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2014/04/25 05:46:52
Subject: Interesting Quote on the Bundy Cattle Case
I could go through all of this again about my feelings on the BLM, and started a thread about the strong possibility of it preparing to grab 90,0000 acres of land in Texas from the ranchers there, but it somehow disappeared.
How is that relevant to the Bundy case? Has he started putting cattle on Federal land in Texas?
This is just another example of the BLM overstepping. It doesn't have a thing to do with Bundy, but it is a reason why I have been so vocal against their methods.
2014/04/25 05:47:44
Subject: Interesting Quote on the Bundy Cattle Case
You have simply ignored the facts of the entire case as pointed out by myself, Ouze, D-usa, Nkelsch, Lordofhats, and others time, and time, and time again. I will run them by you once again:
1. Man uses government subsidized land for grazing cattle
2. Government changes grazing lease because of tortoise
3. Man unhappy with changes takes government to court
4. Man loses
5. Man upset with losing, ignores court
6. Man told to pay fees and comply with new lease or remove cattle
7. Man disagrees and then loses... again
8. Man ignores court orders, begins stealing from government
9. Government cancels lease over nonpayment, court orders man to remove cattle
10. Man threatens violence against government in rambling written tirade
11. Government begins to remove cattle
12. Multiple people threaten government employees and contractors because they were prepared to defend themselves and the interests of the United States government against previous threats of violence
13. Government leaves before they are gunned down by militia members
14. Man claims "ancestral rights" and is wrong
15. Man claims to only recognize sovereignty of Nevada... and is wrong
16. Man goes on rambling, racist diatribe... and is wrong
17. Man defends rambling, racist diatribe with another rambling, racist diatribe... and is wrong
The bottom line is this: Bundy was wrong and has been wrong for 20 years and every time he opens his mouth he is just more wrong and he has no right to complain about armed federal LEO agents because he was the first person to threaten violence. Period.
Personally, I've always been a Sith fan. So I read this and can only enthusiastically say;
Spoiler:
Because sometimes people deserve the hate
In retrospect, I suppose I could have summed the whole thing up with this:
Live and learn, I guess!
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
2014/04/25 05:48:55
Subject: Interesting Quote on the Bundy Cattle Case
This is just another example of the BLM overstepping. It doesn't have a thing to do with Bundy, but it is a reason why I have been so vocal against their methods.
So upon being unable to explain how they've overstepped in the Bundy case, you use the good old fashion "they did bad stuff in other places" excuse. I am a fan of the classics.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/25 05:49:34
I could go through all of this again about my feelings on the BLM, and started a thread about the strong possibility of it preparing to grab 90,0000 acres of land in Texas from the ranchers there, but it somehow disappeared.
How is that relevant to the Bundy case? Has he started putting cattle on Federal land in Texas?
This is just another example of the BLM overstepping. It doesn't have a thing to do with Bundy, but it is a reason why I have been so vocal against their methods.
Except this is ZERO PROOF that the BLM is doing anything in Texas to steal land from people. None. At all.
So there's that I guess.
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
2014/04/25 05:52:40
Subject: Interesting Quote on the Bundy Cattle Case
You have simply ignored the facts of the entire case as pointed out by myself, Ouze, D-usa, Nkelsch, Lordofhats, and others time, and time, and time again. I will run them by you once again:
1. Man uses government subsidized land for grazing cattle
2. Government changes grazing lease because of tortoise
3. Man unhappy with changes takes government to court
4. Man loses
5. Man upset with losing, ignores court
6. Man told to pay fees and comply with new lease or remove cattle
7. Man disagrees and then loses... again
8. Man ignores court orders, begins stealing from government
9. Government cancels lease over nonpayment, court orders man to remove cattle
10. Man threatens violence against government in rambling written tirade
11. Government begins to remove cattle
12. Multiple people threaten government employees and contractors because they were prepared to defend themselves and the interests of the United States government against previous threats of violence 13. Government leaves before they are gunned down by militia members
14. Man claims "ancestral rights" and is wrong
15. Man claims to only recognize sovereignty of Nevada... and is wrong
16. Man goes on rambling, racist diatribe... and is wrong
17. Man defends rambling, racist diatribe with another rambling, racist diatribe... and is wrong
Scooty says Relapse didn't give a direct answer, and is wrong.
Kilkrazy wrote:
@Relapse, a very simple question, has Bundy complied with the court orders handed down by a 21 year legal process?
Not that I know of and I don't support him in this.
But I despise the heavy handed methods the BLM is using in this matter and others throughout the western United States. Why don't we hear more about them going after far more serious offenders, like those with big drug farms on public land or other offences of that nature? We know they have gakloads of equipment to come down on what they assumed was a lone, defensless rancher, in effect firing the first shot by posting snipers on people filming their cattle being rounded up, trying regulate them to "free speach or 1st ammendement zones" then beating up Bundy's son and taking him away with no word of charges or even where he was taken.
2014/04/25 05:53:03
Subject: Interesting Quote on the Bundy Cattle Case
This is just another example of the BLM overstepping. It doesn't have a thing to do with Bundy, but it is a reason why I have been so vocal against their methods.
You don't feel that a person who has violated court orders and federal law for many year deserves a heavy handed response after threatening Federal agents who tried to end the matter civilly?
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2014/04/25 05:54:47
Subject: Interesting Quote on the Bundy Cattle Case
I could go through all of this again about my feelings on the BLM, and started a thread about the strong possibility of it preparing to grab 90,0000 acres of land in Texas from the ranchers there, but it somehow disappeared.
How is that relevant to the Bundy case? Has he started putting cattle on Federal land in Texas?
This is just another example of the BLM overstepping. It doesn't have a thing to do with Bundy, but it is a reason why I have been so vocal against their methods.
Except this is ZERO PROOF that the BLM is doing anything in Texas to steal land from people. None. At all.
So there's that I guess.
Remember you said that if I get proven right. It had been reported in a reputable news source as a strong possibility, which I linked in the thread which seems seems to have been subsequently deleted for whatever reason.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/25 05:57:21
2014/04/25 05:54:49
Subject: Interesting Quote on the Bundy Cattle Case
Hordini wrote: Why do you want to hear justification for something that there is no reason to justify? Just because some people might have supported him before for something unrelated to this, doesn't mean they should support him being a racist.
I might be playing devils advocate here, but was it really intended to be racist? Ultimately he said that people traded one set of chains for another (real for financial), and there is more than a grain of truth in that statement. Admittedly he said it in such a weird "antiquated" way that it just sounds ignorant and racist to us modern folk (I assume he has been frozen in ice since the 1890s right?). However he didn't seem to be inciting ill will towards black people (well aside from assuming that they all live in the ghetto). In a weird way he actually appeared to have their best interests at heart, wanting them to have things like family, meaning in their lives, and 'more' freedom. I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he wasn't advocating slavery by pointing out that there are worse things.
2014/04/25 05:59:05
Subject: Interesting Quote on the Bundy Cattle Case
This is just another example of the BLM overstepping. It doesn't have a thing to do with Bundy, but it is a reason why I have been so vocal against their methods.
You don't feel that a person who has violated court orders and federal law for many year deserves a heavy handed response after threatening Federal agents who tried to end the matter civilly?
Do you think the innocent people of the surrounding area and Utah deserved having their livlihoods put at risk by having their herds exposed to feral cattle, being disallowed from their property, having to deal with the carrion left by the BLM, so they could get one man?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/25 06:05:00
2014/04/25 06:08:00
Subject: Interesting Quote on the Bundy Cattle Case
Their herds were already risking exposure to feral cattle because Bundy wasn't controlling his herd at all. Other ranchers are present in that area with leases from the government.
I could go through all of this again about my feelings on the BLM, and started a thread about the strong possibility of it preparing to grab 90,0000 acres of land in Texas from the ranchers there, but it somehow disappeared.
How is that relevant to the Bundy case? Has he started putting cattle on Federal land in Texas?
This is just another example of the BLM overstepping. It doesn't have a thing to do with Bundy, but it is a reason why I have been so vocal against their methods.
Except this is ZERO PROOF that the BLM is doing anything in Texas to steal land from people. None. At all.
So there's that I guess.
Remember you said that if I get proven right. It had been reported in a reputable news source as a strong possibility, which I linked in the thread which seems seems to have been subsequently deleted for whatever reason.
It was a poorly written article filled with hyperbole, baseless speculation, and spelling errors that happened to be on the Fox News website. No claim the author wrote has been verified by any source.
Again, don't let the facts get in the way of a good story!
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
2014/04/25 06:17:06
Subject: Interesting Quote on the Bundy Cattle Case
This is just another example of the BLM overstepping. It doesn't have a thing to do with Bundy, but it is a reason why I have been so vocal against their methods.
So upon being unable to explain how they've overstepped in the Bundy case, you use the good old fashion "they did bad stuff in other places" excuse. I am a fan of the classics.
I guess if you don't mind that they were breaking regulations by shipping cattle out of state where they could be mingled with other herds, possibly injuring other cattle or spreading disease, shooting cattle and leaving them to rot, attractting vermin and coyotes to infest the area and attack livestock of other ranchers, beating up women, they were just angels incapable of wrong.
2014/04/25 06:19:57
Subject: Interesting Quote on the Bundy Cattle Case
I guess if you don't mind that they were breaking regulations by shipping cattle out of state where they could be mingled with other herds, possibly injuring other cattle or spreading disease, shooting cattle and leaving them to rot, attractting vermin and coyotes to infest the area and attack livestock of other ranchers, beating up women, they were just angels incapable of wrong.
I guess if you ignore any facts, all those things might seem totally true and sure signs of evil
Here's some bunnies
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/25 06:21:31
I could go through all of this again about my feelings on the BLM, and started a thread about the strong possibility of it preparing to grab 90,0000 acres of land in Texas from the ranchers there, but it somehow disappeared.
How is that relevant to the Bundy case? Has he started putting cattle on Federal land in Texas?
This is just another example of the BLM overstepping. It doesn't have a thing to do with Bundy, but it is a reason why I have been so vocal against their methods.
Except this is ZERO PROOF that the BLM is doing anything in Texas to steal land from people. None. At all.
So there's that I guess.
Remember you said that if I get proven right. It had been reported in a reputable news source as a strong possibility, which I linked in the thread which seems seems to have been subsequently deleted for whatever reason.
It was a poorly written article filled with hyperbole, baseless speculation, and spelling errors that happened to be on the Fox News website. No claim the author wrote has been verified by any source.
Again, don't let the facts get in the way of a good story!
Wrong again, Scooty, I also posted an article from this source:
You don't feel that a person who has violated court orders and federal law for many year deserves a heavy handed response after threatening Federal agents who tried to end the matter civilly?
Do you think the innocent people of the surrounding area and Utah deserved having their livlihoods put at risk by having their herds exposed to feral cattle, being disallowed from their property, having to deal with the carrion left by the BLM, so they could get one man?
I'll take that as a no.
As LordofHats said, Bundy was already putting the herds of other ranchers at risk by letting his cattle go feral.
Also, who was prevented from accessing their property? To my knowledge the BLM only closed Federal property to access while rounding up cattle.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2014/04/25 06:26:24
Subject: Interesting Quote on the Bundy Cattle Case
I guess if you don't mind that they were breaking regulations by shipping cattle out of state where they could be mingled with other herds, possibly injuring other cattle or spreading disease, shooting cattle and leaving them to rot, attractting vermin and coyotes to infest the area and attack livestock of other ranchers, beating up women, they were just angels incapable of wrong.
I guess if you ignore any facts, all those things might seem totally true and sure signs of evil
Here's some bunnies
Are you saying they weren't beating up women, leaving cattle to rot or putting other herds at risk by trying to mix Bundy's cattle in with them through auction? Read much news?
You don't feel that a person who has violated court orders and federal law for many year deserves a heavy handed response after threatening Federal agents who tried to end the matter civilly?
Do you think the innocent people of the surrounding area and Utah deserved having their livlihoods put at risk by having their herds exposed to feral cattle, being disallowed from their property, having to deal with the carrion left by the BLM, so they could get one man?
I'll take that as a no.
As LordofHats said, Bundy was already putting the herds of other ranchers at risk by letting his cattle go feral.
Also, who was prevented from accessing their property? To my knowledge the BLM only closed Federal property to access while rounding up cattle.
Property owners could not get to their land because the BLM closed off the access to it.
I will take you non answer to my question as a no.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/25 06:28:59
2014/04/25 06:28:08
Subject: Interesting Quote on the Bundy Cattle Case
I'm saying that bunnies are adorable. And look at them. They're in cups! That's like, quadruple the cuteness.
^^^ The above statement, being most rhetoric based solely in personal opinions on the adorability of baby rabbits, is as accurate as your view of the Bundy case.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/25 06:29:03
I could go through all of this again about my feelings on the BLM, and started a thread about the strong possibility of it preparing to grab 90,0000 acres of land in Texas from the ranchers there, but it somehow disappeared.
How is that relevant to the Bundy case? Has he started putting cattle on Federal land in Texas?
This is just another example of the BLM overstepping. It doesn't have a thing to do with Bundy, but it is a reason why I have been so vocal against their methods.
Except this is ZERO PROOF that the BLM is doing anything in Texas to steal land from people. None. At all.
So there's that I guess.
Remember you said that if I get proven right. It had been reported in a reputable news source as a strong possibility, which I linked in the thread which seems seems to have been subsequently deleted for whatever reason.
It was a poorly written article filled with hyperbole, baseless speculation, and spelling errors that happened to be on the Fox News website. No claim the author wrote has been verified by any source.
Again, don't let the facts get in the way of a good story!
Wrong again, Scooty, I also posted an article from this source:
There is nothing in that article that is verifiable. It's just a bunch of quotes of people saying what the BLM "might" do and what the BLM "claims" with nothing backing it up. In case it escaped you, here is the BLMs official statement concerning the matter: "The BLM is categorically not expanding Federal holdings along the Red River."
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
2014/04/25 06:40:20
Subject: Re:Interesting Quote on the Bundy Cattle Case
Property owners could not get to their land because the BLM closed off the access to it.
I will take you non answer to my question as a no.
Was it Federal land they were not allowed to pass through? If so, then there is no issue as the local residents should have been well aware of such a possibility; especially Cliven Bundy's presence.
More importantly if someone else had to deal with carrion left by the BLM on their land, then Bundy wasn't making an effort to contain his cows to his land; threatening other herds. Cliven Bundy offended them, he put their livelihoods at risk; not the BLM.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2014/04/25 06:43:33
Subject: Re:Interesting Quote on the Bundy Cattle Case
Seaward wrote: You guys sure do take grazing fee disputes seriously.
I think it's a pool going on to see how many pages this thread will last before lock.
For myself, I see it's pointless trying to say anything to people that seemingly know jack all about farming or ranching to explain why there are the attitudes against the BLM from farmers and ranchers. Most posters on this thread think it doesn't matter if other herds could be ruined by mixing in cattle with no documents, or the vermin draw that piles of dead cattle left in the desert are.
Like trying to tell a blind man about color, I guess.
With that, I withdraw from this thread because I have better things to do.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/04/25 06:56:40
2014/04/25 07:19:25
Subject: Re:Interesting Quote on the Bundy Cattle Case
Seaward wrote: You guys sure do take grazing fee disputes seriously.
I think it's a pool going on to see how many pages this thread will last before lock.
For myself, I see it's pointless trying to say anything to people that seemingly know jack all about farming or ranching to explain why there are the attitudes against the BLM from farmers and ranchers. Most posters on this thread think it doesn't matter if other herds could be ruined by mixing in cattle with no documents, or the vermin draw that piles of dead cattle left in the desert are.
Like trying to tell a blind man about color, I guess.
With that, I withdraw from this thread because I have better things to do.
Why would farmers and ranchers dislike the government agency responsible for regulating major aspects of their business, often in ways which might impede their ability to make profit or otherwise behave in whatever manner they see fit? [deadpan]Crikey, what a conundrum, somebody call Sherlock Holmes.[/deadpan]
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
2014/04/25 08:32:43
Subject: Interesting Quote on the Bundy Cattle Case
I am quite surprised to find out what a total liar Bundy is.
I thought the virtues of the rancher life traditionally included honesty, and it turns out he is basically a fake, his claims are fakes, and he is calling for support under false pretences.
Why are the militias supporting him? Is it just that anything the Federal Government does is automatically worse than anything anyone else does?
For myself, I see it's pointless trying to say anything to people that seemingly know jack all about farming or ranching to explain why there are the attitudes against the BLM from farmers and ranchers.
I freely admit to knowing very much at all about either farming or ranching, or how mastery of either somehow makes you immune from our rule of law.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
2014/04/25 09:24:05
Subject: Re:Interesting Quote on the Bundy Cattle Case
it's pointless trying to say anything to people that seemingly know jack all about farming or ranching .
Oddly enough that's how the BLM felt with regards to discourse with Mr Bundy.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
2014/04/25 13:06:34
Subject: Re:Interesting Quote on the Bundy Cattle Case
So Bundy willingly breaks the law, lies about having claims to the land since before statehood when it turns out that his family purchased the farm long after it was federal land and didn't purchase water rights and didn't even out cattle on federal land until after the BLM was a thing, ignores court orders for 20 years, doubles down on his racist remarks, calls up militias that show up bragging about using women as human shields, and the BLM is the bad guy even though they didn't violate any rules or guidelines?
Welcome to "Whose Dakka Is It Anyway: where the truth is made up, and the facts don't matter."
You guys must really love the Mexican drug cartels, with their standing up to the federal government regarding imigration and drug enforcement and such. Truly libertarian heroes those folks are, and pure capitalists as well.
2014/04/25 13:14:08
Subject: Re:Interesting Quote on the Bundy Cattle Case
it's pointless trying to say anything to people that seemingly know jack all about farming or ranching .
Oddly enough that's how the BLM felt with regards to discourse with Mr Bundy.
I don't usually do this, but on account of this escalating so quickly...
Kilkrazy wrote: I am quite surprised to find out what a total liar Bundy is.
I thought the virtues of the rancher life traditionally included honesty, and it turns out he is basically a fake, his claims are fakes, and he is calling for support under false pretences.
Why are the militias supporting him? Is it just that anything the Federal Government does is automatically worse than anything anyone else does?
You pretty much nailed it in one, KK. A lot of these "militias" are just groups that before the 1990s and Waco/Ruby Ridge(and to a lesser extent, Timothy McVeigh) would have been best considered rednecks sitting on their porches bellyaching.
Now though with the ratcheting up of rhetoric and the founding of the Tea Party, they have been given a measure of legitimacy by Republican politicians that is disturbing.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/25 13:17:02
