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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/04 12:35:39
Subject: Re:hammer hand
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Tea-Kettle of Blood
Adelaide, South Australia
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Fragile wrote: Sigvatr wrote:Unless anyone comes up with an exact quote from the BRB that says that psychic powers are special rules, every single point you try to make is a waste of time.
So every model in the game can use psychic powers ?
Every model that is a Psyker.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/04 12:36:35
Ailaros wrote:You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.
"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/04 13:29:30
Subject: hammer hand
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Fragile wrote: Sigvatr wrote:Unless anyone comes up with an exact quote from the BRB that says that psychic powers are special rules, every single point you try to make is a waste of time.
So every model in the game can use psychic powers ?
Read the posts. You don't know what "special rules" means. "Special Rules" does NOT mean that it's a special rule if you use "special" as an everyday term. Special rules in Warhammer 40k are explicitely given by the BRB itself as pointed out in my previous posts.
Please refer to the tennets of YMDC:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/253892.page
Especially this:
6. Dictionary definitions of words are not always a reliable source of information for rules debates, as words in the general English language have broader meanings than those in the rules. This is further compounded by the fact that certain English words have different meanings or connotations in Great Britain (where the rules were written) and in the United States. Unless a poster is using a word incorrectly in a very obvious manner, leave dictionary definitions out.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/04 15:39:30
Subject: hammer hand
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Why don't you follow those tenets yourself? Try this for what is actually said about the special rules:
"Most of the more commonly used special rules in Warhammer 40,000 are listed here, but this is by no means an exhaustive list."
So this is an outright lie:
Special rules in Warhammer 40k are explicitely given by the BRB itself as pointed out in my previous posts.
Are we to believe your lies or shall we read the rulebook instead?
I believe I am done with this thread. Pro-stacking side has failed to provide a written rule that would allow Hammerhead stacking with Hammerhead.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/04 15:45:44
Subject: Re:hammer hand
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Tea-Kettle of Blood
Adelaide, South Australia
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Naw's actually right this time, Special Rules are also found in Codices under the Special Rules section of the various units. Of course, Hammerhand isn't in those either, it's in the Psychic Power section because, wait for it... It's not a special rule but a psychic power.
And once again the pro-stacking side continues to allow my proof that Hammerhand stacks to stand uncontested.
As I'm the person with a sound argument that has yet to be disproven, by the rules of logic and arguments that means I'm winning, correct?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/04 15:46:04
Ailaros wrote:You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.
"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/04 15:49:05
Subject: hammer hand
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Yes, exactly, hurrah to you.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/04 15:51:10
Subject: Re:hammer hand
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Tea-Kettle of Blood
Adelaide, South Australia
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Then I believe it's time to do my "I won the thread" dance.
But first, I need to choreograph an "I won the thread" dance...
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Ailaros wrote:You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.
"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/04 16:02:48
Subject: hammer hand
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Naw wrote:Why don't you follow those tenets yourself? Try this for what is actually said about the special rules: "Most of the more commonly used special rules in Warhammer 40,000 are listed here, but this is by no means an exhaustive list." So this is an outright lie: Special rules in Warhammer 40k are explicitely given by the BRB itself as pointed out in my previous posts. Are we to believe your lies or shall we read the rulebook instead? I believe I am done with this thread. Pro-stacking side has failed to provide a written rule that would allow Hammerhead stacking with Hammerhead. If you want to discuss in YMDC, either be familiar with the rules or don't post here at all, please. At the very least, I do expect people to use a very basic understanding of written text. Maybe, if I post it a 3rd time, you might be able to read the entire post and understand it? Sigvatr wrote:Hmmmm I just re-read the part on psychic powers and stacking and I guess I know where the "con-stacking" side has a misunderstanding. Quoting for future reference: Now - what are "special rules"? The rulebook says that... Similarly a model might get special rules as the result of psychic powers,scenario special rules or being hunkered down in a particular type of terrain. ...and this might make people think that psychic powers are special rules. But the rulebook explicitely tells us what "special rules" are: For ease of consultation, we've presented the special rules in alphabetical order. ...just in front of the list that contains all basic "special rules". At the same time, it says that those aren't all "special rules": Many troops have their own unique abilities, which are laid out in their codex. ...but then says where to find them. ...until then, I'm going to dance. A lot. Hooray for ANOTHER YMDC thread that lasted 11 pages whereas the correct answer was given on the very first page in the very first reply. Ugh.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/05/04 16:05:37
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/04 16:17:00
Subject: Re:hammer hand
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
Armageddon, Pry System, Armageddon Sector, Armageddon Sub-sector, Segmentum Solar.
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PrinceRaven wrote: Bausk wrote:Lets humour you all by discounting the special rule argument and focus on the Rules listed on pages 66-69. Lets take it step by step assuming no permission unless stated as per a permissive rule set yes? The assumption being that the Psyker USR grants permission to use these rules and these rules (on Pages66-69) grant permissions for the use of Powers using the rules listed.
The model is a psyker (as per the Psyker USR) so it has permission to have X amount of powers, use said powers with X amount of Warp charges and may only use its powers once per turn Following the rules for Manifesting a Psychic Power.
With this we intrinsically know and multiple of a power must come from two or more psykers. But at this point we have no permission for any power to be cumulative with itself or with a Different power.
Now when we look at the general rules for powers under Resolve Psychic Power it states that: Unless otherwise stayed, the effects of multiple different psychic powers are cumulative. This gives us permission for different powers to be cumulative, different being different named powers and not different castings of the same power. As we know full well a single psyker cannot manifest the same power twice in one turn. So Different must be different powers and not different casters/psykers/sources.
This is the only permission we have regarding multiple powers, only for different powers to be cumulative. We have no permission for powers that are the same, outside of their own text giving specific permission, to be cumulative with themselves.
You mean apart from these rules I've already clearly laid out?
1. It is the assault phase after assault moves but before blows are struck, my Psyker has a warp charge available and has not used used Hammerhand this turn, so I have permission to manifest Hammerhand. - "This power is used during the Assault phase in either's player turn, after assault moves have been made, but before any blows are struck."
2. I have permission to follow the usual steps for manifesting a psychic power in pages 67=68 as my Librarian is a Psyker.
3. I have permission to resolve the power according to instructions in its entry. - "Assuming that the Psychic test was passed and the enemy did not nullify it through a successful Deny the \Witch roll, you can now resolve the psychic power according to instructions in its entry."
4. The Hammerhand entry instructs me to apply +1 Strength to the unit, so I do. - "If the psychic test is passed, all models in the unit (including independent characters) have +1 Strength until the end of the Assault phase."
5. The unit already has had Hammerhand cast on it, so I have 2 +1 Strength modifiers, following the rules for multiple modifiers, Each model's current strength is now +2. - "If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values."
Which step is denied by which rule?
If you read my post you may have drawn the conclusion yourself. There is no denial, however there is no Permission to Accumulate Hammerhand with Hammerhand. Here's the short version for you:
+ Permissive rule set
+ Permission only granted for different powers to accumulate
+ No permission for same powers to accumulate (unless specified in their entry)
No Permission = cannot do it
Remember: "Different" must mean different powers because It cannot mean different castings. As same castings cannot exist because a Psyker can only attempt to manifest a power once per turn.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/04 16:31:48
Subject: Re:hammer hand
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Bausk wrote:If you read my post you may have drawn the conclusion yourself. There is no denial, however there is no Permission to Accumulate Hammerhand with Hammerhand. Here's the short version for you:
There actually is, as dual castyings of Hammerhand result in multiple modifiers. As per P.2 Multiple Modifiers are cumulative as P.2 tells us to use standard math. + Permissive rule set
Yes, and luckily we have permission to add multiple modifiers cumulatively. + Permission only granted for different powers to accumulate
Fixed that for you. (Emphasis mine) + No permission for same powers to accumulate (unless specified in their entry)
Incorrect, read Page 2. there is permission. No Permission = cannot do it
Yes, but it is a good thing we have permission. Remember: "Different" must mean different powers because It cannot mean different castings. As same castings cannot exist because a Psyker can only attempt to manifest a power once per turn.
Remember that "Unless otherwise stated, the effects of multiple different psychic powers are cumulative." (68) Does not mean that the effects of multiple of the same psychic powers are not cumulative. "permission to do X means you CANNOT do Y!" is logically incorrect.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/05/04 16:32:33
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/04 17:20:20
Subject: Re:hammer hand
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The Hive Mind
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Bausk wrote:If you read my post you may have drawn the conclusion yourself. There is no denial, however there is no Permission to Accumulate Hammerhand with Hammerhand. Here's the short version for you:
+ Permissive rule set
+ Permission only granted for different powers to accumulate
+ No permission for same powers to accumulate (unless specified in their entry)
No Permission = cannot do it
Remember: "Different" must mean different powers because It cannot mean different castings. As same castings cannot exist because a Psyker can only attempt to manifest a power once per turn.
There is permission to resolve according to the test of the power, yes?
Please cite why you're denying that permission. Because the text of the power requires that I add 1 STR.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/04 19:00:17
Subject: hammer hand
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Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps
Phoenix, AZ, USA
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Text removed --yakface
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/04 21:34:57
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/04 21:51:56
Subject: hammer hand
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
Armageddon, Pry System, Armageddon Sector, Armageddon Sub-sector, Segmentum Solar.
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Ok I will try to make this as simple as I can.
As a Permissive rule set we assume no permission unless the rules grant permission yes?
Denial doesn't really exist in this sort of rule set, only restrictions or limitations on permissions exist.
We must assume no permission for anything unless the rules state otherwise.
psyker usr gives permission to use the psyker rules on pages 66-69.
Yes we are given permission to resolve a power, however under the secrion Resolving a Psychic Power we are only given permission for different powers to accumulate.
Without this permission no powers could accumulate. As it only specifies different powers can then only different powers are given permission to accumulate.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/04 22:19:18
Subject: hammer hand
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Bausk wrote:Ok I will try to make this as simple as I can.
As a Permissive rule set we assume no permission unless the rules grant permission yes?
Denial doesn't really exist in this sort of rule set, only restrictions or limitations on permissions exist.
We must assume no permission for anything unless the rules state otherwise.
psyker usr gives permission to use the psyker rules on pages 66-69.
Yes we are given permission to resolve a power, however under the secrion Resolving a Psychic Power we are only given permission for different powers to accumulate.
Without this permission no powers could accumulate. As it only specifies different powers can then only different powers are given permission to accumulate.
And Page 2 gives permission for multiple modifiers to stack. Ergo 4+1+1 = 6.
Find the restriction of this permission or label your posts How you would play it and not RAW.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/04 22:47:48
Subject: hammer hand
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
Armageddon, Pry System, Armageddon Sector, Armageddon Sub-sector, Segmentum Solar.
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Page two is not in tje psyker section and is not permission. It is rules for how multiple modifiers are permitted to accumulate, if they are. Please cite a relevant rule from the psyker section or related codex granting permission for a power to be cumulative with itself.
Example: Codex CSM page 71 Symphony of Pain, Last sentence: Note the effects of more than one Symphony of Pain are cumulative.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/04 22:50:20
Subject: hammer hand
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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Bausk wrote:Page two is not in tje psyker section and is not permission. It is rules for how multiple modifiers are permitted to accumulate, if they are. Please cite a relevant rule from the psyker section or related codex granting permission for a power to be cumulative with itself.
Example: Codex CSM page 71 Symphony of Pain, Last sentence: Note the effects of more than one Symphony of Pain are cumulative.
Bausk, I have permission to cast and resolve a psychic power in accordance with its entry, correct?
If so, I have permission to cast the same psychic power (albeit with a different Psyker) on the same unit, correct?
Please state where there is denial to resolve the psychic power in accordance with its entry. Also note that "different powers stack" is not denial for same psychic powers.
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/04 22:59:25
Subject: hammer hand
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
Armageddon, Pry System, Armageddon Sector, Armageddon Sub-sector, Segmentum Solar.
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Again denial is not implied. You have permission to resolve the power following the full rules for resolving the power. The power and it's effects are not inherently permitted to be cumulative, this is the assumption being made that is incorrect.
In the rules for resolving powers we are given permission to accumulate the effects pf different powers. Thus reqire permission for same powers effects to be cumulative as per the example in my previous post.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/04 23:14:46
Subject: hammer hand
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The Hive Mind
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Bausk wrote:Yes we are given permission to resolve a power, however under the secrion Resolving a Psychic Power we are only given permission for different powers to accumulate.
I underlined your irrelevant statement. The fact that you feel it's worth pointing out proves you're not actually understanding the argument.
You agree there is permission to resolve the power according to its text.
The text adds +1 STR.
It's cast twice, so +1 STR is added twice.
What rules do we govern the fact that there are now multiple modifiers in the unit?
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/04 23:19:35
Subject: hammer hand
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
Armageddon, Pry System, Armageddon Sector, Armageddon Sub-sector, Segmentum Solar.
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Also we can, but often don't bother as it's pointless, resolve effects to no or no additional effect.
Example: A unit of guardsmen with nothing but lasguns only has a rhino in range and los. The unit could fire at the rhino as it has permission tp make a shooting attack at a viable target in its shooting phase.
The unit could roll to hit, roll to penetrate and resolve the shooting attack with absolutely no effect. However we know this is a waste of time so we don't bother making such pointless rolls. Automatically Appended Next Post: Rigid: clearly you misunderstood that +1S is a powers effect and at no point are you given permission to accumulate the same effect twice. You may resolve the second Hammerhand all you want, but it's effect may only be cumulative with a different power to itself. Essentially you're wasting time like those poor guardsmen. Automatically Appended Next Post: So yes you have permission to resolve any and all powers. However the rules for resolving a psychic power only permit different powers effects to be cumulative. Resolving doesn't intrinsically mean apply the effect fully or at all.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/05/04 23:27:23
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/05 02:22:08
Subject: hammer hand
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Bausk wrote:However the rules for resolving a psychic power only permit different powers effects to be cumulative.
[citation needed]
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/05 02:51:24
Subject: hammer hand
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Bask - yet for the specific effect +1S we DO HAVE permission to accumulate. It is in page two
You are making up a spurious requirement to have a specific permission to accumulate THE CYPUMULATIVE OPERATOR just because it is a psychic power, while ignoring tht general permission has been given, and absent any restriction that permission being revoked, it still stands.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/05 03:08:28
Subject: hammer hand
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The Hive Mind
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Bausk wrote:Rigid: clearly you misunderstood that +1S is a powers effect and at no point are you given permission to accumulate the same effect twice. You may resolve the second Hammerhand all you want, but it's effect may only be cumulative with a different power to itself. Essentially you're wasting time like those poor guardsmen.
Does the unit have multiple modifiers that need to be applied, or not?
If not, can you cite a rule supporting that?
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/05 03:44:26
Subject: hammer hand
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
Armageddon, Pry System, Armageddon Sector, Armageddon Sub-sector, Segmentum Solar.
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Unit: Have done look back though the posts and you will find the page number and quote.
Nos: Page two is not the rules for psykers, cite something relevant for a change.
Rigid: No it does not as at no point are you given permission to apply the same powers effect twice unlike powers like Symphony of Pain which has such permission detailed in its rules.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/05 04:00:54
Subject: hammer hand
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Bausk wrote:Rigid: No it does not as at no point are you given permission to apply the same powers effect twice unlike powers like Symphony of Pain which has such permission detailed in its rules.
Here is where your argument falls apart.
"Assuming that the Psychic test was passed and the enemy did not nullify it through a successful Deny the \Witch roll, you can now resolve the psychic power according to instructions in its entry. " (68)
Point 1) Hammerhand instructs you to apply a +1 to the unit's Strength score. Agreed?
Point 2) We have permission for multiple Psykers that are in the same unit to cast Hammerhand. Agreed?
Point 3) Page 2, Multiple modifiers, deals with the situation where you have multiple additions or subtractions applied to a single model or unit. Agreed?
If you do not agree please cite some actual rules restricting any of these rules.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/05 04:22:11
Subject: hammer hand
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Tea-Kettle of Blood
Adelaide, South Australia
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Bausk wrote:Again denial is not implied. You have permission to resolve the power following the full rules for resolving the power. The power and it's effects are not inherently permitted to be cumulative, this is the assumption being made that is incorrect.
In the rules for resolving powers we are given permission to accumulate the effects pf different powers. Thus reqire permission for same powers effects to be cumulative as per the example in my previous post.
I make no such assumption, page 2 explicitly states multiple modifiers are applied cumulatively. The effect of Hammerhand is a modifier, ergo, it can be applied cumulatively.
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Ailaros wrote:You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.
"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/05 04:29:11
Subject: hammer hand
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Bausk wrote:Unit: Have done look back though the posts and you will find the page number and quote.
Having looked back throughout the whole thread, I have not seen a single quote which says that only different psychic powers are cumulative. I saw a few that say that different psychic powers are cumulative, but that's just permission for different psychic powers to be cumulative - I didn't see anything forbidding the same psychic power to be cumulative.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/05 04:29:25
Subject: hammer hand
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
Armageddon, Pry System, Armageddon Sector, Armageddon Sub-sector, Segmentum Solar.
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DR: Yes you may resolve the power, read resolving psychic powers without assumed permission for any power, different or the same, to be cumulative. knowing that different means differnt powers not casters as a single caster cannot manifest thr same power twice in a turn.
1) Hammerhands effect is +1S applied before multplication. The distinction of it being its effect is important.
2) Permission is granted for many psykers to manifest the same power with the same target. Absolutely correct, however it may be pointless.
3) At this point you jump the gun and miss the resolution rules and go straight to application of the effect.
Page two is a mechanic for many things, it is not however permission for accumulation of effects.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/05 04:40:13
Subject: hammer hand
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Bausk wrote:Page two is a mechanic for many things, it is not however permission for accumulation of effects.
And here is where your argument falls apart when dealing with Multiple +1 modifiers. Re-read page 2.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/05/05 04:42:04
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/05 04:41:42
Subject: hammer hand
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
Armageddon, Pry System, Armageddon Sector, Armageddon Sub-sector, Segmentum Solar.
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PR: Page two is not permission for multiples of the same powers effect to be cumulative, just because a powers effect is a modifier it doesn't change the fact it is a power and follow the powers rules before page two is considered.
Unit: Correct, you also won't find any quotes giving permission for same powers effects to be cumulative only the quote for different powers. It is only assumed that same powers effects may be cumulative based on one of two flawed misconceptions.
1) Assumed Accumulation from permission to resolve. Which has been shown that we can resolve to no added or no effect.
2) Assumed Accumulation from skipping the rules for resolution and just applying the effect to claim page two as permission for Accumulation. Which again has been proven to be incorrect.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/05 04:42:08
Subject: hammer hand
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Or are you saying that something restricts you from resolving "the psychic power according to instructions in its entry." (68)?
If so please cite the rule that restricts a psyker from resolving a second casting of Hammerhand on a single unit.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/05 04:45:09
Subject: Re:hammer hand
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Tea-Kettle of Blood
Adelaide, South Australia
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As long as we're ignoring the explicit statement that multiple modifiers are cumulative on page 2, I'd very much like to have someone prove, either empirically or logically, that an assumption of non-cumulation is even capable of trumping a rules-based permission to apply an effect in a permissive ruleset.
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Ailaros wrote:You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.
"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" |
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