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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/29 01:21:41
Subject: Farshight Enclaves allied with a tau buffmander (tau signature systems) illegal?
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Regular Dakkanaut
Shoreline
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So it states in the FE codex under SIGNATURE SYSTEM "Any character in your army that may select Signature Systems may not select from those listed in the Codex: Tau Empire..."
Then in the BRB defining Allied Detachment it states "your army can include one allied detachment for each primary detachment in your army" pg. 109
Now from this statements it states that an allied detachment is part of your army thus making a FE allied with tau (or vice versa) not able to select any Signature Systems from the Tau Codex, except bodyguards since they are not characters. This is also reinforced by the statement in the FE under FARSIGHTS COMMANDER TEAM regarding the "Eight" having the signature system rule not apply to them since some of them has signature systems from the Tau Codex.
Now if I am wrong and an allied detachment is a different army from the primary detachment you can potentially have 2 of the same signature system like the PENchip since the restriction is per army (one from the Tau buffmander and the other from FE Shas'O Sha'vastos). Also, the restriction for not being able to have Aun'Va or Commander Shadowsun is for a FE army. So technically you can have one or the other if you are allied with Tau.
So what are your guys thoughts? Did I miss something obvious that just made my rant embarrassing?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/29 01:33:02
Subject: Farshight Enclaves allied with a tau buffmander (tau signature systems) illegal?
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Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
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Due to how often the 'Buffmander - Farsight' combo has been used in Tournaments, many people are willing to overlook the fact it is actually illegal because it seems to have 'official blessing.' This, coupled with the confusion over Game Workshops use of the word Army, has led many to conclude that there is even Rule as Written support for using both in Your Army. However one interesting change to the Rule book, done via Errata in an Frequently Asked Question, adds a great deal more strength to the argument that such a combination is very much illegal. After all, the rule in question starts stating Your Army and this clearly makes it an army wide restriction preventing the Tau Empire Codex's Signature Systems from being accessible should the Farsight Enclave supplement be in play. Within the Frequently Asked Questions surrounding the Farsight Enclave one Rule was changed from 'Your Army can not include X and Y' to 'A farsight Enclave Army can not include X or Y.' That was the only change, highlighting that 'Your Army' is not interchangeable with 'a Farsight Enclave Army.'
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/29 01:34:29
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/29 01:35:51
Subject: Farshight Enclaves allied with a tau buffmander (tau signature systems) illegal?
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Shas'ui with Bonding Knife
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Welcome to DakkaDakka.
The Farsight Enclave book mixes terminology a lot and isn't obvious what the answer is. Most of the instances, it says "Farsight Enclave Army" which some view as referring to only the detachment that the Farsight Enclave occupies.
The alternative view has the Enclave rules extend to all Tau detachments and possibly the formations as well. I need to dig up my Farsight book to make sure about that.
Edit:
I assume you are talking about Divergent Destiny change from "Your Army cannot not include" to "A Farsight Enclave Army cannot include". This only brings it in line with the rest of the book while fixing an funny typo, but does not add clarity if it only refers to the detachment the Farsight Enclave is occupying, or the all of your detachments.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/29 01:51:36
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/29 12:44:21
Subject: Farshight Enclaves allied with a tau buffmander (tau signature systems) illegal?
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Fireknife Shas'el
Lisbon, Portugal
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I believe it was a typo. I believe they wanted to mean 'detachment' instead of 'army'. Have in mind FE was the first supplement GW did that allowed allying with the 'mother' codex (AFAIK, Iyanden cannot allow with Eldar). Mistakes could happen.
In a fluff note, not only some of the tau Empire's signature systems did exist when Farsight left the Empire but also a supply ship with many new stuff was 'diverted' to Farsight Enclaves.
I see no problem with Buffmander and FE as Primary. I see problems and arguments allowing Farsight's Bodyguard team from FE picking up TE Signature Systems, though.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/29 12:46:08
AI & BFG: / BMG: Mr. Freeze, Deathstroke / Battletech: SR, OWA / Fallout Factions: BoS / HGB: Caprice / Malifaux: Arcanists, Guild, Outcasts / MCP: Mutants / SAGA: Ordensstaat / SW Legion: CIS / WWX: Union
Unit1126PLL wrote:"FW is unbalanced and going to ruin tournaments."
"Name one where it did that."
"IT JUST DOES OKAY!"
Shadenuat wrote:Voted Astra Militarum for a chance for them to get nerfed instead of my own army. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/29 15:23:56
Subject: Farshight Enclaves allied with a tau buffmander (tau signature systems) illegal?
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Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
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Nilok, I have to disagree because of one simple question: If they where making such changes, because all 'Your Army' uses in Codex's/Supplements are typos, then why leave the Signature System Rule as 'Your Army?" Why is this the only Rule which was changed?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/29 15:24:48
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/29 16:01:59
Subject: Farshight Enclaves allied with a tau buffmander (tau signature systems) illegal?
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Shrieking Traitor Sentinel Pilot
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Because the FE supplement is very poorly written. It's that simple.
If they intended it to be very clear that allied TE could not take their own codex options, wouldn't they have made that explicitly clear, rather than relying on an exploitative reading to define that?
If they had intended for FE bodygaurds to be able to take TE codex equipment, breaking the rules on the gear restriction, wouldn't they have made it explicitly clear instead of relying on exploitative reading?
FE really was a beta test on how to make supplements for factions work, and it has A LOT of bugs. In the end, it's so poorly written tat everyone is going to have a different interpretation, and individual gaming groups or tournament organizers are going to look at FE and decide if these low level body guards were meant to have access to rare and fancy gear from the motherland, when the commander in chief doesn't, or if and allied group from the motherland would abandon all of their gear, or fight the way they already know how to.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/29 17:48:33
Subject: Farshight Enclaves allied with a tau buffmander (tau signature systems) illegal?
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Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
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Unless the Authors believed they where already making it clear by using Terminology defined within the in Basic Rule Book: The concept of 'Your Army' has whole pages dedicated to it, the very title on Page 108 is 'Choosing Your Army,' and Page 109 cements the concept by stating that Your Army may include Allied Detachments.... It has always been the Terminology of 'Codex's X Army' that has been in doubt, so a change away from 'Your Army' to 'A Farsight Enclave Army' is a very strong evidence that they never intend for these terms to be interchangeable. If you want to highlight an example of an 'overlooked situation' the Bodyguard one is a very good example but not for the reasons you think: Farsight Enclave Bodyguards are immune from the Farsight Enclave's Signature System Rule no matter if you read it as 'Your Army' or 'Units using these supplementary Rules' as said Rule singles out (Characters,) which Bodyguards are not.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/29 17:52:51
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/29 20:25:32
Subject: Farshight Enclaves allied with a tau buffmander (tau signature systems) illegal?
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Shas'ui with Bonding Knife
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JinxDragon wrote:Nilok,
I have to disagree because of one simple question:
If they where making such changes, because all 'Your Army' uses in Codex's/Supplements are typos, then why leave the Signature System Rule as 'Your Army?"
Why is this the only Rule which was changed?
Just reread that part f the supplement and your right. So while you can't take a buffmander, you can take Shadowsun for your allied HQ and throw her in the O'Vesa Star or put the Earth Caste Pilot Array on a Firebase Support Cadre Formation Detachment. I can't tell if its funny or stupid.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/29 20:26:13
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/29 20:38:34
Subject: Farshight Enclaves allied with a tau buffmander (tau signature systems) illegal?
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Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
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Many other Rules are down right stupid when combined with other Rules on the table, we all know Game Workshop writes only for the simplest interactions.... This is even more stupid if you ask me, but I have never agreed with the Codex and Far-sight Supplement being Battle Brothers with each other from both a Balance and Narrative point of view to begin with. The bit that I find as very curious is that Tournament Organizers have always been willing to allow such combinations occur, with a Buffmander on top of all, even when the Rule was an Your Army wide limitation. However, that is my fault for even thinking that an organizer would be consistent in their rulings, universally applying whatever logic they use to decide to every similar situation, instead of handing the faction every boon but none of the banes....
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/29 20:43:20
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/29 21:03:24
Subject: Farshight Enclaves allied with a tau buffmander (tau signature systems) illegal?
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter
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Nilok wrote:put the Earth Caste Pilot Array on a Firebase Support Cadre Formation Detachment. I can't tell if its funny or stupid.
I can't see how this would be accomplished, since the ECPA isn't an option in the dataslate. How are you doing this?
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LVO 2017 - Best GK Player
The Grimdark Future 8500 1500  6000 2000 5000
"[We have] an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay." 1 Peter 1.4
"With the Emperor there is no variation or shadow due to change." James 1.17
“Fear the Emperor; do not associate with those who are given to change.” Proverbs 24.21 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/29 21:59:07
Subject: Farshight Enclaves allied with a tau buffmander (tau signature systems) illegal?
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Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
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By evoking the Signature Systems Rule in the Far-sight Enclave Supplement, which is Your Army wide, granting permission for Riptides to take Signature systems from the Farsight Enclave Supplement.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/29 21:59:24
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/29 22:05:08
Subject: Farshight Enclaves allied with a tau buffmander (tau signature systems) illegal?
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Shas'ui with Bonding Knife
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Elric Greywolf wrote: Nilok wrote:put the Earth Caste Pilot Array on a Firebase Support Cadre Formation Detachment. I can't tell if its funny or stupid.
I can't see how this would be accomplished, since the ECPA isn't an option in the dataslate. How are you doing this?
From the Farsight Enclaves, emphasis is mine
SIGNATURE SYSTEMS wrote:Any character in your army that may select Signature Systems may not select from those listed in Codex: Tau Empire, but may instead select from the Signature System of the Farsight Enclaves (opposite), at the points cost shown. Note that XV104 Riptides in your army may select items from the Signature Systems of the Farsight Enclaves
If you take a Farsight Enclaves detachment, all of your Riptides in your army from the Tau Codex, Farsight Enclaves, or the Firebase Cadre can take the ECPA.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/29 22:12:13
Subject: Farshight Enclaves allied with a tau buffmander (tau signature systems) illegal?
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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The question is when they say "your army" are they referring to a FE detachment, or would that apply to allied Tau as well?
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/29 22:17:06
Subject: Farshight Enclaves allied with a tau buffmander (tau signature systems) illegal?
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Shas'ui with Bonding Knife
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Happyjew wrote:The question is when they say "your army" are they referring to a FE detachment, or would that apply to allied Tau as well?
There are two different 'army' distinctions use in the Farsight Enclaves. For instance, a Farsight Enclaves Army cannot take Shadowsun or Aun'va, or units in a Farsight Enclaves Army must take the Bonding Knife Ritual if they can. Signature Systems are currently the only thing in the book, that I can find, since the Divergent Destiny errata that says "your army", which in the BRB is all of your detachments.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/29 22:17:27
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/29 22:24:55
Subject: Farshight Enclaves allied with a tau buffmander (tau signature systems) illegal?
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Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
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Besides, in reality, what is the Farsight Enclave designed for if not to free up Elite slots for Riptides or Stealth Teams? Okay, there is that really interesting Command Team.... Still, the Rule allowing Crisis Teams to be Troop choices is defiantly a center piece of the Farsight Enclave Army. While Stealth Troops are not that bad in the right situations, we all know given the choice we will probably opt for the Riptide as it can do insane damage while still remaining very survivable. Stealth Teams are more tactical oriented, great in the hands of a good commander but going to under-perform if the Army isn't dedicated to using tactics centered around these teams. A Farsight Enclave army is already leaning towards the Crisis Suits being the primary element, so they are better off spending the Elite slots on Riptides as far as the eye can see. They don't need the Formation and it is probably a liability for a Farsight Enclave Army....
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/29 22:27:00
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/29 23:39:37
Subject: Farshight Enclaves allied with a tau buffmander (tau signature systems) illegal?
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Shas'ui with Bonding Knife
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If I was already taking two broadside teams and a riptide, the Firebase will still be better since it doesn't cost any extra. The special rules it brings make it great for taking down vehicles and the ECPA in the Riptide can potentially make one of the best anti-vehicle setups for Tau.
-Re-Roll Nova Charge
-Re-Roll Ones to Hit
-Re-Roll Armor Pen
-PE Space Marines
Take HBC/IA and TL Fusion Blaster and either Nova Charge the Burst Cannon or Ripple Fire the Fusion Blasters every turn.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/30 04:23:29
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/30 10:32:53
Subject: Farshight Enclaves allied with a tau buffmander (tau signature systems) illegal?
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Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
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True, Tank Hunter is something I did overlook.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/15 17:08:46
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/01 18:06:55
Subject: Farshight Enclaves allied with a tau buffmander (tau signature systems) illegal?
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Dakka Veteran
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This is an easy one.
Primary detatchment. FE USE the enclave book for all systems and prevelant rules.
Allies detachment . You take Tau book allies. Use the rules for that book for systems and rules.
The your army debate has been burning and burning since allies and 6th edition dropped. Primary detachment , and allies use the rules from their respective books no matter who they are. No mixing. By
By using FE AS PRIMARY , and tau army as allies dosent mean you cannot use the tau books rules. However if your entire army consists of just tau, or FE, then you have to use the books rules for signature systems and the like no criss crossing, ,or cherry picking the best out.
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In a dog eat dog be a cat. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/15 16:58:36
Subject: Farshight Enclaves allied with a tau buffmander (tau signature systems) illegal?
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Regular Dakkanaut
Shoreline
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Does it really matter if FE is primary or allied detachment since the restriction is "army" wide? Because if this is the case and the "army" restrictions only pertain per detachment I can potentially can have 2 Farsight bomb. One from FE (Bodyguards can have access to tau signature systems since they are not characters) and the other from the Tau detachment.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/15 18:36:47
Subject: Farshight Enclaves allied with a tau buffmander (tau signature systems) illegal?
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Shas'ui with Bonding Knife
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Except Unique is army wide, which is all of your detachments. You cannot take 2 Farsights.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/16 15:17:51
Subject: Farshight Enclaves allied with a tau buffmander (tau signature systems) illegal?
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Regular Dakkanaut
Shoreline
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Well the wording under unique special character is "...in an army" pg 110. If that is accepted as an army wide restriction then the FE signature system restriction is also an army wide restriction too.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/16 16:49:59
Subject: Farshight Enclaves allied with a tau buffmander (tau signature systems) illegal?
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Shas'ui with Bonding Knife
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Tautastic wrote:Well the wording under unique special character is "...in an army" pg 110. If that is accepted as an army wide restriction then the FE signature system restriction is also an army wide restriction too.
Indeed. When it only says army, it is referring to everything.
My opinion of a 'codex' army, since it is different from just army but not properly defined, is that those rules only apply to their detachment.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/16 18:31:42
Subject: Farshight Enclaves allied with a tau buffmander (tau signature systems) illegal?
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Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
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The more I think on this, the more and more it makes sense that 'Codex Army' is different from 'Your Army.' There needs to be a method to address models selected from an individual Codex, one which that takes into account that multiple detachments from a single Codex are possible. If we limit the Rule to just a Detachment, such as the Unique Weapon Systems for Tau are, then the rule can be evoked twice in games of 2000+ as there can be two detachments per codex. Given that the Authors want certain pieces of war-gear or models to be limited to one per side, it makes perfect sense for there to be a 'codex' level that can cover any selections from a single codex regardless of point level or other external circumstances. Though a different word then 'army' to describe it would have caused less confusion.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/05/16 18:36:58
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
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