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Saying Dreadnoughts are bad because they're Walkers is like saying Haruspices are good because they're Monstrous Creatures.
Dreadnoughts are bad because they're Dreadnoughts.

I don't think its the walkers rules that are bad, just a couple MC's that make them look bad. GUOs used to be considered very durable and the paid for it by having to slowly footslog to try to get into melee. The riptide takes a similar statline, slaps a 2+ save on it, gives it a jet pack, and arms it with some heavy duty guns; all for a similar cost. The rules are fine, its specific units that are poorly done.

JubbJubbz wrote:
I don't think its the walkers rules that are bad, just a couple MC's that make them look bad. GUOs used to be considered very durable and the paid for it by having to slowly footslog to try to get into melee. The riptide takes a similar statline, slaps a 2+ save on it, gives it a jet pack, and arms it with some heavy duty guns; all for a similar cost. The rules are fine, its specific units that are poorly done.

They didn't need to footslog, GUO 4th edition was able to deepstrike, and 3rd edition GUO could assault as soon as it arrived via daemonic summoning or possession.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

JubbJubbz wrote:
I don't think its the walkers rules that are bad, just a couple MC's that make them look bad. GUOs used to be considered very durable and the paid for it by having to slowly footslog to try to get into melee. The riptide takes a similar statline, slaps a 2+ save on it, gives it a jet pack, and arms it with some heavy duty guns; all for a similar cost. The rules are fine, its specific units that are poorly done.

They didn't need to footslog, GUO 4th edition was able to deepstrike, and 3rd edition GUO could assault as soon as it arrived via daemonic summoning or possession.

Very true, but I think the point remains they had nowhere near the offensive capability as the current top tier MC's. They can still deepstrike but DS heavy tactics have always seemed kinda risky to me.

HoW and Smash sound good.

Back in earlier editions walkers used to get a big bonus to combat resolution. Add some bonuses to combat resolution & psychology immune walkers might start running down MCs.

When you look at the cases with newer Monstrous Creatures coming into 40k (Whraithknight and Riptide) you have to understand that there really wasn't much 2+ save Shooti MCs out there. Tyranids had a few but they weren't all that competitive due to mobility issues.

When the Riptide came into the world 40k passed gas that should have ended the hobby and killed upper management. Instead people adapted by actually playing Tau. (If anyone was at Adepticon, you know what I mean... (Trip-Tides, Trip-Tides and Wraithknights everywhere) So you give something Mobility, throw in an absurd amount of fire power, then give it natural immunity to being double toughness ID'd AND a 2+ save, it sets the bar for broken.

You then take things that are like Daemon Princes and their removal of EW (? We still don't get this GW) or the fact you can no longer get them naturally T6 through Nurgle and you basically make them moot, when you throw a Daemon Prince at a Riptide you'd expect that Riptide to never be able to hit that Daemon Prince. Especially considering the massive difference in Weapon Skill, but someone in the department of rules decided that hitting things should never go beyond needing 5s (Fail btw) so even 1 lucky hit from a Riptide means your Daemon Prince who is no longer EW no longer T6 is dead if he fails his 5+.

Walkers became obsolete because of the above. I know a lot of people like their War Walkers and what not, heck, I love my Defiler, but their armor values suck, and the simple fact that you can destroy them on a lucky roll of 6 simply means they are inferior.

Think the only Tyranid 2+ is the swarmlord or a nonflying tyrant that took the armor upgrade, which kinda disappeared when wings came into the scene lol. Could be wrong, but i dont remember seeing anything better than 3+ outside those two after many, many battles with a tyranid friend while stationed in SKorea.

Walkers arent necessarily bad, but 9/10 of them are bad because of CC rules mainly. I play Tau, and quite frankly i'd still use the Riptide if it was an AV13 walker because its a GUN platform, i dont care about melee capabilities on a gun platform lol. Which is why ironclads or war walkers are still seen alot, they shoot they dont punch.


Also to the guy above, i agree the never hitting on 6s or unable to attack is dumb. My tau are WS2 outside the Commanders/Farsight, they shouldnt be able to even attempt to attack something with WS7+ lol. I dont mind the 3+ minimum to hit though.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Think the only Tyranid 2+ is the swarmlord or a nonflying tyrant that took the armor upgrade, which kinda disappeared when wings came into the scene lol. Could be wrong, but i dont remember seeing anything better than 3+ outside those two after many, many battles with a tyranid friend while stationed in SKorea.

Nah, the Swarmlord only ever had a 3+ armour save. Hive Tyrants used to be able to spend 40 points on a 2+ save (but you couldn't buy it and Wings) and Tyrannofices had a 2+ save but were ridiculously overpriced. In the new book the Hive Tyrant's 2+ option was removed but the Tyrannofex got a points reduction and is now actually worth fielding.
So yeah, we have a 2+ save.

Can someone name a vehicle that gets to make use of the more than two DCCW rule? I haven't found a vehicle yet with more than two at the most.

I believe Killa Kans are able to have up to 4.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I believe Killa Kans are able to have up to 4.

Deff Dreads too.

Walkers became obsolete because of the above. I know a lot of people like their War Walkers and what not, heck, I love my Defiler, but their armor values suck, and the simple fact that you can destroy them on a lucky roll of 6 simply means they are inferior.

Honestly, walkers for 5th edition were pretty meh in melee as well, but not as bad as in 6th.

With the addition of Hull Points, Grenades on WS, and the fact that walkers still put out a negilible amount of attacks means that if they get used, they are stuck in the 5th edition autocannon role of ranged.

Even back then Killa kans were just shooty, it was better to dakkawalker then meleewalker, and that's been an issue for two editions now.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Can someone name a vehicle that gets to make use of the more than two DCCW rule? I haven't found a vehicle yet with more than two at the most.

Defilers, and if you want them to be any good in melee for their cost you're gonna have to trade in both their guns for more arms.

 Kain wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Can someone name a vehicle that gets to make use of the more than two DCCW rule? I haven't found a vehicle yet with more than two at the most.

Defilers, and if you want them to be any good in melee for their cost you're gonna have to trade in both their guns for more arms.

I actually find this to be a worthwhile trade, given those guns are pretty much useless when firing the battlecannon. I generally replace the Reaper autocannon with another powerfist (for five attacks), but leave on the heavy flamer as this is still useful on overwatch - and the power scourge makes an overpriced unit far too costly.