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After the HH when the Traitor Legions fell back to the EoT, did the TS ever fracture as a whole after the Rubric of Ahriman (such as what happened to the World Eaters)? Or are they still united together as a Legion?

If I remember right they were still unified after the rubric but they got shattered after the Battle of the Fang.

They where small legion, add the attack by Russ, the battle of fang. There not going to be a huge legion left of veterans and marines of the heresy

 gnoise wrote:
After the HH when the Traitor Legions fell back to the EoT, did the TS ever fracture as a whole after the Rubric of Ahriman (such as what happened to the World Eaters)? Or are they still united together as a Legion?

They fractured but in an odd way. You have those dedicated to Ahriman, those dedicated to Magnus, and a small few that have left to be on their own entirely. They still all hold general ideals of unification though. Magnus has grown to be more forgiving of Ahriman, Ahriman is trying to gain knowledge and also possibly, I think, fix of the rubric problem, and other small groups are trying to gain knowledge and similar things as Ahriman but choosing to do so separately.

To answer the OP, yes they are fractured. All the survivors of the Rubric are sorcerors, and so they can be individual champions and leaders of warbands (consisting of cultists, slave followers, and Rubric marines). There are 2 main factions: those that followed Ahriman (and hence exiled from the Planet of Sorcerors), and those that still follow Magnus (and stay on the Planet of Sorcerors).

The Ahriman faction still wants to master magic and Chaos. Magnus appears to have become more resigned to being a tool of a god and believes Tzeentch has a purpose for them. The narrator bits on Tzeentch in the Codex however suggests Magnus is wrong and Tzeentch has no purpose beyond manipulating things purely for the sake of change.

The Thousand Sons didn't do a great deal during the Heresy.

After the fall of Prospero and the transportation to the planet of the sorcerers, Magnus decided to bunker down.

Magnus retreated to his tower to contemplate and sulk after his poor treatment at the hands of the Emperor via the Space Wolves.


The remaining Thousand Sons started to undergo mutations, those in charge of the various Legion companies banded together, the strongest sorcerers in each discussing the rapid mutation and devolution of the survivors and the absence of their Primarch.


A cabal of these sorcerers, led by Ahriman decided to try and halt the mutations with a powerful spell - the rubric. The spell went spectacularly well, and yet horribly wrong at the same time. Those who had psychic powers had them amplified by the spell, while those who didn't turned to dust in their suits and turned into the Rubric Marines (the automatons).

Ahriman and the other sorcerers were banished by Magnus.


These banished sorcerers fled and formed their own warbands. Some initially used the rubric marines as their own personal armies.

Ahriman went solo and joined a few warbands, hiding his true identitiy. He was hunted by other Thousand Sons sorcerers from the original cabal - some of whom wanted to try and undo the rubric and simply destroy the Rubric Marines in order to free their brothers spirits from the armour.

They failed. With a little bit of fiddling from Tzeentch, Ahriman came back with a vengeance to stop this from happening and to save the planet of the sorcerers. Ahriman took control of a fair number of the Rubric Marines, re-joined a number of the banished, fragmented forces of the Thousand Sons sorcerers and now has his own force. Ahrimans goal is to re-unite the Thousand Sons, find a cure for the Rubric and to change the fate of the Legion - saving it from destruction.


The result of this: Magnus has a large force that sits on the planet of the sorcerers - the red painted army.
Ahriman has a large force who are active - the blue painted army
There are some banished sorcerers out there who are part of neither faction - usually painted red in the original colours
There are some warbands associated with Ahriman who fight alongside other chaos forces in order to gain artefacts etc - who are blue

Wait, is it confirmed that Magnus's forces are in red? I thought that having willingly resigned himself to serving Tzeentch, he would be the one in blue/yellow Tzeentch colors. Ahriman is still rebelling against the idea of serving any Chaos god, and seems to think he is making his own destiny (and seems to be an unwitting pawn of Tzeentch).

Magnus has no reason to change his Legions colours and as such those in the literature who are the exiled (except Ahriman and those who join him) and the others still on the planet of the sorcerers retain the original colours (Red, gold with cream cloth). In the Black Library book Ahriman: Exile, it is Ahriman who chooses the Blue and Gold scheme in opposition to the original Legion scheme.

So just to be sure I understand this, the leading answer is "yes, they are currently fractured but not in a huge way like most of the other Traitor Legions", am I right?

Basically yes, if we ignore the tiny warbands, the legion is split down the middle into two factions

Of those two, it's Ahrimans Blue ones who you see on the battlefield

How often or how well does Magnus' faction interact with the other Legions? I can imagine things being easier to talk about with Ahriman's faction rather then Mangus' side. Does Magnus even have a current goal other then plotting?

 gnoise wrote:
How often or how well does Magnus' faction interact with the other Legions? I can imagine things being easier to talk about with Ahriman's faction rather then Mangus' side. Does Magnus even have a current goal other then plotting?

Magnus doesn't really do much. Granted, he's done more than most of the daemon primarchs but it was basically him attacking SW head on specifically to doom them to never have successors (which was written pretty badly). Mostly he is content to just stay on his planet with the rest of his members. If memory serves me, it is implied that Magnus is beginning to forgive Ahriman but still not entirely. Really, you won't be having Magnus' faction interacting with the other legions all that much more of a don't get close to my planet thing.

The vast majority of them still serve Magnus and a smaller minority work with Ahriman but beyond that there isn't much.

 gnoise wrote:
So just to be sure I understand this, the leading answer is "yes, they are currently fractured but not in a huge way like most of the other Traitor Legions", am I right?

Just to point it out...

The Thousand Sons are splintered in two main factions, one under Magnus and another under Arhiman. Both are constantly recruiting so their numbers are unknown (probably low, they were never a big Legion). There are also small warbands.

The Death Guard is more or less in the same situation. Two main factions, one under Mortarion, another under Typhus. With many small warbands. It is far bigger than the Thousand Sons.

The World Eaters disappeared as a Legion after their defeat in Skallathrax at the hands of the Emperor´s Children. There are lots of them though, and under a good leader they can get really big. Angron commanded 50.000 World Eaters in M38, so "fractured in warbands" should be followed with "some of them 50 times bigger than a loyalist Chapter". The "warband" word somehow may people believe they are smaller than a Chapter.

The Emperor´s Children are disbanded in many warbands. Fulgrim may be leading one of them, or he may be dead after the Slave Wars. Fabius Bile is big and can muster a big army, and he can produce gene-seed.

The Night Lords were disbanded after the Ultramarines, recently split in Chapters, defeated them on Tsagualsa. They formed countless warbands and united again in M41 under the rule of the Prophet.

The Word Bearers never split. And they are utterly loyal to their chain of command. And they kept recruiting. There are many.

The Iron Warriors split in many warbands, but most of them follow Perturabo, who stays with most of the Legion in Medrengard. Again, the bigger warbands, called Grand Companies, are most probably bigger than a Chapter.

Nobody knows about the Alpha Legion´s current state. According to imperial registers, they have been utterly destroyed... many times.

The Black Legion is not one of the original Legions. It is an army created by Abaddon from the ashes of the Sons of Horus Legion, destroyed mostly by the Emperor´s Children during the Slave Wars. It includes forces from many other sources, including the other Legions. It is far bigger than any other Legion.


So "fractured like most of the other Traitor Legions" is not much correct.

 da001 wrote:
Just to point it out...

[Explaining the current status of the Legions]

So "fractured like most of the other Traitor Legions" is not much correct.

Would have "broken up" been a better phrase? Also, the Death Guard and Night Lords situation is news to me. But I'm afraid if I ask to know more about it then the thread will go too far off topic. So unless a Mod or whomever says it's alright, I'll hold off on asking that.

 gnoise wrote:

 da001 wrote:
Just to point it out...

[Explaining the current status of the Legions]

So "fractured like most of the other Traitor Legions" is not much correct.

Would have "broken up" been a better phrase? Also, the Death Guard and Night Lords situation is news to me. But I'm afraid if I ask to know more about it then the thread will go too far off topic. So unless a Mod or whomever says it's alright, I'll hold off on asking that.

Perhaps I am wrong, but I do not see any problem. After all, your topic included "like most of the other Traitor Legions".

Also, this is something of a controversial subject lately, it keep showing in the background section.

The Death Guard part is old. Typhus thought lowly of his own Primarch, believing that people like him, Erebus or Kor Phaeron were the ones with the real power. After the Heresy, Mortarion re-created his homeworld in the Eye, and stayed there doing mostly nothing.

From Index Astartes: "With Mortarion elevated to daemonhood, his hand upon the Legion became more remote and the Death Guard became broken up through space and time into smaller units. " He is supposed to " send out fleets of Plague Ships into the Warp " and "orchestrate the Guards actions", but to all effects the Nurgle astartes armies are independent warbands. The most active of them is Typhus´ Plague Fleet. And it is quite difficult to think that Typhus would follow Mortarion´s order, so I will count this as a real "fracture" in the Legion. Close to the Magnus/Arhiman thing. The rest of the Legion technically follow Mortarion´s orders.

The Lexicanum pages on them give you most of the story and, more important, sources to know more:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Death_Guard#.U1uDT_l_vTo
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Typhus#.U1uFNvl_vTo


The Night Lords thing is quite new, and will not be accepted by many fans, since it is from a Black Library book. The book is by Aaron Dembsky Bowden, and part of the Night Lords´ trilogy... Read the books for more details.

Anyway, since we now have even GW developers claiming that the Legions do not need rules because they are fractured in small warbands no longer sharing an identity, I feel the need to point out that, according to most sources, the Legions are either at full capacity or splintered in warbands that do share an identity and, in some occasions number in the thousands. Sorry if I sounded jumpy.

Wulfmar nailed it pretty much. My own description:

You have The Prodigal Sons, which is a warband led by Ahriman made up of a fleet of mercenaries, sorcerers, and rubic marines. They go around making cults and collecting books

You have the Warband of Sekoth, which is a warband led by a chaos lord named Sekoth. Not really sure what these guys are up to.

You have the Brotherhood of Dust, which was led by Amon, and was destroyed by Ahriman almost single-handedly. Ahriman then made the Prodigal sons out of the remains of the Brotherhood of Dust.

And finally you have Magnus the Red and all his rubics and sorcerers on the Planet of Sorcerers. They mostly just sit around and cry but occasionally try to summon Magnus who is so powerful at this point that he can blow up Titans with a snap of his fingers. His summoning would probably mean the end of the Space Wolves, who have thwarted all attempts by Magnus's warband to summon Magnus.

Think of the SW legion as a straw hut at the foot of the Hoover Dam, and Magnus is the water behind the dam. The SW are doing an excellent job at plugging the holes Magnus's warband is poking in the dam.

Despite his title as Architect of Fate, I would not say Tzeentch is so much an architect designing and predicting everything and every outcome ahead of time, but instead a master improviser. Because Tzeentch does not seem to care either way who wins and just seems to like manipulating events for the sake of it, he can work with whatever the outcome is and start forming and enacting new plans whatever happens.

 da001 wrote:

The Black Legion is not one of the original Legions. It is an army created by Abaddon from the ashes of the Sons of Horus Legion, destroyed mostly by the Emperor´s Children during the Slave Wars. It includes forces from many other sources, including the other Legions. It is far bigger than any other Legion.

They're as much an original legion as the other 8, who are all 'built on the ashes of the originals'. Only difference is BL are really the only credible threat nowadays due to an equal opportunity employment policy. You overstate the achievements of the EC, a legion maybe 1/3 the size of the Sons at the outbreak of the Heresy. The legion who suffered the most from the Slave Wars was in fact the EC.

MarsNZ wrote:

 da001 wrote:

The Black Legion is not one of the original Legions. It is an army created by Abaddon from the ashes of the Sons of Horus Legion, destroyed mostly by the Emperor´s Children during the Slave Wars. It includes forces from many other sources, including the other Legions. It is far bigger than any other Legion.

They're as much an original legion as the other 8, who are all 'built on the ashes of the originals'.

I disagree.

The Black Legion get people from everywhere, so in a single warband you can find a bunch of Rubrick marines lead by a Sorcerer, some Noise marines, a recently turned squad of traitors, an Apostle preaching the word of Lorgar and so on. As a result, they lack the "distinctive theme" that defines any other Legion. You get a, say, Death Guard warband and it shares a lot of traits with another Death Guard warband. And the same goes for the rest. But you get two different BL warbands and they can be completely different from one another.

That´s the reason why the people were "wtf" when the Black Legion supplement was announced. The Black Legion is just a generic Chaos SM army, it is the only "Legion" that does not need specific rules. Because, in many senses, they are not a "Legion".

Only difference is BL are really the only credible threat nowadays due to an equal opportunity employment policy.

I disagree.

The BL are the biggest threat nowadays due to their EOEP. The rest of the Legions as well as the renegades are also threats to the Imperium. The Dominion of Fire (caused by World Eaters) is a good example of a massive Chaos threat. And they all pale in comparison with the threat that is the humble human servants of Chaos, which are countless, hiding among the loyalist. That´s the enemy within, which is far more dangerous than the CSM.

You overstate the achievements of the EC, a legion maybe 1/3 the size of the Sons at the outbreak of the Heresy.

I disagree.

In the biggest battle, the Siege of Terra, and while the rest of the Legions were fighting and suffering heavy loses, the EC got bored and dedicated their time to other stuff: " the Emperor's Children embarked upon a spree of terror and gratification amongst the helpless citizenry of Earth. Millions of defenceless civilians were slaughtered and rendered down to create endless varieties of drugs and stimulants, countless thousands more dying to provide the Legionnaires with more direct and cruder pleasure."

To a certain degree, this apply to all the Heresy. They dedicated their time to personal satisfaction, and thus they retired to the eye far stronger than the rest of the Legions. But they need slaves for their joys, so they attack the other Legions, thus triggering the Slave Wars inside the eye. As a result, they to all effects brutally defeated both the World Eaters (battle of Skalathrax) and the Sons of Horus, with Fabius taking the corpse of Horus himself for his experiments.

The legion who suffered the most from the Slave Wars was in fact the EC.

I agree.

Eventually, they were defeated and shattered as a Legion, and Fulgrim was rumored to be dead. Arguably, they are the weakest Legion right now. The Slave Wars ended with their utter defeat.

The Emperor´s Children does not have many "achievements". But they defeated two (already weakened) Legions before getting fractured. And killed Ferrus and (perhaps) Guilliman. They lived fast and got burnt fast too.

 da001 wrote:

The World Eaters disappeared as a Legion after their defeat in Skallathrax at the hands of the Emperor´s Children.

Was Skallathrax really an EC victory? I thought both legions were broken by the battle.

Fulgrim may be leading one of them, or he may be dead after the Slave Wars.

Seeing how Fulgrim is a daemon prince his death seems unlikely.

Buttons wrote:

 da001 wrote:

The World Eaters disappeared as a Legion after their defeat in Skallathrax at the hands of the Emperor´s Children.

Was Skallathrax really an EC victory? I thought both legions were broken by the battle.

The information is from Kharn´s entry:
After Kharn´s action, the World Eaters started fighting each other "...and from that day forth, the World Eaters were broken as a Legion". The battle was no doubt costy for the EC, but it doesn´t say they were broken there. They got broken at the end of the Slave Wars, but there is no information about Skalathrax being a defeat for them. It is quite clear that it was the end for the WE though.

Fulgrim may be leading one of them, or he may be dead after the Slave Wars.

Seeing how Fulgrim is a daemon prince his death seems unlikely.

Quite true, I always assume a Daemon Prince may reappear at any moment. However, a DP can die if the chaos god takes away his/her/its support, and he was rumored to be dead after the Slave Wars. Anyway, Fulgrim is missing in the eye, nobody (not even the EC) knowing where is the planet he is supposed to be living.

The entry is for Index Astartes:

if one is taking into account BL stories, Fulgrim's been retconned into becoming a daemon prince before the Siege of Terra in Angel Exterminatus.

Even without BL, I always thought it odd that Fulgrim was just rumoured to have become a daemon prince considering that he had a daemon prince model for Epic.

...regardless, even Studio Fluff now has him confirmed as a daemon prince. Abaddon met him and got his support for the 13th Black Crusade in the Black Legion supplement.


Side note on Magnus: It's stated that he looks into the Imperium, finds people of interest, and spirits them away back to the planet of sorcerors. So he does do something, although it's mostly just taking an interest in interesting people. ....kinda like Tzeentch sometimes, really.

TiamatRoar wrote:
if one is taking into account BL stories, Fulgrim's been retconned into becoming a daemon prince before the Siege of Terra in Angel Exterminatus.

Even without BL, I always thought it odd that Fulgrim was just rumoured to have become a daemon prince considering that he had a daemon prince model for Epic.

...regardless, even Studio Fluff now has him confirmed as a daemon prince. Abaddon met him and got his support for the 13th Black Crusade in the Black Legion supplement.
(...)

Hey, you are right: I forgot it. Pg 51 Black Legion: "From Fulgrim, Primarch of the Emperor's Children, the Despoiler was gifted with the favour of Slaanesh in exchange for the Pythosian psyker, offered as an unblemished vessel to contain the avatar of Fulgrim's god. Ancient hatreds were set aside as the Emperor's Children aligned themselves with the Black Legion".

It makes sense anyway that he is alive, just by being a Daemon Prince.

 da001 wrote:


The Black Legion get people from everywhere, so in a single warband you can find a bunch of Rubrick marines lead by a Sorcerer, some Noise marines, a recently turned squad of traitors, an Apostle preaching the word of Lorgar and so on. As a result, they lack the "distinctive theme" that defines any other Legion. You get a, say, Death Guard warband and it shares a lot of traits with another Death Guard warband. And the same goes for the rest. But you get two different BL warbands and they can be completely different from one another.

That´s the reason why the people were "wtf" when the Black Legion supplement was announced. The Black Legion is just a generic Chaos SM army, it is the only "Legion" that does not need specific rules. Because, in many senses, they are not a "Legion".

I disagree, their willingness to allow others to join is what defines them from the other Legions. You said so yourself. BL is the only place you'll see Noisemarines backing up Bezerkers. Then there are the other things unique to the BL, like 'unpossessing' marines for instance, or the fact that they can reproduce Bezerkers more efficiently than the WE can. I disagree that Codex: CSM represented BL. Abaddon was the single representative from BL present. This viewpoint seems to come from this annoying habit of people needing CSM to represent direct alternatives to SM, in this case, Black Legion // Ultramarines.

The BL are the biggest threat nowadays due to their EOEP. The rest of the Legions as well as the renegades are also threats to the Imperium. The Dominion of Fire (caused by World Eaters) is a good example of a massive Chaos threat. And they all pale in comparison with the threat that is the humble human servants of Chaos, which are countless, hiding among the loyalist. That´s the enemy within, which is far more dangerous than the CSM.

I agree with the underlined part. I agree Rengades are a threat. I disagree that the threat from the dominion of fire (a single instance where a single legion did anything since 30K), or worse, random Renegade chapters like the Red Cosairs (who are glorified pirates) remotely compares to the Black Crusades.

To a certain degree, this apply to all the Heresy. They dedicated their time to personal satisfaction, and thus they retired to the eye far stronger than the rest of the Legions. But they need slaves for their joys, so they attack the other Legions, thus triggering the Slave Wars inside the eye. As a result, they to all effects brutally defeated both the World Eaters (battle of Skalathrax) and the Sons of Horus, with Fabius taking the corpse of Horus himself for his experiments.

How do you come to this conclusion? The EC for the most part on Terra were combat ineffective, taking no part in the fighting and basically enjoying the devolution into ignominy. They started small, and remained that way throughout the crusade (Fulgrim and his 200 marines - the entire Legion at the time - were seconded to the 28th expedition). They certainly did not defeat the WE, Kharn pretty much destroyed both legions, even ignoring Kharns actions, how do you figure the EC won when they emerged in as bad a state as their enemies? Also after Horus was cloned, Abaddon descended on the EC and crushed Fabius' experiment, destroying all the clones in the process. How do you conclude that the EC won these matchups?

Arguably, they are the weakest Legion right now.

That dubious honour likely rests with the Thousand Sons.

MarsNZ wrote:

 da001 wrote:


The Black Legion get people from everywhere, so in a single warband you can find a bunch of Rubrick marines lead by a Sorcerer, some Noise marines, a recently turned squad of traitors, an Apostle preaching the word of Lorgar and so on. As a result, they lack the "distinctive theme" that defines any other Legion. You get a, say, Death Guard warband and it shares a lot of traits with another Death Guard warband. And the same goes for the rest. But you get two different BL warbands and they can be completely different from one another.

That´s the reason why the people were "wtf" when the Black Legion supplement was announced. The Black Legion is just a generic Chaos SM army, it is the only "Legion" that does not need specific rules. Because, in many senses, they are not a "Legion".

I disagree, their willingness to allow others to join is what defines them from the other Legions. You said so yourself. BL is the only place you'll see Noisemarines backing up Bezerkers. Then there are the other things unique to the BL, like 'unpossessing' marines for instance, or the fact that they can reproduce Bezerkers more efficiently than the WE can. I disagree that Codex: CSM represented BL. Abaddon was the single representative from BL present. This viewpoint seems to come from this annoying habit of people needing CSM to represent direct alternatives to SM, in this case, Black Legion // Ultramarines.

That´s like saying that their uniqueness is that they lack anything unique. The rest of the Legions have a distinctive trait that make them easy to identify... But not them. That´s a litte too abstract for my liking, but I get your point.

Anyway, if there is a new unit for CSM, then the BL, by definition, will get access to that unit too. So any unit in the Codex CSM is part of BL. So the Codex CSM is the Codex BL, at least regarding units. Perhaps not the special rules, but the units are the same. So a "Supplement: BL" could be made with just a pair of sentences, and perhaps some warlord traits and relics... which is what they did.

By the way the WE are known for the incredible fast rate of training zerks, I don´t know where did you get the idea the BL berkerker surgeons are better than the WE berserker surgeons. I always assumed both studied in the same college, so to say. It is people who moved from WE to BL, I don´t see why you think they are the best in their field.

The BL are the biggest threat nowadays due to their EOEP. The rest of the Legions as well as the renegades are also threats to the Imperium. The Dominion of Fire (caused by World Eaters) is a good example of a massive Chaos threat. And they all pale in comparison with the threat that is the humble human servants of Chaos, which are countless, hiding among the loyalist. That´s the enemy within, which is far more dangerous than the CSM.

I agree with the underlined part. I agree Rengades are a threat. I disagree that the threat from the dominion of fire (a single instance where a single legion did anything since 30K), or worse, random Renegade chapters like the Red Cosairs (who are glorified pirates) remotely compares to the Black Crusades.

Thousands of worlds destroyed or in open rebellion for a thousand years seems to me a major threat. Or at least, a threat. The "biggest" is OK, the "only one" is not OK.

Also, many Black Crusades are something of a joke. Which one was the one when Aby got lost and ended up in the middle of an Ork Waagh? And what about the third, when Aby sent a full fleet to get destroyed on Cadia just for attacking a single shrine world? All the power of Chaos in your hands and you lose a fleet to desecrate the remains of a single saint?

Seriuouly, there is a reason for the "failabaddon" meme. If you read Codex: Black Legion you will wonder how this individual is in charge of anything. He keeps losing most of his army all the time, then he scapes, then he rallies another army. It is like a "villain of the week". Aaron Dembsky-Bowden is working on a BL book and I do hope he manages to make the character worthy of respect, but he has a hard work ahead.

To a certain degree, this apply to all the Heresy. They dedicated their time to personal satisfaction, and thus they retired to the eye far stronger than the rest of the Legions. But they need slaves for their joys, so they attack the other Legions, thus triggering the Slave Wars inside the eye. As a result, they to all effects brutally defeated both the World Eaters (battle of Skalathrax) and the Sons of Horus, with Fabius taking the corpse of Horus himself for his experiments.

How do you come to this conclusion? The EC for the most part on Terra were combat ineffective, taking no part in the fighting and basically enjoying the devolution into ignominy. They started small, and remained that way throughout the crusade (Fulgrim and his 200 marines - the entire Legion at the time - were seconded to the 28th expedition). They certainly did not defeat the WE, Kharn pretty much destroyed both legions, even ignoring Kharns actions, how do you figure the EC won when they emerged in as bad a state as their enemies? Also after Horus was cloned, Abaddon descended on the EC and crushed Fabius' experiment, destroying all the clones in the process. How do you conclude that the EC won these matchups?

I am not sure what are you discussing here. I quoted the entire entry about Skalathrax, which as far as I know is the only information ever written on the matter. Where did you get the idea Kharn destroyed both Legions? Did you get a different source about Skalathrax? And "the EC emerged in as bad a state as their enemies"? Source, please.

I think you are getting the idea that I somehow favour EC over WE. That´s totally not the case. But the EC won of Skalathrax. That´s not "overstating their achievements". It is just a specific battle they won. Not that they won many.

And the EC destroyed the Sons of Horus Legion and took the corpse of the Warmaster. I quoted you one source on the matter, but there are others and all of them say the same. The destruction of the clones and the corpse of Horus by Abaddon, on the other side, is regarded as the birth of the Black Legion. Two different battles. The EC won the first, and the BL won the second and thus the war. These two facts do not contradict each other.

Arguably, they are the weakest Legion right now.

That dubious honour likely rests with the Thousand Sons.

Perhaps. If I am to pick one between them, I will say Night Lords, even if they are united again, with Emperor´s Children, World Eaters and Thousand Sons slightly bigger. And this is assuming number=power. Some would say the Thousand Sons may be far superior if compared one by one.

The BL supplement is horrible for representing the BL. It forces you to make all your CSM veterans of the long war, and you can take chosen as troops. Fluffwise, the VAST majority of BL warbands don't consist entirely of 10,000 year old veterans, nor do many of them have Abaddon's chosen in them either.