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2014/04/25 18:47:39
Subject: Interesting Quote on the Bundy Cattle Case
LordofHats wrote: Or we can accept that for someone talking about consitutionallity, GM is a moron.
What Bundy and Gardner tried to do was walk into a court and say the United States doesn't own federal land because federal land is public land held in the public trust which is completely nonsense argument. The United States is the public trust and they do own the land. Their entire view of state's rights makes 0 sense even from the perspective of really conservative judges (who are the ones who decided both those cases).
Their argument boils down to the US Government doesn't own the land because it's not the US Government.
Government by the people for the people.
If the government owns the land for the people, and on behalf of the people. Then the people own the land.
Interesting thought eh
Right, but people need to pay to use the land because by using it, it means that the other people who own it cannot.
He was running cattle on it, not dumping radioactive waste.
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
2014/04/25 18:48:48
Subject: Interesting Quote on the Bundy Cattle Case
Yeah, that's what a public trust is. The US government manages that land for use. Bundy refused to abide by the laws that the government i.e. the people, established as necessary for using that land.
Of course, this just goes back to my point. Bundy failed Civics and tried to argue the US government isn't the US government.
LordofHats wrote: Or we can accept that for someone talking about consitutionallity, GM is a moron.
What Bundy and Gardner tried to do was walk into a court and say the United States doesn't own federal land because federal land is public land held in the public trust which is completely nonsense argument. The United States is the public trust and they do own the land. Their entire view of state's rights makes 0 sense even from the perspective of really conservative judges (who are the ones who decided both those cases).
Their argument boils down to the US Government doesn't own the land because it's not the US Government.
Government by the people for the people. If the government owns the land for the people, and on behalf of the people. Then the people own the land.
Interesting thought eh
Right, but people need to pay to use the land because by using it, it means that the other people who own it cannot.
He was running cattle on it, not dumping radioactive waste.
Point still stands, especially with his cattle. With his cattle on that land, other ranchers couldn't use it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/25 18:50:17
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2014/04/25 18:53:27
Subject: Re:Interesting Quote on the Bundy Cattle Case
Some Nevada Specific Histories of Federal Land Ownership from the previous document:
The Sagebrush Rebellion was a collection of efforts to force the federal
government to divest itself of federal lands. These efforts took the form of state and
local legislation, court challenges, federal administrative changes, and efforts at
federal legislation. The target was usually BLM lands, but sometimes included
national forests. These efforts failed for a number of reasons. A fundamental
obstacle was that Nevada, and other states, agreed as a condition of statehood to
disclaim forever “all right and title to the unappropriated public lands lying within
said territory, and that the same shall be and remain at the sole and entire disposition
of the United States.”42 This language was part of the enabling act creating the states
and was incorporated into their constitutions; therefore the state laws asserting title
to those federal lands appeared to contravene their own constitutions.43 At any rate,
the state laws were not enforced.44 The rebellion was more effective as a political
movement than a legislative one
On the symbolic date of July 4, 1993, Nye County (NV) took action on federal
lands, using a bulldozer to open closed roads, based on the assertion that Nevada held
title to the lands. The United States filed suit seeking a declaratory judgment that it
owned and had authority to manage the disputed lands within Nye County and that
the county resolution regarding roads and right of way was invalid. The United
States prevailed in federal court.50
2014/04/25 18:56:14
Subject: Interesting Quote on the Bundy Cattle Case
whembly wrote: There's a distinct possibility that this'll go to the SC. Not that it'll help Bundy though...
No way. Those lazy bastards love nothing more then to punt when it's controversial, unless they absolutely can't get out of it.
Lazy basterds?!??!
You.
Do.
Have.
A.
Point.
I'm trying to find if a petition has been submitted yet.
Maybe Chief Justice will find a tax somewhere in there...
I fail to see what his views on any subject other than public land and his ranch have to do with anything, other than as a smear tactic in attempt to deflect the issue.
Yeah, he could have tried to pay the fees, and reduced his herd by 90% as BLM demanded, and then he would be out of business like the 72 other ranchers who used to graze on these lands. And we wouldn’t have heard any more about him than we did about them, would we?
The point is, that’s open range that isn’t being used for anything. BLM’s only real interest in the area at all is their statutory obligation to humanely manage the wild mustangs/turtles/whathaveyous, but they don’t do that because they say they don’t have the funding (but calling up a small army is in the budget, apparently).
Cattle pose no threat to tortoises or other small creatures. They don’t harm the land. They graze... and leave some fertilizer for future grass to grow. That’s it. In effect, they cut the grass on land the government doesn’t use.
Public land does not “belong” to the government. It is OURS, and the government is supposed to managed it for our benefit, NOT to appease environmental wackos or benefit deep pocket political investors.
First they came for Bundy, and "the public" spoke up and stopped them (for now).
Then folks labelled him “racist,” and look what we're discussing now.
It ain't the use of public land or BLM's tactics anymore.
*shrug*
Par for the course?
Automatically Appended Next Post: EDIT: Just read d's last post.
That's pretty damning...
Good find!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/25 18:58:06
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2014/04/25 19:00:38
Subject: Interesting Quote on the Bundy Cattle Case
whembly wrote: There's a distinct possibility that this'll go to the SC. Not that it'll help Bundy though...
No way. Those lazy bastards love nothing more then to punt when it's controversial, unless they absolutely can't get out of it.
Lazy basterds?!??!
You.
Do.
Have.
A.
Point.
I'm trying to find if a petition has been submitted yet.
Maybe Chief Justice will find a tax somewhere in there...
I fail to see what his views on any subject other than public land and his ranch have to do with anything, other than as a smear tactic in attempt to deflect the issue.
Yeah, he could have tried to pay the fees, and reduced his herd by 90% as BLM demanded, and then he would be out of business like the 72 other ranchers who used to graze on these lands. And we wouldn’t have heard any more about him than we did about them, would we?
The point is, that’s open range that isn’t being used for anything. BLM’s only real interest in the area at all is their statutory obligation to humanely manage the wild mustangs/turtles/whathaveyous, but they don’t do that because they say they don’t have the funding (but calling up a small army is in the budget, apparently).
Cattle pose no threat to tortoises or other small creatures. They don’t harm the land. They graze... and leave some fertilizer for future grass to grow. That’s it. In effect, they cut the grass on land the government doesn’t use.
Public land does not “belong” to the government. It is OURS, and the government is supposed to managed it for our benefit, NOT to appease environmental wackos or benefit deep pocket political investors.
First they came for Bundy, and "the public" spoke up and stopped them (for now).
Then folks labelled him “racist,” and look what we're discussing now.
It ain't the use of public land or BLM's tactics anymore.
*shrug*
Par for the course?
Automatically Appended Next Post: EDIT: Just read d's last post.
That's pretty damning...
Good find!
I see words I have not seen on dakka before is the swear filter working ????
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
2014/04/25 19:03:05
Subject: Interesting Quote on the Bundy Cattle Case
whembly wrote: There's a distinct possibility that this'll go to the SC. Not that it'll help Bundy though...
No way. Those lazy bastards love nothing more then to punt when it's controversial, unless they absolutely can't get out of it.
Lazy basterds?!??!
You.
Do.
Have.
A.
Point.
I'm trying to find if a petition has been submitted yet.
Maybe Chief Justice will find a tax somewhere in there...
I fail to see what his views on any subject other than public land and his ranch have to do with anything, other than as a smear tactic in attempt to deflect the issue.
Yeah, he could have tried to pay the fees, and reduced his herd by 90% as BLM demanded, and then he would be out of business like the 72 other ranchers who used to graze on these lands. And we wouldn’t have heard any more about him than we did about them, would we?
The point is, that’s open range that isn’t being used for anything. BLM’s only real interest in the area at all is their statutory obligation to humanely manage the wild mustangs/turtles/whathaveyous, but they don’t do that because they say they don’t have the funding (but calling up a small army is in the budget, apparently).
Cattle pose no threat to tortoises or other small creatures. They don’t harm the land. They graze... and leave some fertilizer for future grass to grow. That’s it. In effect, they cut the grass on land the government doesn’t use.
Public land does not “belong” to the government. It is OURS, and the government is supposed to managed it for our benefit, NOT to appease environmental wackos or benefit deep pocket political investors.
First they came for Bundy, and "the public" spoke up and stopped them (for now).
Then folks labelled him “racist,” and look what we're discussing now.
It ain't the use of public land or BLM's tactics anymore.
*shrug*
Par for the course?
Automatically Appended Next Post: EDIT: Just read d's last post.
That's pretty damning...
Good find!
I see words I have not seen on dakka before is the swear filter working ????
What word?
o.O
PM me it... I'll fix it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/25 19:03:17
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2014/04/25 19:15:52
Subject: Interesting Quote on the Bundy Cattle Case
whembly wrote: There's a distinct possibility that this'll go to the SC. Not that it'll help Bundy though...
No way. Those lazy bastards love nothing more then to punt when it's controversial, unless they absolutely can't get out of it.
Lazy basterds?!??!
You.
Do.
Have.
A.
Point.
I'm trying to find if a petition has been submitted yet.
Maybe Chief Justice will find a tax somewhere in there...
I fail to see what his views on any subject other than public land and his ranch have to do with anything, other than as a smear tactic in attempt to deflect the issue.
Yeah, he could have tried to pay the fees, and reduced his herd by 90% as BLM demanded, and then he would be out of business like the 72 other ranchers who used to graze on these lands. And we wouldn’t have heard any more about him than we did about them, would we?
The point is, that’s open range that isn’t being used for anything. BLM’s only real interest in the area at all is their statutory obligation to humanely manage the wild mustangs/turtles/whathaveyous, but they don’t do that because they say they don’t have the funding (but calling up a small army is in the budget, apparently).
Cattle pose no threat to tortoises or other small creatures. They don’t harm the land. They graze... and leave some fertilizer for future grass to grow. That’s it. In effect, they cut the grass on land the government doesn’t use.
Public land does not “belong” to the government. It is OURS, and the government is supposed to managed it for our benefit, NOT to appease environmental wackos or benefit deep pocket political investors.
First they came for Bundy, and "the public" spoke up and stopped them (for now).
Then folks labelled him “racist,” and look what we're discussing now.
It ain't the use of public land or BLM's tactics anymore.
*shrug*
Par for the course?
Automatically Appended Next Post: EDIT: Just read d's last post.
That's pretty damning...
Good find!
I see words I have not seen on dakka before is the swear filter working ????
What word?
o.O
PM me it... I'll fix it.
Bastards, I assume.
Also people are calling him racist because he is. It's not some elaborate plot to change the subject.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/25 19:16:52
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2014/04/25 19:16:45
Subject: Re:Interesting Quote on the Bundy Cattle Case
Maybe freedom isn't enough, maybe people need a bright future to look forward too as well
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
2014/04/25 19:34:10
Subject: Interesting Quote on the Bundy Cattle Case
Well, it appears that imprisonment, slavery, rape, and abuse is preferable to a life of freedom because some old guy thinks that they should have learned to pick cotton...
2014/04/25 19:39:35
Subject: Interesting Quote on the Bundy Cattle Case
d-usa wrote: Well, it appears that imprisonment, slavery, rape, and abuse is preferable to a life of freedom because some old guy thinks that they should have learned to pick cotton...
Yup hes a bit thick.
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
2014/04/25 22:48:55
Subject: Re:Interesting Quote on the Bundy Cattle Case
d-usa wrote: Idiots like these guys do more damage to gun rights than any liberal politician could every hope to do.
Yep. Said as much in the last thread.
This is not going to be a victory for conservatives. When the dust settles they're going to come out of it with a lot of broken eggs on their faces.
I fail to see what his views on any subject other than public land and his ranch have to do with anything, other than as a smear tactic in attempt to deflect the issue.
Any attempt to set aside the fact he's a nutjob is an attempt to deflect the issue. None of this would have happened absent a crazy Nevada Rancher.
Yeah, he could have tried to pay the fees, and reduced his herd by 90% as BLM demanded, and then he would be out of business like the 72 other ranchers who used to graze on these lands. And we wouldn’t have heard any more about him than we did about them, would we?
They demanded 90% of his herd because the herd was too large under regulation and out of control.
BLM isn't putting the ranchers in Nevada out of business. Major food manufactures who have found cheaper ways than free grazing are putting them out of business (a lot of them are in China btw). Family run ranches and farms across the world are being obliterated because they can't compete. This not news.
They don’t harm the land
You might want to look up why BLM was created in the first place. Also the Dust Bowl and miniature wars between cattle barons. There's a reason open range grazing was put under regulation.
Public land does not “belong” to the government. It is OURS, and the government is supposed to managed it for our benefit, NOT to appease environmental wackos or benefit deep pocket political investors.
Read the Preamble damn it; "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
The federal government is not an alien that just popped one day and started telling all the free people what to do. The government is established by the people to protect their interests and manage the public trust. Federal lands are public lands and the United States government in our interests does own them. Those environmental wackos are US citizens too. The government isn't beholden to just the things that matter to you and me (I don't really care about turtles either, bunnies are cuter in cups). Bundy is attempting to steal public land, but because he's not the government that's a-okay I guess.
Damn schools don't teach no one nothing anymore.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/26 03:05:39
wait I miss something here What Conservatives and/or Tea Party groups sided with Bundy?
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
2014/04/26 03:31:37
Subject: Re:Interesting Quote on the Bundy Cattle Case
Thought it was the Separatist Militia groups. I haven't heard of any Conservatives or Tea Party group backing him. Under the impression it was against BLM handling the situation
U.S. Sen. Dean Heller
“What Sen. Reid may call domestic terrorists, I call patriots,”
handler Smith, a spokesman for Heller, said the congressman “completely disagrees with Mr. Bundy’s appalling and racist statements, and condemns them in the most strenuous way.”
Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott
I am deeply concerned about the notion that the Bureau of Land Management believes the federal government has the authority to swoop in and take land that has been owned and cultivated by Texas landowners for generations," Abbott wrote in a letter to the BLM this week. The letter echoed Bundy's language, as he argued his family has also owned the land for generations.
Laura Bean, Abbott's spokeswoman, told the Times that the letter “was regarding a dispute in Texas and is in no way related to the dispute in Nevada.”
He screwed the Pooch there
Nevada State Assemblywoman Michele Fiore
ayes spoke with Fiore over video, as she was attending the Bundy ranch barbecue. She stopped short of saying that she agreed with Bundy in not recognizing the authority of the federal government, but questioned the heavy handedness of the BLM. "I'm not saying I agree with Cliven Bundy, what I'm saying is, the way this was handled was really suspicious." Fiore doesn't believe Bundy owes the government $1 million in unpaid grazing fees — it's probably closer to a couple hundred thousand.
Fiore said Bundy "has said things I don’t agree with," but "we cannot let this divert our attention from the true issue of the atrocities BLM committed by harming our public land and the animals living on it.")
Lady, we run over desert tortoise's in Cali at NTC every month..in tanks and armored vehicles.
U.S. Sen. Rand Paul
Paul focused more on the policy issue. "There is a legitimate constitutional question here about whether the state should be in charge of endangered species or whether the federal government should be," Paul told Fox News earlier this week. "But I don't think name calling is going to calm this down," he added, referring to Reid's "domestic terrorists" remark.
“His remarks on race are offensive and I wholeheartedly disagree with him,” Paul said in a statement.)
U.S. Sen. Ted Cruz
Ted Cruz called the Bundy standoff the "the unfortunate and tragic culmination of the path that President Obama has set the federal government on.” He added that the reason he believed the story was "resonating" was that the Obama administration has put American liberty "under assault...we have seen our constitutional liberties eroded under the Obama administration."
Cruz's Press Secretary Catherine Frazier said of Bundy's remarks, "Those comments are completely unacceptable.”
IRS, NSA, name a few I see where he is coming from
Texas Governor Rick Perry ,
Perry gave a mild defense of the broader issues driving the Bundy standoff: "I have a problem with the federal government putting citizens in the position of having to feel like they have to use force to deal with their own government," he told Fox News.
In response to a question from CBS This Morning on the remarks, Perry said, "I don't know what he said, but the fact is Clyde (sic) Bundy is a side issue here compared to what we're looking at in the state of Texas. He is an individual. Deal with his issues as you may. "
Nice
2012 Presidential Hopeful Herman Cain
Cain sympathized with Bundy, because the government was trying to intimidate him. "The complicated nature of the law is a huge problem here, as it is when we deal with things like tax law," Cain wrote on his website last week. "That’s why I have sympathy for Mr. Bundy. His issue with the BLM reminds me of one I had 20 years ago with the IRS."
Ouch...IRS battle is a up hill fight
Thought the Tea Party peeps are "fight" against democrats and the republicans.
Though I have notice Tea Party groups are called Racist
Ted Cruz
Marco Rubio
Gov. Jindal
Ben Carson
Alan Keyes
Herman Caine
David Cohen (Freaking Samoan descent of all things I never knew that)
Must be traitors to their ethnicity
Conservatives are old angry white men
Colin Powell
Condolezza Rice
Allen West
Good thing I don't hold anything against Senate Democrats for having a former Senator of KKK ties.
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
2014/04/26 05:40:36
Subject: Interesting Quote on the Bundy Cattle Case
Hey it's not the Repubs fault that LBJ passed the Civil Rights Act. I mean, where else are the racists going to go if they cant be Democrats anymore
She stopped short of saying that she agreed with Bundy in not recognizing the authority of the federal government, but questioned the heavy handedness of the BLM. "I'm not saying I agree with Cliven Bundy, what I'm saying is, the way this was handled was really suspicious."
I just love this kind of BS. "I don't agree with him, but I don't agree with BLM enforcing the laws of the United States with a court order either." WTF does she agree with? The statement's an oxymoron. The kind of pedantic pandering that turns political discourse into nonsense statements that contradict themselves.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/26 05:47:43
I saw her on Hannity. Let's say she was "lost in the sauce" mode.
I don't care who you are, what party you are, and what manner you are. If your going to make a hard line stance. Fer Gawdsake do everyone a favor and know the issue 20 ways to Sunday
What gets me with Harry Reid making the Domestic Terrorist comment. POTUS Bush/Obama was using drone strikes to kill "American" AQ members.
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
2014/04/26 07:32:41
Subject: Interesting Quote on the Bundy Cattle Case
whembly wrote: Yeah, he could have tried to pay the fees, and reduced his herd by 90% as BLM demanded, and then he would be out of business like the 72 other ranchers who used to graze on these lands. And we wouldn’t have heard any more about him than we did about them, would we?
Well then too bad for him. You don't get to break the law just because it would hurt your business if you don't. Don't like it? Don't invest your life in a business that requires illegal activity to be profitable.
The point is, that’s open range that isn’t being used for anything.
Remind me again what the legal justification for "if I don't think you're using your property effectively enough I can come take it for myself" is?
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2014/04/26 11:25:18
Subject: Interesting Quote on the Bundy Cattle Case
The fight involves a 600,000-acre area under BLM control called Gold Butte, near the Utah border. The is the habitat of the protected desert tortoise, and the land has been off-limits for cattle since 1998.
Five years before that, when grazing was legal, Bundy stopped paying federal fees for the right. Bundy stopped paying grazing fees in 1993. He said he didn't have to because his Mormon ancestors worked the land since the 1880s, giving him rights to the land.
"We own this land," he said, not the feds. He said he is willing to pay grazing fees but only to Clark County, not BLM.
"Years ago, I used to have 52 neighboring ranchers," he said. "I'm the last man standing. How come? Because BLM regulated these people off the land and out of business."
Nevada, where various federal agencies manage or control more than 80 percent of the land, is among several Western states where ranchers have challenged federal land ownership.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/27 23:28:18
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
2014/04/27 23:35:02
Subject: Re:Interesting Quote on the Bundy Cattle Case
LordofHats wrote: Even if he was right, "I was here first" is one of the worst arguments in the book.
I was more engaged buy the remarks about 1st amendment zones. HOW IF YOU STAND HERE YOU CAN PROTEST, but if you stand there you have no rights to speak so be quiet. What a stupid concept. Also watched another video where BLM was threatening to arrest police officers. lol.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/28 00:03:49
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
2014/04/28 00:07:51
Subject: Interesting Quote on the Bundy Cattle Case
I was more engaged buy the remarks about 1st amendment zones.
1st Amendment Zones were ruled Constitutional, which shouldn't surprise anyone as the government has always had the power to limit the right to protest (hence why you usually get permits to do it).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/28 00:08:13
