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 jeffersonian000 wrote:
DeathReaper, you failed to quote any mention of modifiers being cumulative, all you quoted was order of operations. Can you quote a single example where more than one of the same modifier are combined per the rules on pg. 2?

SJ

Yes I did, let me underline it for you

""If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions..." (2)

They tell us to "apply any additions"

Hammerhand cast from a unit gives an addition to the units str.

Hammerhand cast from a IC in that same unit gives an addition to the units str.

Ergo... Page 2 applies and they in fact are cumulative

Princeraven: Do the Termigaunt have a special rule pertaining to how they are made, deployed or interact with the battle? Do they count as scoring units or are they nonscoring units? Its a terrible example, as it inherently cannot be cumulative and the unit itself has a host of special rules that are not standard to a Termigaunt Brood. Try again.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I'm sorry, but are you suggesting a unit that has had Hammerhand resolved on it twice does not have "a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic" and thus may not "apply any additions or subtractions"?

Not a combination, Hammer Hand is a source that has no permission to be cumulative with itself in its own text. A combination would come from differen sources or the same source if it has permission to be cumulative with itself.

 Bausk wrote:
Princeraven: Do the Termigaunt have a special rule pertaining to how they are made, deployed or interact with the battle? Do they count as scoring units or are they nonscoring units? Its a terrible example, as it inherently cannot be cumulative and the unit itself has a host of special rules that are not standard to a Termigaunt Brood. Try again.

It was a joke, dude...

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I'm sorry, but are you suggesting a unit that has had Hammerhand resolved on it twice does not have "a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic" and thus may not "apply any additions or subtractions"?

Not a combination, Hammer Hand is a source that has no permission to be cumulative with itself in its own text. A combination would come from differen sources or the same source if it has permission to be cumulative with itself.

There is no requirement for the combination of rules to be from different sources that I can see, could you quote it?

It was a terrible attempt at sarcasm, not a joke, but you get a reply anyway.

No requirment true, with that you're correct, however the point you fail to address is not all sources may be used cumulatively with themselves. As I stated in those situations only one of the same sources is used.

I agree, the sources that state they deny permission to be used cumulatively, such as special rules, definitely cannot be.

As to that point powers are generates by a usr just as much as +1S is generated by meeting the requirements of Furious Charge. For the any power to exist at all one needs to follow the rules for said usr: Psyker. The difference between the two is one is a simple one paragraph rule while the other has its own section detailing its use as it is far more complex.

Some special rules are almost as complex requiring several paragraphs to detail its correct use. But again they are no less the same as the humble Furious Charge.

Psychic powers are not generated by the Psyker USR, the Psyker USR allows you to use psychic powers.
An important distinction.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Psychic powers are not generated by the Psyker USR, the Psyker USR allows you to use psychic powers.
An important distinction.

Page 41 Psyker, second sentence: Rules for Psykers are covered in full detail in thier own section starting on page 66.

Page 66-69 are the rules for the USR Psyker. Powers and how they are manifested are subheadings in this section.

Congratulations, you found out out how the Psyker USR allows a Psyker to use psychic powers, good job.

As stated in the Psyker USR they are the full rules for the USR and by that they are the USR Psyker. Meaning my original statement that Powers are generated by the USR Psyker is correct RAW, not that they have access to them. It is stated explicitly there in the USR that they are the rules for the USR and not seperate to said USR as you have incorrectly asserted.

Which also means that powers, being the rules for the USR Psyker, are Special rules and thus the restriction for Special rules apply unless it is otherwise stated by the powers type or specific text.

 Bausk wrote:
As stated in the Psyker USR they are the full rules for the USR and by that they are the USR Psyker. Meaning my original statement that Powers are generated by the USR Psyker is correct RAW, not that they have access to them. It is stated explicitly there in the USR that they are the rules for the USR and not seperate to said USR as you have incorrectly asserted.

Which also means that powers, being the rules for the USR Psyker, are Special rules and thus the restriction for Special rules apply unless it is otherwise stated by the powers type or specific text.

Which part of it says that? You keep making claims that it explicitly states that psychic powers are an effect of the Psyker USR and not their own rules, but I've yet to see a single quote.

I have the rules for generating psychic powers on page 418 right now, and not once does it say that the Psyker USR generates powers, in fact it states multiple times that the powers are generated by the model from the psychic disciplines the Psyker knows, and the only references to the Psyker USR are in relation to the model.

 Bausk wrote:
As stated in the Psyker USR they are the full rules for the USR and by that they are the USR Psyker. Meaning my original statement that Powers are generated by the USR Psyker is correct RAW, not that they have access to them. It is stated explicitly there in the USR that they are the rules for the USR and not seperate to said USR as you have incorrectly asserted.

Which also means that powers, being the rules for the USR Psyker, are Special rules and thus the restriction for Special rules apply unless it is otherwise stated by the powers type or specific text.

That is funny, I do not see any Psychic powers on pages 66-69...

I only see rules on how to manifest psychic powers.

So the ability to use a Psychic power is a Special rule, but the Psychic powers themselves are not special rules.

Furthermore, my earlier point still applies.

If a unit has had Enfeeble casted on it, it can then not use Hammerhand, as it would be 'benefiting' (depending on who you ask) from the Psyker special rule twice.

The Eldar could not Guide/Fortune models, also.

Princeraven: Stated on page 41 as I said before.

Deathreaper: You must have overlooked the second paragraph of page 66 pertaining to what powers a psyker has. As stated page 66-69: including the generation of what powers a psker has, how many powers, how many warp charges a psyker has, the manifestation of said powers, the denial of said powers and even types of powers are listed.

Yet I feel this doesn't satisfy either of you're bias notions of evidence. The simple fact that the rules on pages 66-69 are the Psyker USRs rules is RAW as stated.

As such the use of any power, regardless of its origin be it codex or BRB, is part of these rules from selection to resolution.

Plus if you use Puppet Master, the effect of it is making an enemy model make a shooting attack, therefore enemy shooting attacks are now effects of a special rule and cannot be applied cumulatively.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Furthermore, my earlier point still applies.

If a unit has had Enfeeble casted on it, it can then not use Hammerhand, as it would be 'benefiting' (depending on who you ask) from the Psyker special rule twice.

The Eldar could not Guide/Fortune models, also.

Incorrect. The Psyker USR allows such powers to be cumulative (detailed on pages 66-69).

"Unless specifically stated, a model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more than once."

What is the benefit of the Psyker special rule? You become a Psyker, gaining a Mastery Level, psychic powers, and generate warp charges each turn.
You can only become a Psyker once, but you can gain multple warp charges, multiple psychic powers, and manifest several powers each turn.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Plus if you use Puppet Master, the effect of it is making an enemy model make a shooting attack, therefore enemy shooting attacks are now effects of a special rule and cannot be applied cumulatively.

Also incorrect. Puppet Master is the power, hence part of the Psyker USR. The shooting attack is the effect/resolution. And again this shooting attack has special rules for its use much like your previous attempt at sarcasm. As it is not directed by the owning player, not conducted in the shooting phase etc.

Right, so the effect/resolution of a psychic power isn't a special rule, and is therefore not subject the special rule non-cumulative clause.

Good thing we cleared that up.
Hammerhand's +1 Strength modifier stacks.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
"Unless specifically stated, a model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more than once."

What is the benefit of the Psyker special rule? You become a Psyker, gaining a Mastery Level, psychic powers, and generate warp charges each turn.
You can only become a Psyker once, but you can gain multple warp charges, multiple psychic powers, and manifest several powers each turn.

The benefit you ask is the whole set of rules detailed on pages 66-69 and there is where you find specific statements of how many times you may benefit from each part of this special rule and specific statements of parts being allowed to be cumulative.

Basically it covers the whole USR from start to finish with detailed added permissions and specific exceptions all the way to even the powers own text. Thus why some blessings and maledictions are cumulative (as stated in thier own text) with themselves and most are only cumulative with different powers (as stated under blessings and maledictions in the BRB).

As I said before, its a very large and complex USR.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Right, so the effect/resolution of a psychic power isn't a special rule, and is therefore not subject the special rule non-cumulative clause.

Good thing we cleared that up.
Hammerhand's +1 Strength modifier stacks.

For simplicity sake lets go with you on this one and say the resolution has no bearing on the subject. Hammerhand, like puppetmaster before it is a part of the Psyker USR so the +1S can be cumulative only if Hammerhand is allowed to be cumulative with itself.

Meaning stop jumping ahead to the resolution when you have not figured out if both can resolve as a cumulative resoluton.

Hammerhand is a power without a type correct? So read the base power rules and the rules for Hammerhand itself. If either grant such permission. then yes. If niether grant the permission the no.

 Bausk wrote:

For simplicity sake lets go with you on this one and say the resolution has no bearing on the subject. Hammerhand, like puppetmaster before it is a part of the Psyker USR so the +1S can be cumulative only if Hammerhand is allowed to be cumulative with itself.

Meaning stop jumping ahead to the resolution when you have not figured out if both can resolve as a cumulative resoluton.

Hammerhand is a power without a type correct? So read the base power rules and the rules for Hammerhand itself. If either grant such permission. then yes. If niether grant the permission the no.

Permission is granted by it's use of the + sign, which is an operator and cumulative by definition.

 Bausk wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Right, so the effect/resolution of a psychic power isn't a special rule, and is therefore not subject the special rule non-cumulative clause.

Good thing we cleared that up.
Hammerhand's +1 Strength modifier stacks.

For simplicity sake lets go with you on this one and say the resolution has no bearing on the subject. Hammerhand, like puppetmaster before it is a part of the Psyker USR so the +1S can be cumulative only if Hammerhand is allowed to be cumulative with itself.

Meaning stop jumping ahead to the resolution when you have not figured out if both can resolve as a cumulative resoluton.

Hammerhand is a power without a type correct? So read the base power rules and the rules for Hammerhand itself. If either grant such permission. then yes. If niether grant the permission the no.

Ah, so there's some sort of denial rule in play then, if general permission to manifest the power, resolve the power, and apply the +1 Strength modifier (which is given further permission by the Multiple Modifiers rule to be applied cumulatively with other modifiers) does not grant permission, and we need a specific permission rule to override said denial.
Could you quote it for me?

No the +1S is the effect which is not inherently cumulative. If you did read the sections I suggested and the result is all you have then no it is not. As you are attempting to apply two of the same effect.

It would be like mok spawn claiming +4 A for applying rage twice.

 Bausk wrote:
No the +1S is the effect which is not inherently cumulative. If you did read the sections I suggested and the result is all you have then no it is not. As you are attempting to apply two of the same effect.

It would be like mok spawn claiming +4 A for applying rage twice.

Rage is a special rule. +1 strength is indeed cumulative via the multiple modifiers as it is a rule that modifies a characteristic. I have rules-based permission to apply this strength modifier to the models in the unit, which overrides any assumptions that I cannot.

Again, I ask you where the denial is.

At every stage the special rule denial exists. The rules for Psykers make conditional alterations and/or exceptions to this. The key word there is conditional.
Skipping these conditions to the resolution to find justification in cumulative powers is not correct.

For example: You may use more than one power per turn on the condition you have a high enough mastery level, have enough warp charges and have appropriate powers to use.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Again using your misinterpreted version of skipping to tge effects the spawn has the rage usr for +2A and has a mok granting a second rage usr. Using just multiple modifiers alone and none of the conditions that precede it the spawn gain +4A as per multiple modifiers.

Doesn't quite work does it.

 Bausk wrote:
At every stage the special rule denial exists. The rules for Psykers make conditional alterations and/or exceptions to this. The key word there is conditional.
Skipping these conditions to the resolution to find justification in cumulative powers is not correct.

For example: You may use more than one power per turn on the condition you have a high enough mastery level, have enough warp charges and have appropriate powers to use.

So again, you are saying "hammerhand" is a special rule?

Given you were just, literally, proven wrong on that, I suggest you recant.

 Bausk wrote:
At every stage the special rule denial exists. The rules for Psykers make conditional alterations and/or exceptions to this. The key word there is conditional.
Skipping these conditions to the resolution to find justification in cumulative powers is not correct.

For example: You may use more than one power per turn on the condition you have a high enough mastery level, have enough warp charges and have appropriate powers to use.

The ability to use Psychic powers being granted by Psyker does not make them non-cumulative any more than permission to use Heavy Bolter being granted by Relentless does. The powers and their effects are not included in the Psyker special rule, they are in the psychic powers rules, because they are psychic powers not special rules.

Again using your misinterpreted version of skipping to tge effects the spawn has the rage usr for +2A and has a mok granting a second rage usr. Using just multiple modifiers alone and none of the conditions that precede it the spawn gain +4A as per multiple modifiers.

Doesn't quite work does it.

Except Rage, unlike Hammerhand, is a special rule and does have a rule supplying denial to the second Rage +2 attack modifier being applied.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
DeathReaper, you failed to quote any mention of modifiers being cumulative, all you quoted was order of operations. Can you quote a single example where more than one of the same modifier are combined per the rules on pg. 2?

SJ

any additionS, as in, more than one addition.

By definition cumulative. Also, the "+" sign is by definition cumulative, unless you can prove otherwise using 40k rules

"A model with this special rule is a Psyker. Rules for Psykers are covered in full detail in their own section starting on page 66."

What is the benefit for the Psyker special rule? You are a Psyker.
Are the rules on page 66 the rules for the Psyker USR or for being a Psyker? Being a Psyker.

So to summate:

Permission is given, consistently, throughout the entire set of rules, for +1S to be added to +1S, as long as it isnt coming from the same special rule, or from something else that adds in an explicit restriction.

No amount of handwaving, and misrepresentation that "abilities" are restricted from being gained more than once, and illogic in claiming that permission to do X is a restriction on doing Y, etc will get rid of that.

Can this thread be locked again? Yet again the no stack side cannot prove their case in any way.