothing to do with whether he's a part of a unit or not.
Again, if you can point to anything that states that the Cryptek loses his Ever Living by joining a unit, I'll look at it with a very open mind.
I think you misunderstand the argument.
The rules show that for the duration of the game, the Cryptek/Lord is part of whatever unit they join (i.e Warriors, Deathmarks, etc). As such, until the entire unit, including the character, dies, the unit is in play. If you bring back the character, after the rest of the unit is dead, you are bringing back the unit.
OK...even better. An Ever-Living scoring Cryptek!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/28 18:34:29
Subject: Imhotek and a few Necron questions
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The Hive Mind
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jasper76 wrote: Happyjew wrote: jasper76 wrote:Because Ever Living gives him the ability to reanimate at the end of the Assault Phase, and has nothing to do with whether he's a part of a unit or not.
Again, if you can point to anything that states that the Cryptek loses his Ever Living by joining a unit, I'll look at it with a very open mind.
I think you misunderstand the argument.
The rules show that for the duration of the game, the Cryptek/Lord is part of whatever unit they join (i.e Warriors, Deathmarks, etc). As such, until the entire unit, including the character, dies, the unit is in play. If you bring back the character, after the rest of the unit is dead, you are bringing back the unit.
OK...even better. An Ever-Living scoring Cryptek!
Correct.
Now - if that unit is removed from play, and then placed back in play, was it saved?
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/28 18:36:20
Subject: Imhotek and a few Necron questions
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Thane of Dol Guldur
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Nope. It failed its Armor Save, and died (not kinda died, not technically died, but ACTUALLY died...removed from play as a casualty.) in the Sweeping Advance.
Ever Living brought him back to life. Since he was removed from play as a casualty, you actually HAVE to roll his Ever Living.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/28 18:37:07
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/28 18:46:54
Subject: Imhotek and a few Necron questions
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The Hive Mind
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jasper76 wrote:Nope. It failed its Armor Save, and died (not kinda died, not technically died, but ACTUALLY died...removed from play as a casualty.) in the Sweeping Advance.
SA doesn't trigger an armor save, so this statement is nonsensical.
In addition, armor saves are model based, SA destroys the unit.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/28 18:47:16
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/28 18:50:02
Subject: Imhotek and a few Necron questions
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Thane of Dol Guldur
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Yep, you're right.
My basic answer is still the same. The Cryptek actually dies in the SA. He is removed from play as a casualty. EL specifically states what must be done aftger a unit with it is removed from play as a casualty.
No saves allowed, none taken.
The Cryptek isn't "saved" in the common sense either. He died. Nothing saved him getting his head chopped off.
He then reanimated, which is a different beast entirely than "saved"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/28 18:51:27
Subject: Imhotek and a few Necron questions
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The Hive Mind
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jasper76 wrote:Yep, you're right.
My basic answer is still the same. The Cryptek actually dies in the SA. He is removed from play as a casualty. EL specifically states what must be done aftger a unit with it is removed from play as a casualty.
No saves allowed, none taken.
The Cryptek isn't "saved" in the common sense either. He died. Nothing saved him getting his head chopped off.
He then reanimated, which is a different beast entirely than "saved"
You're still looking at the model.
SA doesn't destroy models.
SA destroys units.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/28 18:53:31
Subject: Imhotek and a few Necron questions
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Thane of Dol Guldur
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Sure, I'll grant you that as well. Still doesn't change my answer.
No Saves were taken, and the unit was not saved. They're all as dead as every dead animal that ever died.
The Cryptek is then "reanimated" potentially via EL, which is different both rules-wise and English-language-wise than being "saved".
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/28 18:55:44
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/28 18:58:05
Subject: Imhotek and a few Necron questions
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The Hive Mind
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jasper76 wrote:Sure, I'll grant you that as well. Still doesn't change my answer.
No Saves were taken, and the unit was not saved. They're all as dead as every dead animal that ever died.
The Cryptek is then "reanimated" potentially via EL, which is different both rules-wise and English-language-wise than being "saved".
Was the unit saved?
If no, what do you call it when it was removed from the table and then placed back?
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/28 18:59:34
Subject: Imhotek and a few Necron questions
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Thane of Dol Guldur
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The unit was not Saved. Not by any stretch of the imagination. The unit was mowed down dead and taken off the board.
Then, those members of the unit that have EL have a chance to reanimate. So the Cryptek died, and was afterwards reanimated.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/28 19:02:04
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/28 19:00:48
Subject: Imhotek and a few Necron questions
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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Just to point something out:
By now we all (should) know that RP markers, and by extension, EL markers, are placed when a model is removed as a casualty. There is no argument on this.
However, if you read the rules for Sweeping Advance, it says the unit is removed as a casualty.
Please show where EL gives permission for a unit to be brought back. Automatically Appended Next Post: jasper76 wrote:The unit (of 1 Cryptek) was not Saved. Not by any stretch of the imagination. The unit was mowed down dead and taken off the board.
Then, the unit is Reanimated. So the Cryptek died, and was afterwards reanimated.
And, since I know others will say it anyway
So for them the battle is not over? That goes against the SA rules.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/28 19:01:31
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/28 19:05:09
Subject: Imhotek and a few Necron questions
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Thane of Dol Guldur
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Happyjew wrote:So for them the battle is not over? That goes against the SA rules.
Yep...if you die, the battle is over for you.
Of course, if something is able to reanimate your lifeless corpse, then there you have Ever Living!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/28 19:05:44
Subject: Imhotek and a few Necron questions
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The Hive Mind
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jasper76 wrote: Happyjew wrote:So for them the battle is not over? That goes against the SA rules.
Yep...if you die, the battle is over for you.
Of course, if something is able to reanimate your lifeless corpse, then there you have Ever Living!
Except SA prevents special rules...
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/28 19:06:28
Subject: Imhotek and a few Necron questions
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Thane of Dol Guldur
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Happyjew wrote:Please show where EL gives permission for a unit to be brought back.
I don't havce my book on me, but it is the Ever Living rule. It tells you exactly what to do when a model with the rule is removed from play as a casualty, and when to do it. Automatically Appended Next Post: rigeld2 wrote: jasper76 wrote: Happyjew wrote:So for them the battle is not over? That goes against the SA rules.
Yep...if you die, the battle is over for you.
Of course, if something is able to reanimate your lifeless corpse, then there you have Ever Living!
Except SA prevents special rules...
Assaults and SAs are said and done when EL goes into effect.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/28 19:07:10
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/28 19:09:35
Subject: Imhotek and a few Necron questions
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The Hive Mind
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jasper76 wrote:rigeld2 wrote: jasper76 wrote: Happyjew wrote:So for them the battle is not over? That goes against the SA rules.
Yep...if you die, the battle is over for you.
Of course, if something is able to reanimate your lifeless corpse, then there you have Ever Living!
Except SA prevents special rules...
Assaults and SAs are said and done when EL goes into effect.
Placing the marker happens when SA is resolved. That's part of the EL rule. So no, that's incorrect.
And even then it's incorrect because while SA is done resolving, it has a continuing effect ("at this stage..." means from now on).
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/28 19:11:04
Subject: Imhotek and a few Necron questions
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Thane of Dol Guldur
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No..."at this stage" does not mean "from now on". It means "at this stage".
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/28 19:11:27
Subject: Imhotek and a few Necron questions
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Irked Necron Immortal
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How is this ruled in tournaments? Has anyone here asked an officiant about it?
Seems like everything we need to know is there just not spelled out. Ever Living doesn't specify that the unit must be alive to activate. I was wrong earlier about the placed back into combat.If the unit is caught in a sweeping advance the models with RP cannot take a roll but the EL model can. Nothing in the Necron or BRB books state otherwise. Nor does the faq. Being that an EL roll is taken at the end of the phase then the EL would be placed out of combat since sweeping advances are in my opinion considered to "end" combat. It sucks this isn't totally clear but I don't see how this can be argued any other way.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/28 19:11:37
Subject: Imhotek and a few Necron questions
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The Hive Mind
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jasper76 wrote:No..."at this stage" does not mean "from now on". It means "at this stage".
Right. Until when? The next stage.
When is the next stage? Can you supply a rules quote?
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/28 19:13:34
Subject: Imhotek and a few Necron questions
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Thane of Dol Guldur
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rigeld2 wrote: jasper76 wrote:No..."at this stage" does not mean "from now on". It means "at this stage".
Right. Until when? The next stage.
When is the next stage? Can you supply a rules quote?
Well, since 40k does not even have "stages", but rather "phases", its clear to me at least that the author was using it as a common phrase, meaning "at this point"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/28 19:15:16
Subject: Imhotek and a few Necron questions
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The Hive Mind
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jasper76 wrote:rigeld2 wrote: jasper76 wrote:No..."at this stage" does not mean "from now on". It means "at this stage".
Right. Until when? The next stage.
When is the next stage? Can you supply a rules quote?
Well, since 40k does not even have "stages", but rather "phases", its clear to me at least that the author was using it as a common phrase, meaning "at this point"
Sure!
At this point, we don't need a new fridge. Can that change later? Absolutely!
This is 40k. We need a rule to tell us we need a new fridge.
So please cite the rule telling you that you can use a special rule to save the unit.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/28 19:25:33
Subject: Imhotek and a few Necron questions
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Thane of Dol Guldur
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rigeld2 wrote:So please cite the rule telling you that you can use a special rule to save the unit.
There is no such rule in the Necron codex.
There are 2 rules that talk about reanimating models that were most certainly not saved.
If we can't get over the disctinction between the words "save" and "reanimate", we won't get far.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/28 19:28:07
Subject: Imhotek and a few Necron questions
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The Hive Mind
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jasper76 wrote:rigeld2 wrote:So please cite the rule telling you that you can use a special rule to save the unit.
There is no such rule in the Necron codex.
There are 2 rules that talk about reanimating models that were most certainly not saved.
If we can't get over the disctinction between the words "save" and "reanimate", we won't get far.
If we can't get over the distinction between units and models we won't get anywhere either.
You keep making assumptions that are model based, but fall apart when applied to a unit.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/28 19:32:24
Subject: Imhotek and a few Necron questions
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Lieutenant General
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jasper76 wrote:Sure, I'll grant you that as well. Still doesn't change my answer.
No Saves were taken, and the unit was not saved. They're all as dead as every dead animal that ever died.
The Cryptek is then "reanimated" potentially via EL, which is different both rules-wise and English-language-wise than being "saved".
Save doesn't equal saving throw, especially in this case since there is not a single unit in the game that has a saving throw against Sweeping Advance. Save in this case is the plain normal English definition and is most certainly what you are doing when you return the model to the board.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/28 19:39:17
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/28 19:32:35
Subject: Imhotek and a few Necron questions
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Thane of Dol Guldur
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Uh....how so?
RP and EL don't work on entire units, they work on a model-by-model basis.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ghaz wrote: jasper76 wrote:Sure, I'll grant you that as well. Still doesn't change my answer.
No Saves were taken, and the unit was not saved. They're all as dead as every dead animal that ever died.
The Cryptek is then "reanimated" potentially via EL, which is different both rules-wise and English-language-wise than being "saved".
Save doesn't equal saving throw, especially in this case since there is not a single unit in the game that has a saving throw against Sweeping Advance. Save in this case is the plain normal English definition.
Yeah, and by the plain English definition, Necrons are not saved in any sense of the word from the SA. They are dead, dead, dead. Then, those models in the unit that have EVer Living have a chance at being reanimated.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/28 19:35:04
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